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ORIGINAL: bluestone

good post, qtman.



I don't think the answer is decking the church in a NASCAR motiff, or using hubcaps for offering plates.

The answer is realizing that sin is keeping people from church, sin is causing friction among believers, and sin is wrecking lives, relationships, and causing people to see other "reasons" for our failing churches.

Instead of preaching women need to back off and men need to feel comfortable, we need to get back to preaching Christ crucified for the atonement of sin, and risen from the dead, sitting on the right hand of the Father interceding on our behalf.
There . A sermon from a woman.

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ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

I think it's quite simple why there are a lack of men (not making any excuses however) . The church (in general) hardly looks any different than a worldly social club. In many churches now, people are trying so hard to build numbers that they hardly allow the Holy Spirit to dwell in them. The Bible states clearly "IF I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." I think we really have to look at this issue in the spiritual and not in the flesh. Get back to the basic and Get back to Jesus.

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I just don't see how we can read His Word and not see that He wants to use men to take the lead, and will hold them accountable, in fulfilling it.

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

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If we want a look at the masculine extreme, we already have at least two false religions that cater to the egos of men - Mormons and Islam.

Yes, these represent the corruption of God's masculine ideal. All the more reason for christians and churches to project a more biblically masculine alternative. Would Islam have such an appeal to men (especially black men) if todays' church were more biblically masculine?
We also have some churches that cater to corrupted feminine ideals, don't we?

I HATE replies that go on several screens, but especially annoying are ones where multiple people are addressed in the same post... like we're not worth your time to address individually on each issue. Just dismiss the lot of us with one fell swoop.

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

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I just don't see how we can read His Word and not see that He wants to use men to take the lead, and will hold them accountable, in fulfilling it.

For sake of space I shortened you post down to the above quote. And I agree with it 100%. I don't think you will get an argument out of anyone here about this.

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Islam and Mormonism appeal to men, even large numbers of black men, because the ground is level at the foot of the cross - it doesn't play to their worldly male ego or a false sense of superiority. Even when men are given gender-based responsibilty in scripture, it is as Servant-Leader, not lord & master dominance like the growing cults and false religions.

Christianity does not appeal to the world and Jesus told us it wouldn't because it is at odds with the world's values. I'm not inclined to change the faith to meet worldly values in the hopes that will draw in more males - draw them into something no longer what Jesus designed.

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Okay, in summary, our faith, which was started by God in the form of a man, who then chose twelve men to disciple and build His church and then commissioned them to go into the world, is now seriously lacking in faithful men. Blame who you will, or ignore/minimize the issue...

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Those men would be in church if it mattered to them and they'd be leading change if the church was too "feminized" instead of sleeping late on Sunday or golfing or watching TV or off to the beach.

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Okay, in summary, our faith, which was started by God in the form of a man, who then chose twelve men to disciple and build His church and then commissioned them to go into the world, is now seriously lacking in faithful men. Blame who you will, or ignore/minimize the issue...

Just like in the NT, all the men went into hiding when things got tough but who stuck by Jesus on the cross and who were first at the empty tomb?

You probably read some preppy "Christian" men's magazine with a bunch of pyscho-babble about the problem with the church and now feel called on a mission, but the mission is to accuse the Church for the sorry-ness of some men. Those men would be in church if it mattered to them and they'd be leading change if the church was too "feminized" instead of sleeping late on Sunday or golfing or watching TV or off to the beach.

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ORIGINAL: cdef

Something is really nagging at me. I am wondering about it. I hope this scares no one off, because I am doing some "thinking out loud", I guess, and I would like some response, whether agreeable or not. Scripture would be wonderful.

What I am thinking about is the scripture in Genesis 3, I think, where it says that the women would desire the men's family position as head of the family...would desire to lead and push men back. (Oh, it scares me to say this!) We, as a generation of women, have done this almost as a nation (I live in the U.S.). We push. We belittle in humor. We, in many senses, emasculate men. Our TV comedies make men look like fools. Our common TV commercials make them look like idiots. There are those who cry for a "woman in the Whitehouse" not because of her political agenda so much as because she is a woman. And I wonder if we are now suffering the consequences of our doing exactly what Genesis says, forcing our way in, demanding that place, perhaps even telling our Creator and His word to "GET LOST".

Look at the churches. The big cry is that the churches are feminized. (I don't understand that...really...but that is what they say.) And if I look around, what I see is mainly women in the congregations...in the choirs...as teachers.

Men are talking about their problems with porn as though it is "normal" for Christian men. Should it be for Christians...really? They talk about looking at other women in a way they should not as though that, too, is normal for Christians. Should it be...really?

Have we actually done this to the men because we have pushed our way into an area in the family where we don't belong, and now, we are suffering the consequences? And part of the consequences is that we HAVE to take leadership because the men are so emasculated that they don't realize that they have the inner strength NOT TO BE? We, as women, have so weakened them?

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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I think men, in general, have given up their God-given leadership to women...be it church leadership, family or business leadership.

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

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I just don't see how we can read His Word and not see that He wants to use men to take the lead, and will hold them accountable, in fulfilling it.

For sake of space I shortened you post down to the above quote. And I agree with it 100%. I don't think you will get an argument out of anyone here about this.

You'd be surprised what I've gotten about this.
Okay, in summary, our faith, which was started by God in the form of a man, who then chose twelve men to disciple and build His church and then commissioned them to go into the world, is now seriously lacking in faithful men. Blame who you will, or ignore/minimize the issue, but you can't possibly deny that the problem exists. If you agree with my quoted statement above, prayerfully consider how God can move among us to bring all of us into His stated will, and hopefully not remove our lamp stand for our disobedience.
Great debate, folks. Thanks for helping me sharpen my position. See you in another thread.
BRB

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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
My opinion is that truly godly women need to step out of those shoes right now. If that means those shoes go unfilled, so be it. But when women step into men's roles, they do not help the situation, they only compound the sin and enable it to continue.

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You probably read some preppy "Christian" men's magazine with a bunch of pyscho-babble about the problem with the church and now feel called on a mission, but the mission is to accuse the Church for the sorry-ness of some men. Those men would be in church if it mattered to them and they'd be leading change if the church was too "feminized" instead of sleeping late on Sunday or golfing or watching TV or off to the beach.

quote:

You probably read some preppy "Christian" men's magazine with a bunch of pyscho-babble about the problem with the church and now feel called on a mission, but the mission is to accuse the Church for the sorry-ness of some men. Those men would be in church if it mattered to them and they'd be leading change if the church was too "feminized" instead of sleeping late on Sunday or golfing or watching TV or off to the beach.

quote:

What I am thinking about is the scripture in Genesis 3, I think, where it says that the women would desire the men's family position as head of the family...would desire to lead and push men back. (Oh, it scares me to say this!) We, as a generation of women, have done this almost as a nation (I live in the U.S.). We push. We belittle in humor. We, in many senses, emasculate men. Our TV comedies make men look like fools. Our common TV commercials make them look like idiots. There are those who cry for a "woman in the Whitehouse" not because of her political agenda so much as because she is a woman. And I wonder if we are now suffering the consequences of our doing exactly what Genesis says, forcing our way in, demanding that place, perhaps even telling our Creator and His word to "GET LOST".