RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 9:47:11 PM
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manda59
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The question is surely, Sideways, whether making a big issue of this what is best for the child?
As Tara P said:
quote:
You could go to your ex and demand that he take her to a Catholic church. You could go to the court and demand that he not take her to his church. But what is your goal and how will this really help your child adjust to the divorce? Will this help your dd fit into her step-family?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/26/2008 12:17:18 AM
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MrsTracy72
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
This wasn't something he "just said". He made a legal agreement in court to this effect, and he broke that agreement without so much as a word to his wife.
If his convictions truely changed, and he was an honorable man, he would've approached his wife or one to court to change the divorce decree. No one is saying that it's wrong for him to become Protestant, but he did not handle this well at all concerning the joint raising of his daughter.
But I suppose I can just stop paying my mortgage if God tells me to stop? Why is the word of a Christian worth anything if they can break it without trying to work things out in an honorable fashion?
He may have signed a legal binding agreement in court, but at the same time, they both not only signed legal binding agreements that they were married and stood in that chuch and made promises go God to stay married. That didn't work out either. Does that mean that both of them are dishonorable?
There is alot we don't know here and so there is alot we can't speak for. We don't know how long this father has been going to a different church. We don't know if there have or have not been discussions or arguements regarding this before. We still don't know what is confusing to the child. As for that, as far as I am concerned, the child is only going to be as confused as the parents let her be. BOTH of them. We have no clue what the father has said about this new church.
And as for the court order, the father is only in violation if he encourages the child to become a member of his church and not recieve the sacraments of the Catholic church. According to the OP, the child is to be raised Catholic. Perhaps the father has already talked to the child regarding the new church and told her that while he is not asking her to change, this is the church they attend and she will when on visits with them, but that it is important to her mother that she be rasied Catholic and she will recieve all of those sacraments. We have no clue if that happened and possibly neither does the mother.
By attending a different church, he did nothing wrong. He did not have to get her permission to do so, but it probably would have been a good idea to let her know where he was heading. But who knows, maybe they did talk briefly about it and it turned into an arguement so he stopped talking. I won't talk to my ex about things if it turns into an arguement. Why bother? I answer to God not him.
As long as the father is open with this child and the child understands that she is going to follow through with her confirmation or whatever comes next for her, then he has done nothing wrong. Again, I see alot of bitterness here and I am having a hard time believing that a child who is that age, is so very concerned and confused that they went to a different church all by her own thoughts. Plus, if she has brought this up to the mother, she probably has asked her father questions too. I think we don't know enough to say much more than what we already have said.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/26/2008 9:11:13 AM
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buckifn
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carrie are you still here? Did you make a decision on how to resolve this yet?
I pray both of you as parent's put the child's needs above your own and handle this in a way that shows love and gentleness towards one another not wrath and bitterness.
This could be a wonderful door to teach your child the value of good communication, love, and how to handle conflict appropriately. If handled wrong however think of the negatives it is modeling to your daughter.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/26/2008 9:35:11 AM
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IonMoon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
This wasn't something he "just said". He made a legal agreement in court to this effect, and he broke that agreement without so much as a word to his wife.
Yes... but whether he broke the agreement depends entirely on how one defines "raised Catholic."
It would seem to me that a child can be "raised Catholic" and still attend another church once in awhile (even regularly).
I think that if it went to court, it would have to be proven that taking her to a non-Catholic church prevents her from being Catholic and I don't think that can be proven.
Now, if the agreement spelled out that the child would be taken to a Cahtolic church every Sunday, that would be different. In that case, the dad would clearly be breaking the agreement. Or if the churhc she is attending required her to renounce Cahtolic teachings. Which I suppose is possible, but highly unlikely. A case might also be made that attending that church goes against the agreement if the church speaks out publicly against the Catholic faith, which is also remotely possible- I have heard churches do this- but we don't know that to be the case here.
In this case, it does not soumd like the dad is technically breaking their agreement.
So, the best thing to do for now, I think, is help the kid adjust and find out more about the church (through conversations with dh (if this can be done amicably), reading literature/website, visiting the church.
I hope it works out well for all of you!
Tara P
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/27/2008 10:36:17 PM
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Carrieberry
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WOW! I haven’t been on the computer for a while so I had no idea all this conversation was going on with my post. THANK YOU ALL for your comments and concern. I really do appreciate it. It took me quite a while to read through all of it. And, I’m sorry I won’t touch on every single reply, but I would like to at least respond to some points that jumped out to me.
First of all, I think, as we all can see, there is no perfect solution to this issue. As you can well imagine, I have thought, prayed and asked for advice on this issue A LOT and so far I think my earlier response is what I will go with. That being… [to take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church to show and teach her so as to re enforce our Catholic faith.]
As one of you mentioned [Our kids are going to be exposed to all kinds of different religious practices. We need to help them to understand what [i]they believe and why…] It is my sincere hope that we all take this opportunity now to do just that. I can honestly say that I get the feeling that this may be part of God’s plan…taking our bad situation and using it for good. To use this “issue” to stir all of us to re-examine and re-enforce our own beliefs and convictions to make them stronger… after all, if we don‘t know why we believe something, how can we expect to commit to it? This includes her dad and his family. I don’t intend to take dad back to court, (even though it is specifically put in the divorce decree and violates a Judge's order to raise the child Catholic.. etc)
Maybe this will help him realize why he is/was Catholic and really and truly think about his reasons for going to a different church or even going to church at all. He doesn’t even know!! I think that’s the reason he is easily swayed to go to whatever church his new wife goes to. No real understanding and therefore no commitment to the Catholic faith. If it happened to him, what makes anyone think it won’t happen to our impressionable child?
And as for the rest of the quote [and that being around people who have different beliefs is okay.]… Well, it is okay to be around them but in moderation. (FYI she spends almost the entire summer with dad) As she is still a very young child in her formidable/impressionable/learning years, it’s not a good idea for her to be so frequently fellowshipping with those who are or could be undermining her faith’s doctrinal foundation.
As her mother it is my responsibility to teach her “in the way she should go” and when she is an adult, then and only then, she will be able to choose whether this is her own faith and beliefs and not ours. This situation has re enforced in me, now more than ever, to teach her that it’s good to be a bit skeptical and to question and examine everything we are taught: what we hear, see and read. We don’t just accept things blindly!
That way we know why we believe what we believe and can confidently commit to it including morals and values etc. For example, this will tie into why we won’t go along with something even if “it’s not that bad”, “other people are doing it”, or “it makes me feel good/happy” etc….(can you see where that’s going - teens/young adults) We want to live our lives in truth. God’s truth.
To answer some of your other questions:
- Divorced for six years and dad had been taking our child to Catholic church. I had no idea, until she came to me, that they were even going to a different church! Imagine my surprise…
- His new family (of about three years) goes to the non denomination church and I think sometimes a Baptist church, but never to a Catholic church. I think that since he is not strong in his own convictions/faith that this is where he is lead to a different church, thus taking our child with him, disregarding any implications.
- Since getting into specifics would only serve to get us off topic, suffice it to say she has specifically come to me concerned about things said at that church that are completely wrong about Catholics and/or completely contrary to how the Catholics understand certain things about the bible. On top of all that, not taking communion according to her faith…So, yes, even just going while on visits with dad is very upsetting!
- I do agree with someone’s reply that our child, who loves the Lord and her Catholic faith, is being compelled/convicted by the Holy Spirit about the wrong things she is hearing, and so she comes to me with her concerns. And rightfully so.
As I mentioned before, I think that since her dad is very weak in his convictions/faith, at this point, I’m the only parent concerned (or even acknowledge there is a concern). As we go through this, I pray that her dad and his family (and anyone else reading) will find it important enough to re-examine and sincerely seek out the truth for themselves about their beliefs from the correct sources. To know, for sure, the reasons for going to a particular church or even going to church at all.
Again, thank you all and God bless.
By the way, if anyone is interested in the truth about Catholics, I would recommend these sites for starters.
http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/index.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.htm
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/27/2008 11:16:51 PM
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1mlasp
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Several things here bother me as I am seeing a serious lack of respect for the father in reading these posts:
1. "Child going to wrong church with father's new family" sounds judgemental.
2. You keep referring to when your child is with her father as "visiting" rather than it being a second home for her. Is your daughter "visiting" when she is with you?
3. You said that your job is to train your child up in the way she should go. Are you acknowledging that your ex-husband may feel that this is his job as well? Have you considered that he feels he may be fulfilling this by taking her to this particular church?
4. You say that dad is very weak in his convictions/faith. How do you know this? He could have changed a lot in the six years since your divorce, or even in the three years since he remarried.
This whole thing seems more about control than concern for the child's spiritual upbringing.
Sorry for how blunt this sounds, but this is my take on the situation...I realize that I may have come to conclusions that are way off, in which case I apologize in advance and hope the OP will correct me.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/27/2008 11:16:59 PM
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Sideways
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I'm proud of you, Carrie. You taking the higher ground in all of this. Her father was a coward for not telling you upfront about the change in churches. But you are taking this difficult situation and with the grace of God, turning it into a teaching tool for your child, a chance to grow even stronger.
I strongly suspected that your daughter would be hearing lies about the Catholic Church in her father's church, and Biblical interpretations that do not conform to Catholic interpretations, just as you said in your post. By studying the Bible and the Catechism with your daughter you will do a great deal to strengthen her faith, for sometimes it is only by outside attack that we become stronger.
And although this non-denom church may certainly be Christian, it is an attack to what you believe to be true as a Catholic, for certainly many different Christians will interpret the Bible in many different ways. So, I can certainly understand your concern. I'm Protestant myself, and there are a number of other Protestant denominations that would worry me greatly if my son were spending extensive amounts of time in their churches.
God be with you, as you and your daughter seek a deeper understanding and ownership of your faith.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/27/2008 11:19:42 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1mlasp
This whole thing seems more about control than concern for the child's spiritual upbringing.
It's both. It's about control of the child's spiritual upbringing. The mother feels very strongly about the Catholic interpretation of the Christian faith, and therefore is equally passionate to pass on her knowledge and passion to her child.
As a parent, I understand where she is coming from.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:05:06 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carrieberry
Has anyone had experience with your child going to a different denominational church (while on visits with the other parent) than the one they are born and currently being raised in?
To be specific, father, mother and child are of one faith and have agreed to raise child in that particular faith. But when father re-married decides to switch and take child to differnt denominational church. Child is not too happy and is confused but doesn't want to disappoint father who denies there is anything wrong....
Any insight or suggestions???
Like others have suggested, find out about his church. Also, find out why you feel it's the "wrong church."
quote:
Okay. We are Catholic and dad is starting to go to a non denominational church - what is that? no particular denomination or just whatever you want it to be denomination? I guess that's why I'm saying different faith/denomination and wrong church. He can't even tell me what it is, he just thinks it's nicer there...
Child is ten and is telling me about wanting to go to a Catholic church but dad doesn't want to go any more. If dad decides he wants a change for himself that's his right but the fact remains that 1. It has always been agreed that child is to be raised Catholic and 2. Child is not happy about this.
1- Agreements can be changed as situations change.
2- Children are not happy about many things. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do them anyway.
quote:
Thank you, Sidways. Every word you said is exactly right. You said it well.
To clear things up 1. It is specifically in our divorce decree that our child is to be brought up Catholic and also 2. We have always agreed to this during any parenting planning etc. he just changed his mind without consideration to how it affects anybody.
Let's remember here that it's about how it's affecting our child, not dad. He is the adult and should be making every effort to make this easier for our child, not himself. This confusion and conflict is upsetting our child very much and that's why I'm seeking advice.
It would not be difficult for him at all to take her to a Catholic church when she visits with him and he can go to what ever other church any other day. It's only a small sacrifice on his part to at least keep this one part of her life stable when everything else has changed...
Our child says she is hearing things at this different church that are confusing her and, most importantly she misses recieving Holy Communion. It breaks my heart... If anyone here is Catholic, then you know how important this is.
I guess I will take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church and show her to re enforce our Catholic faith.
1- the decree can be changed.
2- Find out why he no longer wants to be a part of the Catholic faith.
3- Dig in your Bible - leave the Catechism of the Catholic church out of it.
4- It was wrong of him to just decide to do this without consulting with you. However, he did it. It sounds to me like there weren't very open communication lines between the two of you. Of course, if you're calling my church the "wrong church" I'd be very hesistant to discuss things with you too.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 11:26:09 AM
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Sideways
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There might be a misunderstanding here about the Catechism. It's never considered the equal to the Bible; it's more like a study guide. It's an explanation of Catholic doctrine, using Bible verses for support. At least, that's what the Lutheran Catechism is, and I assume the Catholic one is the same. My husband says he appreciates getting the insight of many Biblical scholars who've spent their entire lives studying the Bible, and using that to better dig into the Bible and understand why he believes what he believes.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own Bible study and our own beliefs, but I've met very few Christians who've never used a study guide in their lives to learn more about the Bible and their own faith. So telling a mom who is interested in passing on her Catholic faith to her daughter to "leave the Catechism out of it" is rather hypocritical.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 12:23:23 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
There might be a misunderstanding here about the Catechism. It's never considered the equal to the Bible; it's more like a study guide. It's an explanation of Catholic doctrine, using Bible verses for support. At least, that's what the Lutheran Catechism is, and I assume the Catholic one is the same.
It isn't, but this isn't the place to get into that. Suffice it to say that the Catechims contains not just Scriptural truths but also Catholic "sacred" traditional beliefs that have been passed down through the ages, which are not directly supported by Scripture. You can pm me if you want to know more.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 12:30:03 PM
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stellaluna
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You could also review the Catholic threads down in the Theology folder.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:04:01 PM
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Carrieberry
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It looks like some people are getting off subject here. I know these posts can get very long and sometimes hard to keep track of who said what, where and when so maybe it will help to summarize again at this point to keep us on the real issues. Most of the points I have already answered but will repeat here since some people did not catch it the first time and are asking again.
1. Dad is very weak in his convictions/faith and does not really know his reasons for going to a different church or even going to church at all... Some replies have asked if I knew that for sure and, yes, I do know this for a fact because I asked him. I’ll say again, No real understanding and therefore no commitment to the Catholic faith. or any for that matter.
2. Let me ask this, what happens if (hypothetically) he were to remarry a few more times and each time he wants to switch to a different denomination? (After all, he has no real convictions or faith to commit to just one) Does he take our child too? Switching and upsetting her for no real reason? This definitely is not him “training her in the way she should go”…he doesn’t even know which way he himself should go.
3. For those who keep asking about why I feel it’s the wrong church, I have answered that in my previous post………[she has specifically come to me concerned about things said at that church that are completely wrong about Catholics and/or completely contrary to how the Catholics understand certain things about the Bible. On top of all that, not taking communion according to her faith…So, yes, even just going while on visits with dad is very upsetting!]
4. Again, my resolve is to take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church (yes, practicing Catholics use both) to show and teach her so as to re enforce our Catholic faith. As (Sideways) mentioned, I feels very strongly about the Catholic interpretation of the Christian faith, and therefore equally passionate to pass on my knowledge and passion to our child. The same can not be said about dad who “goes wherever the wind blows.”
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:10:02 PM
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Carrieberry
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Thank you! Again, you are extremely insightful! I was rather shocked when I was told in that reply not to use the Catholic Catechism. Hypocritical indeed.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:12:30 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
2. Let me ask this, what happens if (hypothetically) he were to remarry a few more times and each time he wants to switch to a different denomination? (After all, he has no real convictions or faith to commit to just one) Does he take our child too? Switching and upsetting her for no real reason? This definitely is not him “training her in the way she should go”…he doesn’t even know which way he himself should go.
How are you so sure of this? Just because he left the catholic church? You've been divorced for 6 years, I really doubt that you know him intimately enough anymore to know what his convictions are and whether or not he is strong in his faith.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:21:47 PM
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Sideways
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If she point blank asked him why he feels led to attend this new church, and he could not answer, then that doesn't show a lot of conviction on his part.
I can understand why she is critical of his decision to move, if she did talk to him and he can't explain why he feels led to go church at all, much less this church.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:24:26 PM
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Carrieberry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
2. Let me ask this, what happens if (hypothetically) he were to remarry a few more times and each time he wants to switch to a different denomination? (After all, he has no real convictions or faith to commit to just one) Does he take our child too? Switching and upsetting her for no real reason? This definitely is not him “training her in the way she should go”…he doesn’t even know which way he himself should go.
How are you so sure of this? Just because he left the catholic church? You've been divorced for 6 years, I really doubt that you know him intimately enough anymore to know what his convictions are and whether or not he is strong in his faith.
Please re read my reply above as I have already aswered this.......
{1. Dad is very weak in his convictions/faith and does not really know his reasons for going to a different church or even going to church at all... Some replies have asked if I knew that for sure and, yes, I do know this for a fact because I asked him. I’ll say again, No real understanding and therefore no commitment to the Catholic faith. or any for that matter.}
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:29:23 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
If she point blank asked him why he feels led to attend this new church, and he could not answer, then that doesn't show a lot of conviction on his part.
We've been attending a church here for 11 years. If you asked any of us why we attend this church, we'd likely say "because it felt right". That could be taken by someone as lack of conviction, when in fact it isn't. To us, our faith is different from where we go to church. It could exist independently of whichever church we attend. Our faith is of prime importance, the church we attend is of secondary importance. IIRC Catholics equate and define their faith by their attending church (their mother), whereas Protestants do not.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 1:35:59 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carrieberry
Thank you! Again, you are extremely insightful! I was rather shocked when I was told in that reply not to use the Catholic Catechism. Hypocritical indeed.
Carrie
It isn't. The Catechism contains a number of things which are not directly supported by Scripture but by Catholic tradition (eg that Mary was born sinless and also did not die). Everything in Protestant "study guides" directly relates to Scripture.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 2:06:36 PM
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Kath
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 2:23:12 PM
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1mlasp
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I fully believe that it's possible to love Christ with all your heart while being a member of the catholic church. It's also possible to be a member of a protestant denomination and not even be a believer. The relationship with Christ should come before any other identification or association with any specific denomination. Is being Catholic more important than being Christian?
The original poster has stated many times that the father has no real convictions. As a relatively new believer, he may not be able to articulate why he believes what he does adequately enough to satisfy the OP. Moreover, if she calls his "the wrong church" or considers her daughter's time with dad as "just visiting" (which seems to be common with divorced women), then I can understand his not even wanting to justify himself to someone who has already condemned him and doesn't even seem to be acknowledging his role as a parent. However, the tone of her posts and her tone in real life dealings with the dad may be totally different, so this may or may not be what is going on. I would highly recommend that she go into some co-parenting classes with dad so that she can express these concerns and hear him out with a moderator present.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 2:25:15 PM
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Sideways
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Oh, you mean like some sort of family counseling? Well, that may a good idea, especially if the situation gets more difficult. The girl may even want a neutral 3rd party to talk to.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 2:30:31 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carrieberry
- His new family (of about three years) goes to the non denomination church and I think sometimes a Baptist church, but never to a Catholic church. I think that since he is not strong in his own convictions/faith that this is where he is lead to a different church, thus taking our child with him, disregarding any implications.
Do you think that this could be causing some of the problems? Normally, I find the differences between Protestant and Catholic churches to be pretty minor and wouldn't see where someone would find this to be an issue, but baptists (from my experiences) tend to not be very friendly towards Catholics (at least in their teachings; also, I'm speaking IN GENERAL, here; not baptists in their entirety). Could there have been something said here that would make the kid feel as though they were going to the wrong church?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 2:38:01 PM
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1mlasp
Posts: 210
Joined: 12/9/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Oh, you mean like some sort of family counseling? Well, that may a good idea, especially if the situation gets more difficult. The girl may even want a neutral 3rd party to talk to. Sort of like that, but in this case I think the girl should be introduced to this later. The OP may feel that she answered my questions, but I can't tell from this thread if the mom is being impossible or if the dad is being passive-aggressive. Yes, I think a neutral 3rd party may be in order to help the parents with this (and possibly other) issues.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/28/2008 4:27:55 PM
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Carrieberry
Posts: 9
Joined: 7/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
If she point blank asked him why he feels led to attend this new church, and he could not answer, then that doesn't show a lot of conviction on his part.
We've been attending a church here for 11 years. If you asked any of us why we attend this church, we'd likely say "because it fe | | |
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