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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 1:57:26 PM
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revbob4God
Posts: 602
Joined: 7/25/2008
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Backrow! Praise Jesus, It is good to have you here son, How ya been?
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 1:58:43 PM
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revbob4God
Posts: 602
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Backrow, I started a new thread in Men only and would greatly appreciate your input, Brother.
God Bless,
Reverend Bob
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 1:59:31 PM
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LoyalFriend
Posts: 134
Joined: 9/29/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Where are the men?
That is a most excellent question. We have a mega church here in town that touts they target MEN and that is their main focus. The problem is, they are seriously lacking men to lead their small groups. However, there seems to be a plethora of women willing to step in. Makes one wonder, doesn't it, just where ARE the men?
I would like to see the men step up and lead, and I would gladly support and encourage them. With the exception of the single moms group I attend, I want a man to lead study groups I go to. I believe men should be the spiritual leaders. JMHO
The thing is men are to be leaders but they are not. Blaming women is not being a man. A man takes ownership of his decisions.
I would be fine with more men moving into church leadership positions too for I believe that is where they belong.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:11:30 PM
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revbob4God
Posts: 602
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
The thing is men are to be leaders but they are not. Blaming women is not being a man. A man takes ownership of his decisions.
Good point. But I do hope you are speaking of your particular church and not in general.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:17:28 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4250
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
We can continue to deny the problem and/or use the same tired male-bashing about how it's all the men's fault (which only adds to the problem), or we can acknowledge it and humbly ask God to redeem His men, and to be open to how He can use each of us.
The same tired woman bashing is no better.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:18:33 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 386
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
LoyalFriend
The thing is men are to be leaders but they are not. Blaming women is not being a man. A man takes ownership of his decisions.
I would be fine with more men moving into church leadership positions too for I believe that is where they belong.
We're not blaming women. Most of what you hear is in response to people blaming men. Actually, in this growing movement, you see a lot of loving, patient reasoning to both men and women, trying to get them to see the problem. Pointing out the problem can be threatening to both controlling women AND feminized men.
If men didn't want tot take ownership of this problem, believe me, we wouldn't take the grief.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:26:12 PM
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LoyalFriend
Posts: 134
Joined: 9/29/2007
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Let's say change is needed to reach men then what exactly would that be?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:51:43 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Having fun, yes - but he can get that anywhere. Transparency, yes - in the sense of being real. Authentic love, not so much, at least not consciously - I'd say respect (and self respect)that comes from meeting a challenge or higher calling.
one issue I did not mention because it is a sensitive one is that men (in general) abhor accountability...especially from other men. Don't get me wrong, they love the idea of it, but do not want anyone holding them accountable. Of course, it would be good for everyone else.
Men (in general) don't like to be called on their garbage and then be held accountable to make a change.
Man's sin? "It's the woman you gave me Lord...."
And yeh  I'm well aware of woman's sin...thank you but this is not about women this particular go around.
When you stand before the Lord, are you seriously going to say you didn't connect with a body of believers because some woman said mean things? God would wonder (as do many of us here) why you didn't continue looking for another body, instead of making excuses.
We, as women love ya'll, but dude...
zip it up gentleman...and make the change.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 2:59:26 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalFriend
Let's say change is needed to reach men then what exactly would that be?
I'm all for this...we have been canvassing our community and asking people about going to church, etc.
Our community is blue collar, 2 income families with 2-3 kids. Fact is, they're tired. All of them.
Dad and mom both work all week long, then come home to care for their kids, homework, ball practice, etc. etc. etc. and then come the weekend they are exhausted. Saturdays are spent caring for their homes, i.e. lawncare, painting, etc. and Sunday mornings, they just want to sleep in, relax, have breakfast as a family and maybe have a couple of hours to themselves.
So...we get it. It's tough. What we've been trying to do is see if there is some magical formula that'll work. So far there is not.
The only thing we found is men will meet with one another during the week, as well as the women doing the same and then they are willing to come together as a family for worship on the weekend. There appears to be more unity as a family with dad getting the interaction he needs with godly men and mom have the same venue with women.
Not sure what that really means, but that's what happened so far.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 3:57:19 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10604
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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Well, I know some of you will be annoyed at my post because I'm a woman who tells it like I see and I'm not afraid to pull punches, but here you go.
#1. I go to a church where the Pastors are all on board with this "de-feminizing" the church thing and even the men are sick of it. Contrary to what some of you think, some of the "feminine" aspects of church are not feminine - they are what God calls us to: to be compassionate, to care for one another, the encourage one another, to be accountable to one another, to be passionate about our Lord, to love each other. If men are only about loud grunting, chest banging, hunting, competition and stone decor, the Church is in serious trouble. Some of you need to spend some time studying God's Word 'cause Jesus and the men of God in Scripture are apparently too feminized. They wept. They had compassion. They loved God's creation - including flowers (anyone recall the lillies of the field). They were very passionate for God. They loved. They cared. They were men. Manly men.
#2 Everyone has the same number of hours in the day. We prioritize how we spend those hours. If you want to be a man of God, then God has to be a priority to you. I am a full-time working, single, homeowner. I work all week long. I care for my home. I pay my bills. I keep my car working. I mow my lawn. I take my garbage out. I manage my finances. I am starting to work on a major career change. Yes, I get tired. Yes, it would be easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings and not be involved in the ministry of the church. But then, my life isn't about me now is it? I am not my own. I was bought at a price. I need to remember that.
#3 Leaders lead. They don't make excuses. It's not about "controlling women". It's not about "too many responsibilities". It's not about kleenex in the pews or flowers in the sanctuary. From what I see in this thread, there is a reason that so many churches are suffering from lack of leadership. We don't have very many leaders.
And I can honestly say, that some of you men wouldn't last 5 minutes in my shoes if you think the excuses given here are legitimate. Not 5 minutes. I'd love to share about the challenges I face and combat on a daily basis. 
By the way: I am very, very grateful that there are many men out there who ARE leaders and who know what being a man of God is all about (and it's not testoterone). Hopefully some of you will meet some of these men and be humble enough to learn from them.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 4:37:56 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 386
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Well, I know some of you will be annoyed at my post because I'm a woman who tells it like I see and I'm not afraid to pull punches, but here you go.
Good on you, phosadaud. Men appreciated un-pulled punches.
quote:
#1. I go to a church where the Pastors are all on board with this "de-feminizing" the church thing and even the men are sick of it. Contrary to what some of you think, some of the "feminine" aspects of church are not feminine - they are what God calls us to: to be compassionate, to care for one another, the encourage one another, to be accountable to one another, to be passionate about our Lord, to love each other. If men are only about loud grunting, chest banging, hunting, competition and stone decor, the Church is in serious trouble. Some of you need to spend some time studying God's Word 'cause Jesus and the men of God in Scripture are apparently too feminized. They wept. They had compassion. They loved God's creation - including flowers (anyone recall the lillies of the field). They were very passionate for God. They loved. They cared. They were men. Manly men.
Any time you try to confront a problem in church by trying new things you end up with a lot of misses. A lot of what's proposed to draw men in is pretty shallow and probably would get old quick. That's why I think we need to get beneath the surface issues, both the chest-thumping and the flowers.
Years ago, when I was a young man, one-on-one discipleship by godly, older men was insrumental in my growth. The church eventually moved away from that towards seeker-sensitivity and group dynamics, which lend themselves to superficiality. We need to return to the idea of discipleship (mentoring, if you prefer) and accountability. Men WILL respond, but it will take time. We didn't get to this point over night.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 5:23:06 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
#2 Everyone has the same number of hours in the day. We prioritize how we spend those hours. If you want to be a man of God, then God has to be a priority to you. I am a full-time working, single, homeowner. I work all week long. I care for my home. I pay my bills. I keep my car working. I mow my lawn. I take my garbage out. I manage my finances. I am starting to work on a major career change. Yes, I get tired. Yes, it would be easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings and not be involved in the ministry of the church. But then, my life isn't about me now is it? I am not my own. I was bought at a price. I need to remember that.
And I can honestly say, that some of you men wouldn't last 5 minutes in my shoes if you think the excuses given here are legitimate. Not 5 minutes. I'd love to share about the challenges I face and combat on a daily basis.
Excuses? were there any 'excuses' for not being in church on Sunday mornings for worship services..with regards to "number of hours in the day"? That was the "topic" of a conversation I had in this thread I had a few days ago......going on Sunday mornings isn't the issue, because men, at least at my church, DO attend.....in great numbers.
What I typically do NOT put into my schedule are the "small group bible studies", and the many other things at church throughout the week.....my wife does, though, as she has the time to do more of that kind of thing. She can go to bible study on Tuesday or Wednesday morning, for instance, for obvious reasons.....women in our church have the TIME during the week to do all of those activities....(we have a VERY high percentage of "stay at home moms")......but, when sunday DOES come, the men come to church. (and, for the friday morning bible study.....700-800 each week).....
SO, let's do a quick "survey".....related to some statistics from the OP......here are the two that are Iam most curious about......
quote:
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
I don't know about YOUR church, but, these numbers and statistics do not "represent" my church at all.
The percentage of married, churchgoing women worshipping without their husbands is MUCH lower....perhaps maybe 10%-15% at most.....(the "demographics" of our church is such that many men travel on business....for example: I go to France several times a year, and sometimes do have a 10-day trip scheduled over a weekend.....airline pilots....doctors, etc...etc...).....not EVERY husband is there EVERY sunday....(though, not every wife is either....home with a sick kid, or she is home sick herself)....
AND, the adult crowd at our church is MUCH closer to 50/50 than what these "statistics" show.....maybe on some sundays there are MORE men than women......it wouldn't suprise me.
SO....how about YOUR church? do these statistics match your church? or, is it different?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 8:10:45 PM
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LoyalFriend
Posts: 134
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline
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Our church is about a 50/50 split. With alot of active involved men too.
Those lopsided stats do not represent our church.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 9:05:21 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10604
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
#2 Everyone has the same number of hours in the day. We prioritize how we spend those hours. If you want to be a man of God, then God has to be a priority to you. I am a full-time working, single, homeowner. I work all week long. I care for my home. I pay my bills. I keep my car working. I mow my lawn. I take my garbage out. I manage my finances. I am starting to work on a major career change. Yes, I get tired. Yes, it would be easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings and not be involved in the ministry of the church. But then, my life isn't about me now is it? I am not my own. I was bought at a price. I need to remember that.
And I can honestly say, that some of you men wouldn't last 5 minutes in my shoes if you think the excuses given here are legitimate. Not 5 minutes. I'd love to share about the challenges I face and combat on a daily basis.
Excuses? were there any 'excuses' for not being in church on Sunday mornings for worship services..with regards to "number of hours in the day"? That was the "topic" of a conversation I had in this thread I had a few days ago......going on Sunday mornings isn't the issue, because men, at least at my church, DO attend.....in great numbers.
What I typically do NOT put into my schedule are the "small group bible studies", and the many other things at church throughout the week.....my wife does, though, as she has the time to do more of that kind of thing. She can go to bible study on Tuesday or Wednesday morning, for instance, for obvious reasons.....women in our church have the TIME during the week to do all of those activities....(we have a VERY high percentage of "stay at home moms")......but, when sunday DOES come, the men come to church. (and, for the friday morning bible study.....700-800 each week).....
SO, let's do a quick "survey".....related to some statistics from the OP......here are the two that are Iam most curious about......
quote:
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
I don't know about YOUR church, but, these numbers and statistics do not "represent" my church at all.
The percentage of married, churchgoing women worshipping without their husbands is MUCH lower....perhaps maybe 10%-15% at most.....(the "demographics" of our church is such that many men travel on business....for example: I go to France several times a year, and sometimes do have a 10-day trip scheduled over a weekend.....airline pilots....doctors, etc...etc...).....not EVERY husband is there EVERY sunday....(though, not every wife is either....home with a sick kid, or she is home sick herself)....
AND, the adult crowd at our church is MUCH closer to 50/50 than what these "statistics" show.....maybe on some sundays there are MORE men than women......it wouldn't suprise me.
SO....how about YOUR church? do these statistics match your church? or, is it different?
I think maybe I wasn't clear. I was responding the OP idea that men are leaving the church (not going to church at all) - not how many hours is spent each week in activities. That is not the issue to me - one person donating an hour each week can be a huge sacrifice while another spending all day at church is nothing.
As far as my church - we probably have slightly more women than men although there are many, many men - and many male leaders. Which is precisely my point regarding excuses. I do not believe flowers in the sanctuary, kleenex in the pews and "mushy" praise and worship songs is a valid reason for anyone leaving the church.
(Just a note - I am following 3 threads on this subject so I may be confusing some of them)
The fact of the matter is there are many things that don't personally speak to me in my church: The sound level of the music. Some of the singing styles (heavy) of some of the worship leaders. That it took several years to get a cross in our sanctuary. The sermon after sermon on marriage and parenting (I am not a wife or a mother). Women's events are all geared to moms and frilly (I'm not frilly). Hey, they painted the ceilings of our facility black! Ick! Etc, etc.
The fact is, there will always be things that don't "speak to us", that aren't "our style", that are uncomfortable for us, etc. Here's the rub though: That's part of living in the Body. It's not all about me, myself and I.
And sometimes those things that make us uncomfortable, make us uncomfortable because God wants to stretch us and get us out of a rut. If you can't express your emotions - guess what! God wants to teach you! If you don't have a firm foundation - God wants to build one! If you are inhibited in your worship - God wants to free you! If you aren't an example - God wants to make you one! If your eyes are stuck on your and your needs - God wants you to see your neighbor and their needs!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: where are the men? - 7/30/2008 10:46:06 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 386
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
#2 Everyone has the same number of hours in the day. We prioritize how we spend those hours. If you want to be a man of God, then God has to be a priority to you. I am a full-time working, single, homeowner. I work all week long. I care for my home. I pay my bills. I keep my car working. I mow my lawn. I take my garbage out. I manage my finances. I am starting to work on a major career change. Yes, I get tired. Yes, it would be easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings and not be involved in the ministry of the church. But then, my life isn't about me now is it? I am not my own. I was bought at a price. I need to remember that.
And I can honestly say, that some of you men wouldn't last 5 minutes in my shoes if you think the excuses given here are legitimate. Not 5 minutes. I'd love to share about the challenges I face and combat on a daily basis.
Excuses? were there any 'excuses' for not being in church on Sunday mornings for worship services..with regards to "number of hours in the day"? That was the "topic" of a conversation I had in this thread I had a few days ago......going on Sunday mornings isn't the issue, because men, at least at my church, DO attend.....in great numbers.
What I typically do NOT put into my schedule are the "small group bible studies", and the many other things at church throughout the week.....my wife does, though, as she has the time to do more of that kind of thing. She can go to bible study on Tuesday or Wednesday morning, for instance, for obvious reasons.....women in our church have the TIME during the week to do all of those activities....(we have a VERY high percentage of "stay at home moms")......but, when sunday DOES come, the men come to church. (and, for the friday morning bible study.....700-800 each week).....
SO, let's do a quick "survey".....related to some statistics from the OP......here are the two that are Iam most curious about......
quote:
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
I don't know about YOUR church, but, these numbers and statistics do not "represent" my church at all.
The percentage of married, churchgoing women worshipping without their husbands is MUCH lower....perhaps maybe 10%-15% at most.....(the "demographics" of our church is such that many men travel on business....for example: I go to France several times a year, and sometimes do have a 10-day trip scheduled over a weekend.....airline pilots....doctors, etc...etc...).....not EVERY husband is there EVERY sunday....(though, not every wife is either....home with a sick kid, or she is home sick herself)....
AND, the adult crowd at our church is MUCH closer to 50/50 than what these "statistics" show.....maybe on some sundays there are MORE men than women......it wouldn't suprise me.
SO....how about YOUR church? do these statistics match your church? or, is it different?
I've recently relocated and am attending a new, small church. It's probably close to the stats above (60-40). So was my previous mega church. That's why I latched on to this issue. I saw it for years, and didn't realize others saw it happening, too.
Kernsfamily, I'll bet if you looked closer at your church, or actually counted, you'd see there are more women. Just a hunch.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 11:05:44 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
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We have excellent male leaders in our church. Pastor's, Eder's, Teacher's, Small Group Leaders, VBS Coordinator's, Custodian's, Groundskeeper's, and many others, including mission workers, shut-in visitation coordinator's etc so I really can't relate to someone who says the "men will not lead" Some of our leader's are husband and wife teams, some are not....but I don't judge a leader based on gender alone.
I would say if you want more balance in the church start recruiting in your own neighborhood and see what happens. Praying and evangelizing will get better results than bashing and blaming the opposite sex.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 12:19:33 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 386
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
Kernsfamily, I'll bet if you looked closer at your church, or actually counted, you'd see there are more women. Just a hunch.
quote:
Good grief! The man just gave you a break down of the representation at his church! How much closer must he look? Just until he agrees with you. 
I'm just saying that I would have said the same thing about my old church. But when I actually started looking more closely, I realized that there indeed were more women than men. I first noticed it among the college age ministry's summer missions teams, which had about 2/3-3/4 girls (which casts doubts on the 'men working=not going to church' theory). Then I started looking at the career ministry I attended. Bingo, same breakdown. There were still thousands of men attending the church, but the women outnumbered them in every ministry. I did NOT see the 25% of married women alone, but I wasn't looking for it. I have seen it at our new church, though. And my new wife believes it, too (and she's not very sympathetic to this whole issue).
It sounded like kernsfamily was estimating. I'd be willing to bet if they looked at the hard numbers from the attendance rolls, they'd see something amiss. Like I said, just a hunch.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 12:33:31 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
It sounded like kernsfamily was estimating. I'd be willing to bet if they looked at the hard numbers from the attendance rolls, they'd see something amiss. Like I said, just a hunch.
the weekend is upon us.
I will do some counting this weekend while in church.....and report back on monday. (I highly doubt that we have "attendance rolls" that specify male/female)....we have a hard enough time figuring out the raw numbers of how many attended!
(it's going to have to be a "sampling" counting of a section or two.....as I am not going to be able to count all 5,000+ or so that's in our 9:15 service)....but, it'll give me a "statistical" number....we shall see....
it helps that we typically sit on the edge of the "upper balcony".....i can easily look down onto the main floor seating sections and count away!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 12:38:52 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
I'm just saying that I would have said the same thing about my old church. But when I actually started looking more closely, I realized that there indeed were more women than men. I first noticed it among the college age ministry's summer missions teams, which had about 2/3-3/4 girls (which casts doubts on the 'men working=not going to church' theory). Then I started looking at the career ministry I attended. Bingo, same breakdown. There were still thousands of men attending the church, but the women outnumbered them in every ministry. I did NOT see the 25% of married women alone, but I wasn't looking for it. I have seen it at our new church, though. And my new wife believes it, too (and she's not very sympathetic to this whole issue).
It sounded like kernsfamily was estimating. I'd be willing to bet if they looked at the hard numbers from the attendance rolls, they'd see something amiss. Like I said, just a hunch.
As apoint of reference, some of my earliest memories were going to church in the mid-50s. From then until my teen years, the ratio was about 85% women to 15% men and, at times, was even further off balance. Men in their early 30s through 40s were as rare as hen's teeth. So I see a huge improvement over my early years.
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 12:47:12 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
There were still thousands of men attending the church, but the women outnumbered them in every ministry.
RIGHT....men DO attend sunday morning church.....
women WOULD outnumber them in many ministries/bible studies....because women typically have MORE TIME to devote to ministries....which, meet and gather at different times during the week.....(and, that makes men being able to attend easily a bit more difficult)....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: where are the men? - 7/31/2008 2:08:35 PM
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the_mom
Posts: 42
Joined: 11/9/2006
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
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Don't really have these type of concerns.
