RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (Full Version)

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mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/8/2008 7:21:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydette

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead

quote:

To cease thinking does not automatically mean to empty one's mind. It is to not allow the distractions of life to get into your prayers and sidetrack you from praying. (I wonder if that is why Paul said "pray at all times" because of our human tendency to allow distractions to capture us.)

floydette,
I think I agree, as your explanation seems to reveal that in some cases the issue is nothing more than semantics. However, the proponants of contemporary forms of CP overtly and unapolagetically claim the intent is to gain a state of emptiness. Even a casual reading of Scripture reveals that Biblical meditation involves the active mind.

Perhaps it would be helpful to understand what the author means by "emptying one's mind". My guess is the proponents of TM and those of CP would have different definitions.

floydette,
I didn't see your previous post asking about the comparisons between TM and CP. To answer your question: yes, contemporary forms of CP are virtually identical to TM (btw, I must have made an error if one of my links took you to the official TM website). A year ago (?) the TM site actually contained instructions about how to do TM; now they require that inquirers purchase their material. I think I saved it somewhere, but I'll have to look for it.

The context of CP is different than TM, but the methods are virtually identical. The point of linking the Vanderbuilt site was to provide an reputable description of what I found on the TM site, and to demonstrate that TM can be practiced in a psuedo-religious manner (using religious words or symbols for the mantra). Though the context might be different (religious vs. secular - though TM began as a religous practice before it was redefined so it could be taught and practiced in public schools), and CP tweaks the end goal (hearing from God rather than a non-defined source of enlightenment) the similarities are striking.
1-emptying one's mind through focusing on a word or symbol
2-practicing it twice a day
3-sitting positions
4-suggestions for staying focused on the mantra
5-two minute period after end of session, but before returning to daily activities
6-achieving a state of utter peacfulness

CP is formula. If you do this, then that will happen. Nowhere does God say that if we follow the steps of this formula we can expect peace or enlightenment. To the contrary, He tells us to be filled with the Spirit and these things will flow from the Spirit's presence in our lives.

As for non-web based sources, I cited one in post #104. I will have to go dig through my books so I can give you accurate info. I will try to post that for you tomorrow.



floydette -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/9/2008 7:02:30 AM)

Mush,
Thanks for your post. The reason I linked CP and TM is because you used the TM website in post 104 as a proof-text against CP, thus appearing to compare the two. I am afraid that we will be coming to a point of agreeing to disagree. The words that you use are those that would divide (mantra, emptying one's mind, utter peacefulness) many people. People may well have a desire to deepen their relationship with God, yet read words such as these, and thus run away because of fear.

CP is a practice of prayer Spiritual practices are just that - practices. You practice soccer to become a better soccer player. You practice healthy relationships in your family tohave better relationships. We practice spiritual things to have a "better" relationship with God. Based on our history, and our personalities, often we stear toward one method, while leaving another along. I have never heard anyone say there is a guarantee with CP. It is the involvement of two, both God and ourselves, and the drawing near to him in relationship.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (10/25/2008 12:52:23 AM)

I see I have been misrepresented in my long absence. To be clear AGAIN, I love deep thoughtful prayer to and about God. I love to fill my mind or better stated to have God fill my mind. To empty your mind leads to experience only. Modern Contemplative Prayer is evil stuff that is misleading many a damned person straight into hell. To contemplate God or His Word is good. My thoughts seem to align wholeheartedly with MUSHHEAD.

To all those who use the modern mantric form of CP or tie phyllactories to your heads I ask you: What can YOU do to get close to God? God comes to us because He is great. Stop chasing the wind!!!!!



PastorPatricia -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (10/26/2008 5:24:50 PM)

The Book of Common Prayer is not a book in the Bible, it is the book used in the Anglican/Episcopal Church and if filled with Scripture and many beautiful prayers. It can be found on the Internet by searching for it by name.



DaveW -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (10/27/2008 3:28:41 PM)

Yes - The Book of Common Prayer is a wonderful document. I own one.

I would also suggest reading thru a Siddur (Jewish Prayer book). The orthodox standard is the Artscroll siddur www.artscroll.org and contains EVERYTHING. Other denominations of Judaism have their own but they are all based on the Orthodox prayer book.

If you want mystical - you can try the one used by the Chabad Lubavichers (Siddur Tehillat Hashem) but I would not recomend it.



Heavendweller -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/1/2008 12:01:35 PM)

This is an interesting thread. It took a while to read through it, but I'm glad I did.

I think that often, Satan will mimic what is godly so as to mislead people. I would suggest that this is the case with contemplative prayer. There is contemplative prayer that is godly and draws one closer to Jesus Christ. Then there are those who claim the label of "contemplative prayer" but are really promoting New Age prayer, which can encompass a whole gamut of unbiblical, unchristian ideas. Ideas such as channeling spirits, praying to any thing that one personally decides is their spirit guide, and worshipping the god of one's choice, whoever that might be.

The enemy quoted Sacred Scripture to Jesus, but no all who quote Sacred Scripture are led by the spirit of Satan, as we know. The enemy has convinced unbelievers that their good works in and of themselves can save them. Yet, true believers in Christ also do good works. So, the good works are not evil but rather, the context in which one places these good works. I'm sure there are other examples that could be given.

So it is that the evil one has hijacked the term "contemplative prayer" to deceive others. There is contemplative prayer which is edifying to the believer in Christ and pleasing to our Heavenly Father. Then there is "contemplative prayer" which is a deceptive term used by the promoters of the New Age religion, that has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.

HD



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/7/2008 6:59:20 PM)

True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/7/2008 10:52:24 PM)

quote:


previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete.


Many Fundamentalist churches have a mid-week prayer service. Since this is a man-made trandition would you scrap these services also?



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/8/2008 1:55:37 PM)

It really depends upon the form of prayer. My comment wasn't relating to foolish denominational struggles between fundamentalists, liberals, Roman Catholics etc...

It really was a comment toward empty repetitive prayers that lead to error. The Lord's Prayer (or the Our Father) is a prime example of this. Some have abandoned the entire prayer due to controversy. I myself began this "journey" by contemplating the Lord's prayer while I prayed it. Praying by rote is what leads to awful heresies like Contemplative (mantric) Prayer.



Heavendweller -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/9/2008 1:25:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?


Dan, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. Perhaps you misunderstand something I wrote. So, what do you mean by 1) "Why repeat a tradition that is incomplete?" and 2) "If works based prayer saved you, you wouldn't need Christ?"

Personally, I am not even one who has experienced contemplative prayer. Rather, I've read about it and conversed with those who have. However, prayer is expressed and practiced in many different ways.

For example, there is intercessory prayer, that is, pleading for the case of another. This are many examples of this in Sacred Scripture. Then there is meditative prayer, often used when pondering upon Sacred Scripture or the beauty of God's creation. Then there is prayer for healing. Sometimes prayer is calling out loud to God. Other times it is done interiorly. But I think in essence, prayer is communication and connection with the blessed Triune God.

HD



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (11/14/2008 12:23:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?


Dan, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. Perhaps you misunderstand something I wrote. So, what do you mean by 1) "Why repeat a tradition that is incomplete?" and 2) "If works based prayer saved you, you wouldn't need Christ?"

Personally, I am not even one who has experienced contemplative prayer. Rather, I've read about it and conversed with those who have. However, prayer is expressed and practiced in many different ways.

For example, there is intercessory prayer, that is, pleading for the case of another. This are many examples of this in Sacred Scripture. Then there is meditative prayer, often used when pondering upon Sacred Scripture or the beauty of God's creation. Then there is prayer for healing. Sometimes prayer is calling out loud to God. Other times it is done interiorly. But I think in essence, prayer is communication and connection with the blessed Triune God.

HD


Sure no problem Heavendweller. Jewish prayer was often prayed by those who did not know God, just as prayer from an unsaved "christian" would be today. Most Jewish prayers that I have seen are straight out of scripture and therefore reflect the incomplete original covenant with Isreal. Jewish prayers were also often repeated day after day or hour after hour. Now Jesus has completed the covenant and we are open to speak with God one on one. Most (mystic) Contemplatives want us to return to old testament Jewish practices. This leads most ((mystic) Contemplatives into spiritism, demon contact, visions etc etc etc, because Jesus taught us how to pray in Luke 11. No head bobbing needed. Just ask Dad.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (12/12/2008 9:08:02 AM)

Revelations says antichrist will consume all religions and Contemplative(Mantra) Prayer is his vehicle to do this.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/4/2009 9:46:02 AM)

"Is contemplative prayer really a vehicle to a closer walk with God? A Time of Departing documents clearly that far from being such a vehicle, contemplative prayer is more akin to a Trojan Horse. You may be very surprised to read of who the prime pawns are in this spiritually dangerous deception."

CECIL ANDREWS, TAKE HEED MINISTRIES
Northern Ireland



facedown -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/4/2009 3:59:38 PM)

Dan1138
quote:

True True True Heavendweller, previous two post's mention the Anglican prayer tradition and the Jewish prayer tradition, but why repeat a tradition that is incomplete. If works based prayer saved you you wouldn't need Christ. Why repeat prayers over and over? Do many words save you?


Are you not assuming much in these observations?
As an Anglican, I can certainly attest that our gatherings may, from the outside, be viewed as "repeated", and this is certainly intentional for the most part (though creativity and participation is probably the greatest strength). However, to assume "tradition" as "incomplete" - and - "works based prayer" or "repeat prayers" and thus conclude that the observation is then that "many words save" is quite an assumption.

Unless; of course, you can read the hearts and minds and inmost being of all those who participate?

quote:

It really was a comment toward empty repetitive prayers that lead to error.

"Empty repetitive prayers"?....Read above.

"Lead to Error"? What error?

quote:

Most (mystic) Contemplatives want us to return to old testament Jewish practices.
Ancient worship gatherings of those who followed the teachings of the Apostles held a very "Jewish" liturgical service. Comments?

Pax



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/4/2009 8:45:25 PM)

quote:

quote:
Most (mystic) Contemplatives want us to return to old testament Jewish practices.


so, praying and contemplating the Psalms would be in error?



abraxas -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/5/2009 11:52:37 AM)

Do you guys see a problem with meditation/"emptying the thoughts" per se, or just when it's used as a form of prayer?



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/5/2009 2:01:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Do you guys see a problem with meditation/"emptying the thoughts" per se, or just when it's used as a form of prayer?

meditation is not a problem when done Biblically, it is a problem when it involves emptying one's thoughts.



abraxas -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/6/2009 12:52:26 AM)

What is so bad about emptying one's thoughts?



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/6/2009 8:04:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

What is so bad about emptying one's thoughts?


Lu 21:14 - Show Context
Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer

What that means in the context of this thread IMO
Would be like ... to settle it in our hearts to meditate... would be to answer something that would be from ME = "you" will answer

That in itself still requires a thought... so to make a conscience decision to empty thoughts and requires a thought to do so…
SO it’s a catch 22… therefore it is not from God.



LG



abraxas -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/6/2009 9:41:55 AM)

Sorry LoyalGypsy, I don't quite get what you're saying. I read through the Luke chapter and Jesus is telling his followers not to worry about what to say to their adversaries, that he'll inspire them when the time comes.

Could you clarify?



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/6/2009 11:36:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

What is so bad about emptying one's thoughts?

I guess that depends on what you mean by emptying one's thoughts. This thread has numerous posts discussing what it means in the context of CP and/or meditation.



abraxas -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/7/2009 7:55:45 AM)

Okay, well I started to browse through the thread but it was too alarmist and extreme for me. So, whatever, I was just curious but not that curious. For anyone who deals with stress and whose mind won't settle down even when you want it to, "emptying the mind" as I understand it is a wonderful tool to have.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/7/2009 12:02:09 PM)

quote:

I was just curious but not that curious. For anyone who deals with stress and whose mind won't settle down even when you want it to, "emptying the mind" as I understand it is a wonderful tool to have.


"emptying" the mind is an impossibility as nature abhors a vacuum. Take a look through the Psalms and see all the occurances of the word "selah". The reason for its use is to focus the mind on the preceeding thought.



floydette -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/7/2009 3:01:38 PM)

Abraxas,

When a person "empties their mind" in a therapuetic manner, it is a laying aside that which troubles you, or stresses you in order to focus on something more calming - like the ocean, or a field of flowers, or a walk with Jesus. It isn't a complete emptying, but rather a re-focus. Since the trouble or stress factor is "gone" and not darting around your mind, it feels "empty." You are correct, being able to manage our stress is a great tool.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (1/7/2009 5:24:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Sorry LoyalGypsy, I don't quite get what you're saying. I read through the Luke chapter and Jesus is telling his followers not to worry about what to say to their adversaries, that he'll inspire them when the time comes.

Could you clarify?


Greetings

Sorry LoyalGypsy, I don't quite get what you're saying.

That’s ok.. Let’s try this…

Lu 21:14 - Show Context
Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer

quote:

Jesus is telling his followers not to worry about what to say to their adversaries, that he'll inspire them when the time comes.

That is true

If we look at what is not spoken there.. but is
Jesus is basically saying to us that…inspiration does not come from us,
And since we are to be open to the Spirit of God…. then we can by that principal above see….. That if we are to be inspired as to what to say,
Then emptying ones mind of thoughts allows it to filled by whatever comes that way

There seems to be no scripture to support that we should empty our heart.... because what comes “from the heart” determines what is in ones mind in the first place
…so to empty the mind empties the heart in like manner
…. and therefore leaves it open for suggestion…


John 5:43 - Show Context
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not “receive Me; “
………….if another comes… “in …his own name”, = self

“him you will receive”

SO if there is no scripture or principal by example in the Bible that we can measure that suggests we empty or thoughts
And if there is none … then it is a 50/50 **** shoot as to whom we will receive inspiration from in the process.

The scriptures speak more of the renewing of the mind, which is quite the opposite of emptying the mind,
There is more scripture to support that one is of Re-creation which involves “SELF”
….and even more by
The renewing of the mind that is from the creator
….they both are seen to go down different paths

And as mentioned by Jesus… the truth is………….if another comes…(into our heart) “in his own name”, = self

“him “you will”… receive”

Like John the Baptist for example… who was the forerunner of Christ Jesus
…. Think of it like those who practice that stuff being the forerunner for the AC… ….because 50 out of 100 will be open “to receive” him.

John 5:43 - Show Context
I have come ..in ....My Father's =(the creators) name, > (John 1 v3)
and you do not “receive Me; = >restoration

“if another comes… “in “his own” name ”, = (self)...“him you will receive” = >(Re-creation)... as opposed to I have come ..In ....My Father's =(the creators) name,

And a good picture of this new self proclaimed creator of the new world… is seen here
2Th 2:4 - Show Context
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped,
so that
"he sits" = (SELF) as God… in the temple of God, (our body)
showing ….“Himself”… that he is God. = (the creator!!)
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns “like a lamb”, but he spoke “like a dragon”.

Which Jesus said…
In not so many words..
“if another comes(1 Jo 2:18)… “in his own name ”, = self

“him you will receive” =Re-creation

But don’t take my word…..let’s watch those certain brethren closely in the upcoming months that are known to practice it already …
And listen VERY closely to any subtle compromises,

God is going to reveal the forerunners 50/50 [;)]

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The odds of emptying the mind do not seem to be in our favor to be playing around with in these end times... IMHO



LG



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