RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 9:23:14 AM
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SteveSund
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mommyplus3
thank you!! very interesting...is it a legal thing? in all states? my dh and his ex-wife do not have one, just lots of open ommunication  and a really great stepmom that helps keep the peace LOL
This is the exception, rather than the rule. If parents are generally agreeable, then there aren't usually many problems. Whatever the agreement, the court doesn't typically closely monitor the post-divorce environment unless one of the parties brings something to their attention.
If there is joint legal custody, then both parents are supposed to come to some kind of agreement as to major decisions, such as religious upbringing, medical decisions, education, etc. If one parent has sole legal custody, then they do not need to consult the other parent. In my experience, religion tends to be one of those issues that parents fight over.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 9:32:48 AM
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MrsTracy72
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
So, if the child started out Protestant, but the dad felt better fed at a Catholic Mass, then everyone would be fine with that, too? That's cool.
The OP never said that it was in the agreement. In my case it wasn't and I did keep my ex informed of all changes I made until this last time, I was less detailed. But I explained why in my earlier post. IF it is in the agreement that the child attend a Catholic church only, then they need to either talk that one out and come to a new agreement, or fight it out in court.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I agree that the more the mom learns about the non-denom church, the better she can discuss any issues or problems with the father, and address any questions that may come up from the child. More understanding and better communications between the two parents and child can only be a good thing.
Yes, I do think that just for her own peace of mind, it would be a great idea. It might also bridge that gap that seems to be there with her and her ex.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 9:37:17 AM
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lexie
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It's funny, the term "wrong church" in the thread is bugging me here.
I think the OP needs to do some digging into this new church and see what it is completely about. And open up their Bible as they do so. If you can prove with your Bible that what they are teaching is wrong, then yes, it is the wrong church. If you can't, then allow your child to continue attending this church with their father as long as it continues to provide him with scripturally sound teaching. Then let your son decide, again using the Bible, which is the "right" church for him.
If my husband decided to start attending a Catholic church with our children, yes I would be upset, given past conversations. However, it is his decision. And for me, it would be the perfect opportunity to teach my children about searching the Scriptures for themselves.
quote:
I see your point, but this child has two parents. Would you take your daughter to a different church over the objections of your husband?
I would. My husband would do the same. But there probably wouldn't be any objections between the two of us. Our agreement has been that our children should be raised in a church that is Biblically-sound, not the specific denomination.
Also, I'm curious to know why the child is so upset. There are many reasons he could be that actually have nothing to do with the church itself.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 11:32:55 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
Also, I'm curious to know why the child is so upset. There are many reasons he could be that actually have nothing to do with the church itself.
Oh certainly. He may still be upset over his parents' split, he may not like members of his dad's family, all sorts of things.
Or, it may simply be the style of worship that bothers him, and nothing doctrinally wrong with the church. My brother once visited a church with my cousin where people worshiped very... energetically is the best way to put it. Lots of hand-raising, clapping, dancing in the aisles. Then at the end everyone was approaching the alter being touched by the preacher and just falling over like they passed out.
Brother was FREAKED OUT. There's nothing wrong specifically with what I described, but if you're accustomed to a more quieter form of worship (which is also perfectly fine), then I can see why a 10 year old would be a little unnerved.
It's possible the child has already been pressured to be baptized a second time in a "believers baptism", when he's led his whole life thinking the first one was good enough.
We really don't know until the mom sits the kid down and has a long talk about it.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 11:43:44 AM
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Carrieberry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I agree that you should investigate this church further, to see if you have any major problems. But at 10, I think the child should have at least a voice. Can you hold a family meeting and calmly discuss everyone's view and thoughts?
Any Protestant church will have doctrinal differences with the Catholic church, and it does seem wrong to me that this man agreed to raise his children Catholic and is now going back on his word, a move which is distressing to the child.
This child may be hearing the Catholic church bashed on a regular basis at this father's church, which has the potential to set up a great deal of conflict and pain within the child. Do your best to find out why the child is upset exactly. There may be things he's hearing at this church that are very confusing/upsetting to him.
Thank you, Sidways. Every word you said is exactly right. You said it well.
To clear things up 1. It is specifically in our divorce decree that our child is to be brought up Catholic and also 2. We have always agreed to this during any parenting planning etc. he just changed his mind without consideration to how it affects anybody.
Let's remember here that it's about how it's affecting our child, not dad. He is the adult and should be making every effort to make this easier for our child, not himself. This confusion and conflict is upsetting our child very much and that's why I'm seeking advice.
It would not be difficult for him at all to take her to a Catholic church when she visits with him and he can go to what ever other church any other day. It's only a small sacrifice on his part to at least keep this one part of her life stable when everything else has changed...
Our child says she is hearing things at this different church that are confusing her and, most importantly she misses recieving Holy Communion. It breaks my heart... If anyone here is Catholic, then you know how important this is.
I guess I will take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church and show her to re enforce our Catholic faith.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 11:53:39 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carrieberry
To clear things up 1. It is specifically in our divorce decree that our child is to be brought up Catholic and also 2. We have always agreed to this during any parenting planning etc. he just changed his mind without consideration to how it affects anybody.
I guess I will take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church and show her to re enforce our Catholic faith.
If all attempts to settle this peacefully have failed (and please do try), then take him to court. He's broken a legal agreement between the two of you without consulting you. That is not Christian behavior, and what he has done is illegal.
Continue a dialog with your child about what specifically is confusing to her, and continue reading the Bible and the Catechism together. That can only help.
As far as communion, can you take her to a Wednesday Mass where she can partake? My grandmother is frail, and actually has communion brought to her in her home. It's not quite the same, but it is something.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:27:09 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carrieberry
Our child says she is hearing things at this different church that are confusing her and, most importantly she misses recieving Holy Communion. It breaks my heart... If anyone here is Catholic, then you know how important this is.
Have you asked your husband why she cannot receive Communion at his church? At our non-denom church, all who love the Lord Jesus Christ can take Communion, including children.
What things is she hearing that are confusing her?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:32:23 PM
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Sideways
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Catholics have very strong beliefs about the nature of communion. It's not just a memorial to them. It would very wrong for a believing Catholic to take communion not blessed by a priest or at least a believing Catholic. It's sort of like eating meat or drinking alcohol, for some Christians, their beliefs make that a sin, so for them, it is a sin.
Many Protestants will not take communion at a Catholic Church, and for very good reason. I certainly would not, because I don't share their beliefs about the nature of communion.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:37:11 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Catholics have very strong beliefs about the nature of communion. It's not just a memorial to them. It would very wrong for a believing Catholic to take communion not blessed by a priest or at least a believing Catholic. It's sort of like eating meat or drinking alcohol, for some Christians, their beliefs make that a sin, so for them, it is a sin.
I know Catholics who happily take Communion at Protestant churches. I have a Catholic friend married to a Protestant; they go alternate weeks to each other's churches. When she (the Protestant) goes to the Catholic church, she is not allowed to take Communion. When he (the Catholic) goes to the Protestant church, he takes communion alongside his wife.
quote:
Many Protestants will not take communion at a Catholic Church, and for very good reason. I certainly would not, because I don't share their beliefs about the nature of communion.
Protestants are NOT ALLOWED to take communion at a Catholic church so that is a moot point.
Anyway, back to topic?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:45:02 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I know Catholics who happily take Communion at Protestant churches. I have a Catholic friend married to a Protestant; they go alternate weeks to each other's churches. When she (the Protestant) goes to the Catholic church, she is not allowed to take Communion. When he (the Catholic) goes to the Protestant church, he takes communion alongside his wife.
Because it relates directly to the child's concern over attending a Protestant church, I will only say that many Catholics do not feel like your friends do. For them, in their hearts, it is a SIN to take communion outside of the Catholic church. We may not agree, but this child very torn up about this issue, and I think her feelings deserve legitimate consideration.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:47:09 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Because it relates directly to the child's concern over attending a Protestant church, I will only say that many Catholics do not feel like your friends do. For them, in their hearts, it is a SIN to take communion outside of the Catholic church. We may not agree, but this child very torn up about this issue, and I think her feelings deserve legitimate consideration.
Well then maybe the child herself should be asked how she'd feel about taking Communion at dad's church, rather than being told how she is to feel. If it's a matter of personal conviction, then let her be personally convicted about it and choose for herself.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:52:41 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Let's remember here that it's about how it's affecting our child, not dad. He is the adult and should be making every effort to make this easier for our child, not himself. This confusion and conflict is upsetting our child very much and that's why I'm seeking advice.
It is about how it effects him though... If he does not agree with the teaching of the Catholic church, then I doubt he really wants to go there. The happy medium would probably be to just not go to church when she is with him. Or to go back to court and duke it out there.
Btw, how often is she with him?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:53:02 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Communion is very rarely given every week at a non-Catholic church, anyway. So your point about her taking it there would be moot.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:54:42 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Well then maybe the child herself should be asked how she'd feel about taking Communion at dad's church, rather than being told how she is to feel. If it's a matter of personal conviction, then let her be personally convicted about it and choose for herself.
Your friends are the only Catholics I've ever heard of who would take communion outside of the Catholic Church. What's the difference between being instructed in the faith of her church, and being "told how to feel"?
Parents teach their children all the time what they feel is right. They don't just tell the kid to go with their own convictions.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 12:58:33 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Communion is very rarely given every week at a non-Catholic church, anyway. So your point about her taking it there would be moot.
Excellent point. I'm sure the child could still find a mid-week Mass to receive communion if it's really that important to her. I know it means the world to my grandmother, that's why my grandfather brings it home to her on days she is to frail to attend Mass.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 2:34:59 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Parents teach their children all the time what they feel is right. They don't just tell the kid to go with their own convictions.
IMO a child of 11 should be starting to have her own convictions and be encouraged to go with them. If this young lady already has a walk with Christ, then she will already be recognising His voice and be able, or becoming able, to listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling her.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 2:43:21 PM
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stellaluna
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While it does vary from church to church, I spent my whole lifetime in non-denom churches and it has been rare not to have communion every week. We have it every week at my current church.
Additionally, I have known a number of Catholics who take communion when visiting other churches. No biggie.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 2:56:27 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Parents teach their children all the time what they feel is right. They don't just tell the kid to go with their own convictions.
IMO a child of 11 should be starting to have her own convictions and be encouraged to go with them. If this young lady already has a walk with Christ, then she will already be recognising His voice and be able, or becoming able, to listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling her.
Extending out that logic, if a child of 11 is convicted by the Holy Spirit to attend a different church then his/her father, should that be allowed? How far does this go? Maybe the child is upset at attending this church because the Holy Spirit is convicting her not to go.
ETA: The wording of the OP does not make it sound like the girl really wants to take communion but can't because her mother is holding her back. It sounds as if the girl is upset because she can't take communion according to her faith. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound as if this girl really wants communion at her dad's church and can't because mommy will get mad.
At any rate this whole matter is moot, because the dad has broken his legal agreement with the mother. A Christian cannot break a legal contract just because "God told me to." He should either go back to court, trusting that God will be on his side to rework the agreement, or he should honor the agreement and not take the child to a Protestant church.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 7/24/2008 3:04:15 PM >
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:25:32 PM
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myka
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Catholics are free to take communion at Protestant churches; however, it isn't the same thing--and doesn't hold the same theological significance as the Catholic sacrament of communion.
I agree with Sideways; he has broken the legal agreement and is responsible for that.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:26:34 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I guess you would have to defite 'bringing up' in order to say he had broken the agreement. I was not brought up Christian, but I sometimes went to churches with people, including my grandmother. I was not brought up Catholic, but I attended various services due to family events. Is going where here dad goes every other Sunday really 'bringing up'? And should a parent be required to teach a child something they believe is wrong?
As a divorced mom, I can tell you, there are times when the effects of divorce cannot be overcome. This may be one of those times. The parents are not going to agree, and the child is going to be caught in the middle.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:28:18 PM
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Kath
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quote:
That may well be because it's Catholic tradition on which their teaching on Communion is based, not the Bible. (in case anyone wonders, I am not being offensive here, as Catholicism is founded on a combination of the Bible and Catholic tradition down through the ages)
This is all getting way off topic. Lets get off the subject of communion now.
Thank you.
Sincerely
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:51:01 PM
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MrsTracy72
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
As a divorced mom, I can tell you, there are times when the effects of divorce cannot be overcome. This may be one of those times. The parents are not going to agree, and the child is going to be caught in the middle.
Very true. Nothing is definate, and the one thing that I learned is that no matter how careful and organized you are, you are never EVER going to be able to make a parenting agreement that will take a child through their childhood and into adulthood without needed to tweak it here and there.
This is a huge issue though and it sounds as if you are very grounded in your church. BUT, before you do go taking legal action because there is a very good chance that it will not turn out the way you anticipate, check out the church, the doctrine and find out from your child what they are being taught that is not in agreement with your church. You may simply find that it is the attitudes of you and your ex that the child is picking up on and has nothing to do with the church at all.
Plus, if you do find anything in that church that does not agree with what you are teaching your child, when/if you go to court over this, then you will at least know exactly what you are talking about and have a better chance.
I highly doubt though that if this is a bible teaching church you are going to have a problem. The only difference between that and your church is basically the church history and traditions. The mass is mostly tradition. So all your child is missing out on is that tradition.
And as for your child missing taking communion every week, what would the difference be if your child skipped church every other weekend or went to a church that didn't have communion every week for your child? Nothing really.
Pray about this and search out the truth. Encourage your child to do the same. Let this be a learning experience for your child. If your child is grounded in her faith, then all you need to be concerned about is that she has God in her life even at her dad's house. Because in the end, that is all that matters. God. He knows our hearts.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:51:48 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Is going where here dad goes every other Sunday really 'bringing up'? And should a parent be required to teach a child something they believe is wrong?
I think bringing a child to a different church every other Sunday is "bringing up". And this parent again made a legal agreement to raise his daughter as a Catholic.
If he truely feels convicted in his heart, and wants to be an honorable Christian, then he should've first approached the mother with his convictions, tried to come to an agreement with her, and if all else failed, gone to court to change the agreement.
Failing to act on his convictions honorably has brought emotional turmoil to this family and degraded the father's witness.
He gave his word, and the Bible speaks very strongly about honoring one's word. A Christian's testimony is severely impaired if others cannot trust them to act according to their word. And there's no way you can spin that taking a child to a non-denom Protestant church isn't going against his word to raise the child as a Catholic.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:54:25 PM
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manda59
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But unless he is actively telling his daughter not to be a Catholic, or directly influencing her against Catholicism, he is not acting against the Catholic upbringing her mother is giving her.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:56:15 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
And as for your child missing taking communion every week, what would the difference be if your child skipped church every other weekend or went to a church that didn't have communion every week for your child? Nothing really. That is a very good point, since I doubt this dad will take his child to the Catholic church...probably the two of them will stay home, kept away from the rest of the family and ANY church, on the Sunday mornings that she stays with him. I think that's far more harmful than simply having different communion traditions or something like that.
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