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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 3:47:24 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Maybe, just maybe, it is taking so long is because every i must be dotted and every t crossed so that lawyers can't have the case thrown out on a technicality. I don't know the facts, but I do know how SOME lawyers operate, so I'm only speculating about the time frame.
-Dave
The biggest problem is that the war happened fast. The decision to go without a formal declaration of war caused the US to have to invent something new. The idea was to avoid established international agreements on conducting prisoner management.
Then we got sidetracked with Iraq and stirred up a hornet's nest politically, wasting tons of support and goodwill we had after 9/11. We (the US) did it to ourselves.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/1/2008 3:00:22 PM
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cow451
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Trial Update:
The Prosecution completed its case and the defense is proceeding. The "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks responde to written questions and described Hamdan as a low-level grunt. LINK
Anyone who thought all bin Laden's associates were involved in his plots "is a fool and does not understand al Qaeda," Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said
He described Hamdan, who has a fourth-grade education, as a "more primitive (Bedouin) person" who did not share bin Laden's ideology but wanted his money and was "only searching for pleasure and money in this life."
"He was not fit to plan or execute. But he is fit to change trucks' tires, change oil filters, wash and clean cars and fasten cargo in pick up trucks," said Mohammed, who called himself the military official responsible for overseeing al Qaeda cells abroad and "the executive director of 9/11."
Mohammed said those attacks succeeded precisely because they were kept secret from many members of bin Laden's inner circle, from other al Qaeda members and cells, from trainers at the camps and from what he termed "civilian employees" such as cooks, translators and computer engineers.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/1/2008 3:36:52 PM
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davemiller7
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Remember that we also prosecuted many of Hitler's death camp guards, even though they weren't actively involved with any decision making. The fact that Hamdan wasn't very bright doesn't excuse him either. Maybe Hamdan wasn't one of them but how many other dupes are there who are willing to meet their 72 virgins for blowing themselves up or killing Americans?
Now, if Hamdan was really nothing more than bin Laden's driver, he probably doesn't deserve a death sentence, but neither should he be released because he was just a innocent bystander.
Just my opinion,
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Trial Update:
The Prosecution completed its case and the defense is proceeding. The "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks responde to written questions and described Hamdan as a low-level grunt. LINK
Anyone who thought all bin Laden's associates were involved in his plots "is a fool and does not understand al Qaeda," Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said
He described Hamdan, who has a fourth-grade education, as a "more primitive (Bedouin) person" who did not share bin Laden's ideology but wanted his money and was "only searching for pleasure and money in this life."
"He was not fit to plan or execute. But he is fit to change trucks' tires, change oil filters, wash and clean cars and fasten cargo in pick up trucks," said Mohammed, who called himself the military official responsible for overseeing al Qaeda cells abroad and "the executive director of 9/11."
Mohammed said those attacks succeeded precisely because they were kept secret from many members of bin Laden's inner circle, from other al Qaeda members and cells, from trainers at the camps and from what he termed "civilian employees" such as cooks, translators and computer engineers.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/1/2008 3:42:17 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2169
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quote:
Remember that we also prosecuted many of Hitler's death camp guards, even though they weren't actively involved with any decision making. The fact that Hamdan wasn't very bright doesn't excuse him either. Maybe Hamdan wasn't one of them but how many other dupes are there who are willing to meet their 72 virgins for blowing themselves up or killing Americans?
But we didn't prosecute the cooks, gardeners and toilet bowl cleaners just because they made Hitler's life easier or more pleasant.
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This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/3/2008 9:21:06 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3970
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Remember that we also prosecuted many of Hitler's death camp guards, even though they weren't actively involved with any decision making. The fact that Hamdan wasn't very bright doesn't excuse him either. Maybe Hamdan wasn't one of them but how many other dupes are there who are willing to meet their 72 virgins for blowing themselves up or killing Americans?
Now, if Hamdan was really nothing more than bin Laden's driver, he probably doesn't deserve a death sentence, but neither should he be released because he was just a innocent bystander.
Just my opinion,
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Trial Update:
The Prosecution completed its case and the defense is proceeding. The "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks responde to written questions and described Hamdan as a low-level grunt. LINK
Anyone who thought all bin Laden's associates were involved in his plots "is a fool and does not understand al Qaeda," Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said
He described Hamdan, who has a fourth-grade education, as a "more primitive (Bedouin) person" who did not share bin Laden's ideology but wanted his money and was "only searching for pleasure and money in this life."
"He was not fit to plan or execute. But he is fit to change trucks' tires, change oil filters, wash and clean cars and fasten cargo in pick up trucks," said Mohammed, who called himself the military official responsible for overseeing al Qaeda cells abroad and "the executive director of 9/11."
Mohammed said those attacks succeeded precisely because they were kept secret from many members of bin Laden's inner circle, from other al Qaeda members and cells, from trainers at the camps and from what he termed "civilian employees" such as cooks, translators and computer engineers.
Even if found not guilty, he's still going to stay confined as an enemy combatant. This trial is just a preseason exhibition.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/4/2008 1:49:32 PM
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cow451
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Udate from Yahoo:
Closing arguments: Prosecutor repeated allegations that Hamdan was in the know and played a key role in terorist planning. LINK
His trial would be the first completed in the controversial tribunals created by the Bush administration to prosecute non-U.S. citizens on terrorism charges outside the regular civilian and military courts after the September 11 attacks.
An Australian former captive, al Qaeda foot soldier David Hicks, averted trial at Guantanamo by pleading guilty to providing material support for terrorism and finished his nine-month sentence in his homeland last year.
This just in: Lieberman and Graham introduced a bill to establish guidelines for habeas corpus petitions by enemy combatants at GITMO. LINK
The Enemy Combatant Detention Review Act seeks to provide Congressional input on the habeas corpus process provided to detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba under the Supreme Court’s recent Boumediene decision.
Justice Kennedy suggested in his majority opinion that habeas corpus proceedings need not resemble a traditional criminal proceeding but must provide adequate process for detainees to challenge their detention.
The Enemy Combatant Detention Review Act is designed to comply with and complement the edicts of the Court. The legislation provides guidance on the procedures to follow by creating one clear set of rules which apply to all habeas petitions filed by detainees at Guantanamo Bay.
< Message edited by cow451 -- 8/4/2008 2:10:43 PM >
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/4/2008 2:41:47 PM
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Jhud
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You want to know the saddest part of this whole ordeal? Bin Laden is still sitting on that roadside between Afganistan and Pakistan waiting for his driver to pick him up.
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It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/4/2008 3:14:23 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3970
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You want to know the saddest part of this whole ordeal? Bin Laden is still sitting on that roadside between Afganistan and Pakistan waiting for his driver to pick him up.
LOL
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/5/2008 6:27:18 PM
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cow451
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Jury deliberating on Hamdan's fate. Prosecution contends judge gave "wrong" instructions to jury, which might be in Hamdan's favor.
Re: Conspiracy charge:LINK
In order to find him guilty on that charge, the judge instructed jurors, they must find the missiles were intended for use against protected people -- civilians not involved in hostilities, soldiers removed from combat by illness or capture, or religious or medical personnel.
The prosecution presented no evidence any such people were targeted. They argued the missiles were intended for use against U.S. forces, who had the only planes in the area.
The prosecution wanted the judge to revise the instructions and tell jurors that any attempt by an "unlawful enemy combatant" to kill a U.S. soldier in combat is a war crime.
The defense said that was not the law of war in effect when the alleged acts occurred, and Congress could not retroactively change it in the 2006 law underpinning the Guantanamo trials.
If that had been the law, defense attorney Joe McMillan argued, then the United States committed a war crime by providing missiles to mujahideen forces who used them against the Soviet military in Afghanistan in the 1990s.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/6/2008 10:45:13 AM
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freakofnature
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GUILTY
On charge of supporting terrorism,
Cleared on Conspiracy!
MSNBC Story here
from MSNBC.MSN.COM
The jury deliberated for about eight hours over three days before convicting Hamdan of supporting terrorism. He was cleared of the conspiracy charge.
Hamdan held his head in his hands and wept at the defense table after a Navy captain presiding over the jury read the sentence in a hilltop courtroom on this U.S. Navy base.
He now faces up to a life sentence after the 10-day trial, which provided the first demonstration of a special tribunal system for prosecuting alleged terrorists.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/6/2008 11:48:46 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
GUILTY
On charge of supporting terrorism,
Cleared on Conspiracy!
MSNBC Story here
from MSNBC.MSN.COM
The jury deliberated for about eight hours over three days before convicting Hamdan of supporting terrorism. He was cleared of the conspiracy charge.
Hamdan held his head in his hands and wept at the defense table after a Navy captain presiding over the jury read the sentence in a hilltop courtroom on this U.S. Navy base.
He now faces up to a life sentence after the 10-day trial, which provided the first demonstration of a special tribunal system for prosecuting alleged terrorists.
I feel safer already.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/6/2008 3:45:38 PM
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Leon_Figg3
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This case seems to prove that the military tribunal system is the best place to try individuals captured in war zones, define just what place terrrorism plays in war, and whch terrorists are involved in crimes, and which terrorists are involved, or support acts of terrorism in the conduct of war.
The civilian criminal courts are not the place to try non-uniformed, multi-national terrorist/ individuals and organzations engaged in war, with this country, or any other country.
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To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/6/2008 4:07:45 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3970
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
This case seems to prove that the military tribunal system is the best place to try individuals captured in war zones, define just what place terrrorism plays in war, and whch terrorists are involved in crimes, and which terrorists are involved, or support acts of terrorism in the conduct of war.
The civilian criminal courts are not the place to try non-uniformed, multi-national terrorist/ individuals and organzations engaged in war, with this country, or any other country.
I remain unconvinced until I see a trial of somebody that actually matters.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/7/2008 9:47:48 AM
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mrsrevbob
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Well, has whoever interrogated this individual come any closer to determining the exact status and location of Osama Bin Laden, or should someone suggest that DUBya call Nancy Drew to come and sort out this whole mess.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/7/2008 6:31:45 PM
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OneJohn410
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Let's sing along with the poor driver...
'I'm just a cabbie- yo, and everywhere I go, This guy named Bin Laden comes after.
Scheming up new plans on makin' life more grand and creatin' more American disasters.
There'll come a day, when I will pass away, What'll they say about me?
When the end comes I know, I'm just a cabbie-yo... Osama goes on without me...
'Cause I...... ain't nothin', nobod-dee... Nobody, nobody consult me,
Nobody includes me
I'm so sad and lone-ly, can't drive nobody, nobody, won't you take a ride with me so you can see, I live for sand... under my wheels!
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The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/8/2008 12:59:34 AM
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Leon_Figg3
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I must be dense or something, but I fail to see what everyone's fascination with Bin Laden is all about. Why is it so important that we fixate on him so much and hunt him down?
Back in WWII did anyone in the US seriously insist that America devote its resources to hunting him down?
I doubt it. Oh yes, there may have been some who would have liked to, but I tend to believe that saner minds acknowledged that what was more import was addressing the movement he helped set in motion, rather than the man. We need to be as intelligent and acknowledge that though we would like to bring him to "justice" IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Bin Laden, like Hitler in WWII, out-lived his significance. We need to focus more on his network of terrorists and soldiers, than on spending millins of dollars, and lives on hunting him down.
Even if we did happen to catch him alive, is there anyone who seriously believe he will be tried as he deserves to be?
Look at the fuss the ACLU and others have made about this man's quiklty verdict. If the information I received on the news is right the man was sentenced to a little over five years in prison in which he has already served five years. This means he will be out in a handful of months yet the ACLU is screaming bloody murder (my words) about the injustice of it all.
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To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/8/2008 1:05:08 AM
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lightshineon
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Well, I guess there can be no more griping about being held without due process.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 8/8/2008 11:26:35 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
Look at the fuss the ACLU and others have made about this man's quiklty verdict. If the information I received on the news is right the man was sentenced to a little over five years in prison in which he has already served five years. This means he will be out in a handful of months yet the ACLU is screaming bloody murder (my words) about the injustice of it all.
Hamdan is still classified as an illegal enemy combatant and will not be released at the end of his sentence. He will be eligible to present his case before an administrative review board. LINK
Interesting exchange between Hamdan and the obviously ultra-liberal judge:
After the sentence was announced, the judge wished Hamdan luck in the future.
"I hope the day comes when you return to your wife and your daughters and your country to be a father and a provider and a husband in the best sense of all those terms," the judge told Hamdan after the sentence was read.
"Inshallah (God willing)," said Hamdan.
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