RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (Full Version)

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Catholicandloveit -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 10:25:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

I would sleep at night. As for mood music and lighting it is a trapping for the flesh. These trappings please mens' desires and are nothing to God. It is the attitude of your heart that is pleasing in prayer. After all the Saved man is the Temple. Night watches are no longer needed in a building called a temple. That is how mens' souls are endangered by the making of prayer itself into an Idol. Men return to old ways seeking a God they do not know just like Judaisers of the first century AD. You call it Harp and Bowl worship. All it is is responsive chanting that induces ecstasia, an alpha wave response in the brain that is a dream state while awake. Wiccans (witches) famously use this as a primary step to spell casting. As my wrestling coach used to say: "control the head, control the body"


Dan,

I understanding the wanting to sleep at night. But I wouldn't go so far as to say one can only pray during the day, you would agree right?

I also find your take on music very interesting. So interesting I am not really sure what to say only that I hope your post doesn't mean that music has no place in our life and that it is not pleasing to God. (BTW I understand that some music is offensive, I am talking about music were one could read the lyrics to their pastor.)

Your right it is the attitude of your heart that is important in prayer any type of prayer.

Pax,
Mary



DaveW -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 12:57:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

These trappings please mens' desires and are nothing to God.
Are you saying that God is unconcerned with our desires? (not sinful desires of course) That would indicate that He is unconcerned about us.

Do you have scripture to back that up?



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 4:00:25 PM)

quote:

Back to contempl. prayer. Gosh, it has been around for a very, very long time. Hundreds of years. It is a practice that believers have used, not as a mantra, but rather a way to focus on God. It could be compared to some worship choruses that are repetive, so that one can not focus on what the words are (trying to figure out when to come in, or what verse is next) but rather in that, to be able to focus on God and how he is speaking to our souls at that time.

That the church has been doing it for a long time does not necessarily make it right. The church has a long history of incorporating pagan practices into some of its practices, e.g. Christmas and Easter. God not only commands us not to worship false gods, He also commands us not to use the worship practices of pagan religions in our worship of Him (Deut. 12:31).

I too have studied contemplative (aka centering prayer) and the instructions given for how to practice this type of meditation is identical to the instructions for practicing transcendental meditation (I will provide documentation for this claim in a future post; I don't have time right now). The only difference between the two, is that contemplative parer uses words or short passages from the Bible for the mantra. That said, we must realize in our postmodern culture, "christian spirituality," is becoming increasingly popular. Christian spirituality, is the result of younger generations reclaiming an interest in spirituality, but these same people believe that all religions are equally true. Therefore, Christianity can be practiced by incorporating an ecclectic array of beliefs. Transcendental meditation, prayer labyrinths, and other practices are gaining popularity in many churches. People believe that if they engage in these rituals, they will grow closer to God. But what does God say about that? Do we need to engage in rituals to hear or connect with God? Apparently, a lot of people cannot answer these simple questions.

In the final analysis, we must test each teaching about meditation individually.

P.S. Dan 1138 you are doing an excellent job explaining the issue. Continue on!



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 5:12:33 PM)

Following up on my last post, the following in a short description of the purpose of contemplative prayer:

quote:

Centering Prayer is a method of prayer, which prepares us to receive the gift of God's presence, traditionally called contemplative prayer. It consists of responding to the Spirit of Christ by consenting to God’s presence and action within. It furthers the development of contemplative prayer by quieting our faculties to cooperate with the gift of God’s presence.
Centering Prayer

The question begging to be asked is where does the Bible indicate that before we can experience the "presence" of God, we must engage in a ritual? Or that we must consent before we will experience God's presence? Is God no longer sovereign?

If you click on the "methods" tab and read the introductory section you will discover that the proponants claim this form of prayer is an effort to reclaim the practice and place it in a contemporary context. If you study the practices of the Desert Fathers, you will recognize that contrary to the many claims made on this thread, they also practiced a "christianized" form of eastern meditation.

The following describes how practictioners of centering (contemplative) prayer suggest for how to engage in the ritual:
quote:

Centering Prayer Guidelines
Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within. (cf. Open Mind, Open Heart, chap. 5)

The sacred word expresses our intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.

The sacred word is chosen during a brief period of prayer asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us with one that is especially suitable for us.

Examples: God, Jesus, Abba, Father, Mother, Mary, Amen.

Other possibilities: Love, Peace, Mercy, Listen, Let Go, Silence, Stillness, Faith, Trust, Yes.

Instead of a sacred word a simple inward glance toward the Divine Presence or noticing one’s breath may be more suitable for some persons. The same guidelines apply to these symbols as to the sacred word.

The sacred word is sacred not because of its inherent meaning but because of the meaning we give it as the expression of our intention and consent.

Having chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period because that would be to start thinking again.

Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

“Sitting comfortably” means relatively comfortably so as not to encourage sleep during the time of prayer.

Whatever sitting position we choose, we keep the back straight.

We close our eyes as a symbol of letting go of what is going on around and within us.

We introduce the sacred word inwardly as gently as laying a feather on a piece of absorbent cotton.

Should we fall asleep upon awakening we continue the prayer.

When engaged with your thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.

“Thoughts” is an umbrella term for every perception, including sense perceptions, feelings, images, memories, plans, reflections, concepts, commentaries, and spiritual experiences.

Thoughts are an inevitable, integral and normal part of Centering Prayer.

By “returning ever-so-gently to the sacred word” a minimum of effort is indicated. This is the only activity we initiate during the time of Centering Prayer.

During the course of Centering Prayer, the sacred word may become vague or disappear.

At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.

The additional 2 minutes enables us to bring the atmosphere of silence into everyday life.

If this prayer is done in a group, the leader may slowly recite a prayer such as the Lord’s Prayer while the others listen.

The Guidelines

Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.

Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

When engaged with your thoughts*, return ever-sogently to the sacred word.

At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.

*Thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections

Centuring Prayer Methods

Notice that the intent is to cease thinking, which means to completely empty one's mind of all thoughts. Notice the definition for thoughts, then read the item immediately above it (both embolded) that reinforces the fact that the goal is to empty oneself of all these thoughts. Also notice that Biblical words are not necessary, the list also suggests that focusing on one's breathing, or some symbol is also acceptable. Finally, if you connect the dots between the the final note (thoughts include reflections), and the earlier statement (eventually even the word being focused on may disappear), it becomes evident that the intent of this practice is the complete emtying of the mind - the final thought to exit the mind is the focus of the mantra itself.

Some addittional information:
quote:

Tony Jones writes the following in his book, "Soul Shaper":
"The basic method in "The Cloud" (The Cloud of Unknowing) is to move beyond thinking into a place of utter stillness with the Lord." (pg. 73-74)

Writing about meditation, Jones says the following:
"Further, it's linked with the recent popularity in the West of Eastern religions...While this makes some Christians nervous, others revel in the fact that God is revealed in all truth, no matter the religion of origin." (pg. 87)

False religions do not possess any truth. If this comment elicits any responses, I'm sure that it will become evident that many of our brothers and sisters in the Lord, do not understand why Jone's statement is utterly untrue.

Finally, compare the practices for contemplative prayer listed above with the basic techniques for transcendental meditation:
quote:

Usually, a meditator begins by choosing a word that is associated with his own belief system. The meditator sits in a quiet area where he can meditate in a comfortable position. He needs to close his eyes and relax his muscles. While taking slow, natural breaths, he repeats his focus word as he exhales. This continues for between ten to twenty minutes. The meditator needs to concentrate only on his focus word, inhibiting other thoughts from being present. After the meditation session is complete, he should sit quietly with his eyes shut for a couple of minutes as he allows other thoughts to enter his mind. He can then rise after sitting for another couple of minutes with his eyes open. This technique should be practiced once or twice a day.
transcendental meditation


These similarities should cause all who are defending this practice to at least study the issue further.



p.progress -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 5:14:43 PM)

I have not read all the posts, just a few, so not going to comment on anything others have said here.

I don't know what this sort of 'prayer' is or how it is defined one way or another. I do know though a little about what I would call eastern or metaphysical sorts of 'prayer'; and I know what prayer is as defined by the revelation of scripture (prayer, meditation, supplication, entreating, etc. - both passive and aggressive in nature). I don't know if any herein are rejecting what I might refer to as 'passive' meditative prayer, as if it were nothing more than what I also would define as yogic or eastern (Buddist, Hinduistic) kinds of prayer and meditation. But there is a time in one's commune with the Father through the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus Christ the Lord, that the fervency that might be required to 'break through' into this communion with the Lord; and the fervency that is required and is really merely the nature of such prayer and supplication to God, when making requests to him on the behalf of others and situations of life in this world...I say that THAT kind of fervency is not needed AFTER one has sensed that they have received the petitions they hae made towards God. Once the peace comes, which WILL come, WHEN AFTER one has been tenaciously laboring in their pleadings towards the Lord in such times ad require this; THEN, then afterwards there is that peace and the time to reflect on the goodness...let me say it this way...the glory of God, as cannot be conceived of, grasped or appreciated any greater or more thoroughly then at such times.

I do not completely reject the thought of meditation with God that seemingly...and I mean seemingly, permits one 'mind' to go ' blank' or 'open'. But in my opinion, this is not really necessary, nor really possible or even desirous while in the presence of God. One cannot cease from thinking - not in reality. Rest or putting into 'neutral', so to speak, one's thoughts is one thing. That is, being attentive to listen to the voice or impressions upon the spirit and soul from God (his Spirit) is not to 'open your mind', in the way that takes place with those who have not FIRST come into the presence of God as is only possible with children of God through their union with Christ Jesus the Lord. I am saying that the disciplines of 'prayer' and 'meditation' that other religions teach and follow, do nothing to really draw them into the presence of the true peace and union with God. I am not saying there is no profit in their kind of meditation, but it has nothing to do with worshiping God as he truly is and is to be sought after and found.

I do know and see the metaphysical methods of 'meditation' and 'prayer' being repackaged (camoflaged) to appear to be scripturally sound. The reason for its success in flying under the radar and being accepted by professing believers in Christ, is that they are not being taught anything or know anything better themselves. And this ignorance and one's need to be close to God, permits them to swallow error in this area.

If all would stop being slothful in their profession to know God, and truly seek him as he desires them to, they would then get to really know him, and not be vulnerable to being deceived by false teachings in this or other areas that the scriptures speak to and teach on.



TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 7:01:16 PM)

Colliefan, I dont' see any evidence of Jesus praying contemplatively in the garden. He did not repeat a phrase over and over and enter into a stillness. The drops of blood like sweat would lead me to believe He was engaged in active discussion with His Father.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 8:30:12 PM)

Luke 5:15 - 16 (ESV) 15But now even more the report about him went abroad, and great crowds gathered to hear him and to be healed of their infirmities. 16But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

Deut 6:4 - 9 (ESV) 4“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.£ 5You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. Deuteronomy 6 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

We are to love the LORD with all of heart, mimf, soul, and strength. Contemplative praer is one way of doing so,



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/1/2008 10:47:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Luke 5:15 - 16 (ESV) 15But now even more the report about him went abroad, and great crowds gathered to hear him and to be healed of their infirmities. 16But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

Deut 6:4 - 9 (ESV) 4“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.£ 5You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. Deuteronomy 6 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

We are to love the LORD with all of heart, mimf, soul, and strength. Contemplative praer is one way of doing so,

colliefan,
there is nothing in the Luke passage you cited that says Jesus practiced contemplative prayer. A quiet place is a place away from the huslte and bustle of the crowds seeking to be ministered to, it does not mean that Jesus went to be quiet.

One of the commands that people were instructed to teach their children - also found in Deuteronomy - is not to worship God using pagan practices. Contemplative prayer is a pagan practrice; a fact its most ardent supporters among Catholics and Protestants freely admit. Loving God, therefore, must include obeying His commands, which means that Contemplative Prayer is not, as you say, one the ways in which we show that love.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 3:54:53 PM)

quote:

A quiet place is a place away from the huslte and bustle of the crowds seeking to be ministered to, it does not mean that Jesus went to be quiet.


Then why did he get away from the crowds?

Why did the Jews use phylactories and what was its purpose? Why were they to tie them around their heads/wrist?



Ezra -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 5:23:54 PM)

quote:

Centering Prayer is drawn from ancient prayer practices of the Christian contemplative heritage, notably the Fathers and Mothers of the Desert, Lectio Divina, (praying the scriptures), The Cloud of Unknowing, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.. It was distilled into a simple method of prayer in the 1970’s by three Trappist monks, Fr. William Meninger, Fr. Basil Pennington and Abbot Thomas Keating at the Trappist Abbey, St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts.

Christian Contemplative Prayer is the opening of mind and heart - our whole being - to God, the Ultimate Mystery, beyond thoughts, words and emotions, whom we know by faith is within us, closer than breathing, thinking, feeling and choosing; even closer than consciousness itself. The root of all prayer is interior silence. Though we think of prayer as thoughts or feelings expressed in words, this is only one expression. Contemplative Prayer is a prayer of silence, an experience of God’s presence as the ground in which our being is rooted, the Source from whom our life emerges at every moment.

For the Church's first sixteen centuries Contemplative Prayer was the goal of Christian spirituality. After the Reformation, this living tradition was virtually lost. Today, with cross-cultural dialogue and historical research, the recovery of the Christian contemplative heritage has begun. The method of Centering Prayer, in the tradition of Lectio Divina (praying the scriptures) is contributing to this renewal.


The above quotation seems to make it clear that "contemplative prayer" is really a monkish tradition. As they say above "it is a prayer of silence". However, in Scripture (and particularly in the Psalms which are prayers par excellence), we do not see the emphasis on silence but on active communication with God.

While there is no question that we are to still our hearts and minds and focus on the Godhead ("Be still and know that I am God"), we are commanded to pray (communicate with God) at all times, not merely sit in silence. In fact, we are to pour our hearts out to Him.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 7:07:49 PM)

Psa 4:3 - 4 (ESV) 3 But know that the Lord has set apart the godly for himself; the Lord hears when I call to him. 4 Be angry,£ and do not sin; ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 7:09:54 PM)

Psa 62:1 - 4 (ESV) 1 For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be greatly shaken. 3 How long will all of you attack a man to batter him, like a leaning wall, a tottering fence? 4 They only plan to thrust him down from his high position. They take pleasure in falsehood. They bless with their mouths, but inwardly they curse. Selah



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 7:16:01 PM)

Psa 131:1 - 3 (ESV) 1 O Lord, my heart is not lifted up; my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me. 2 But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child is my soul within me. 3 O Israel, hope in the Lord from this time forth and forevermore.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 7:18:17 PM)

Zeph 3:17 (ESV) 17 The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 7:22:08 PM)

Psa 46:8 - 11 (ESV) 8 Come, behold the works of the Lord, how he has brought desolations on the earth. 9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth; he breaks the bow and shatters the spear; he burns the chariots with fire. 10 “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!” 11 The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress. Selah



TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 9:07:07 PM)

CollieFan, no one is arguing with you that we are to be quiet before God. We need to be quiet to hear Him speak. Just like we need to shut our mouths so we can hear the other person in a conversation speak (I can't hear my husband if I don't stop talking).

But none of these verses indicate that we should spend a large amount of time in total silence or chanting some mantra or word to commune with God.

The use of the phylactories were to keep scriptures in them (slips of paper or whatever). It would be like our writing certain scriptures on index cards to refer to during the day if we were trying to memorize or if we needed encouragement for a particular situation we are in. I keep a booklet with me of "life scriptures" that I flip thru during the day or in the car (at stop lights) to remind myself of God's Word to me.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 9:10:40 PM)

Psa 46:10 (NASB) 10“CeaseH7503 striving and knowH3045 that I am GodH430;

H7503
øÈôÈä
râphâh
BDB Definition:
1) to sink, relax, sink down, let drop, be disheartened
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to sink down
1a2) to sink, drop
1a3) to sink, relax, abate
1a4) to relax, withdraw
1b) (Niphal) idle (participle)
1c) (Piel) to let drop
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to let drop, abandon, relax, refrain, forsake
1d2) to let go
1d3) to refrain, let alone
1d4) to be quiet
1e) (Hithpael) to show oneself slack
H3045
éÈãÇò
yâda‛
1) to know
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to know
1a1a) to know, learn to know
1a1b) to perceive
1a1c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
1a1d) to discriminate, distinguish
1a1e) to know by experience
1a1f) to recognize, admit, acknowledge, confess
1a1g) to consider
1a2) to know, be acquainted with
1a3) to know (a person carnally)
1a4) to know how, be skilful in
1a5) to have knowledge, be wise
1b oneself known, reveal oneself



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 9:15:24 PM)

quote:

But none of these verses indicate that we should spend a large amount of time in total silence or chanting some mantra or word to commune with God.


No one is making it a mandate. It is but one way to meditate on God's truth. God's truth is what is important. How we process that truth is up to the individual's makeup.

It is like arguing how the offering is received on a Sunday morning. Pass the plate, leave it at the altar, have a box in back of the sanctuary,



TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 9:50:39 PM)

I disagree. If you go to the "instructions" on how to prayer contemplatively, it is not in line with the Bible.

How to take up the offering is not a "spiritual" issue. Whether you pass the plate or leave it at the altar is not going against any Biblical principles.

I agree that how one wants to prayer - standing, sitting, kneeling, out loud, in your head, journaling, singing - whatever. AS LONG as it lines up with Biblical principles. Mantras - repeating a word over and over is not Biblical.

If you want to get quiet before God and remove all distractions so you can fully concentrate on what you are saying to God and what He is saying to you - go for it. If you want to slip into a .... I don't even know what its called, but an altered state of awareness, maybe, that moves you out of being in full control of your mind, you have stepped out of Biblical principle, in my opinion.

I think the term contemplative prayer has different meanings, but you need to go back to where it started if you are going to use this term. If new Christians hear "contemplative prayer" and begin meditation w/chants, etc. and they open themselves to demonic oppression, then they have been caused to stumble which is clearly spoken against in the Word (Romans).



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 9:52:52 PM)

Psa 139:23 - 24 (NASB) 23SearchH2713 me, O GodH410, and knowH3045 my heartH3824; TryH974 me and knowH3045 my anxiousH8312 thoughtsH8312; 24And seeH7200 ifH518 there be any hurtfulH6090a wayH1870 in me, And leadH5148 me in the everlastingH5769 wayH1870.

quote:

H2713
חָקַר
châqar
khaw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to penetrate; hence to examine intimately:—find out, (make) search (out), seek (out), sound, try.


quote:

H3824
לֵבָב
lêbâb
lay-bawb'
From H3823; the heart (as the most interior organ); used also like H3820:— + bethink themselves, breast, comfortably, courage, ([faint], [tender-] heart([-ed]), midst, mind, X unawares, understanding.


quote:

H974
בָּחַן
bâchan
baw-khan'
A primitive root; to test (especially metals); generally and figuratively to investigate:—examine, prove, tempt, try (trial).


quote:

H8312
שַׂרְעַף
śarʽaph
sar-af'
For H5587; cogitation:—thought
.

quote:

H7200
רָאָה
râ’âh
raw-aw'
A primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitively, intransitively and causatively):—advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see (-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-) spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions


quote:

H518
אִם
ʼim
eem
A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo!; interrogitive, whether?; or conditional, if, although; also Oh that!, when; hence as a negative, not:—(and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.


quote:

H6090a
עֹצֶב
otseb (780d); from H6087a; a pain:—hurtful (1), pain (2).


quote:

H1870
דֶּרֶךְ
derek
deh'-rek
From H1869; a road (as trodden); figuratively a course of life or mode of action, often adverbially:—along, away, because of, + by, conversation, custom, [east-] ward, journey, manner, passenger, through, toward, [high-] [path-] way [-side], whither [-soever].

quote:

H5148
נָחָה
nâchâh
naw-khaw'
A primitive root; to guide; by implication to transport (into exile, or as colonists):—bestow, bring, govern, guide, lead (forth), put, straiten
.

quote:

H5769
עֹלָם עוֹלָם
ʽôlâm ʽôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 10:04:19 PM)

quote:

repeating a word over and over is not Biblical.


Rev 7:11 - 17 (ESV) 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/2/2008 10:05:38 PM)

quote:

and they open themselves to demonic oppression, then they have been caused to stumble which is clearly spoken against in the Word (Romans).


Where is your Biblical proof?



floydette -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/3/2008 10:10:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

Mantras - repeating a word over and over is not Biblical.


And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rev. 4:8


Trust,

So what is the difference in what you are saying and the above verse.

Also, do you know anyone who practiced contemplative prayer? Have you been able to see the fruit that it produces in a person's life? The contemplatives that I know are for the most part the most humble, full of love, joy, peace, etc than anyone I know. If this was "demonic" you would not see this type of fruit, correct?



mushhead -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/3/2008 2:34:34 PM)

quote:

Then why did he get away from the crowds?

colliefan,
He got away from the crowds to spend time alone with God. Why? I believe we agree on the answer to that question. Where we seem to disagree is on the meaning and practice of "be still and know" or "meditation." The question that we must answer, is whether or not the practice of contemplative (centering) prayer that is proposed for today's church is consistant with the whole council of God's word, or is it an attempt to incorporate pagan practices into Christianity?

As TrustingGod said, there is nothing in any of the passages you cited that support the contemplative practices being championed by its proponants. This conclusion is not only supported by the fact that contemplative prayer is virtually identical to eastern meditation practices, but it is also supported by other passages of Scripture (not cited by you) that teach us about prayer.



9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
”‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:9-15)
Nowhere in this passage does Jesus instruct the Apostles or us to engage in anything like contemplative prayer. If the practice is so critical to our relationship with the Father, it stands to reason that the New Testament would contain some specific instructions on the subject.

The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.(1 Peter 4:7)

The King James version translates the Greek word "sophroneo" as "sober." The Greek word means, "be clear minded", or to exercise "sef-control." In the context of self-control, clear minded does not mean to clear one's mind, but instead implies, thinking rightly, or sanely about something. In other words, it implies active and focused thought for the purpose of facilitating prayer. Contemplative prayer instructions seek to facilitate the opposite of that goal. This passage alone contradicts the practices of contemplative prayer, the purpose of which is to empty one's mind in order to facilitate God's presence.

I don't think we disagree over the need to be quiet before God; we seem to disagree over how that silence is practiced.



peacebringer -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (8/3/2008 3:47:46 PM)

This is an interesting thread and I think the contemplative practice of prayer is much misunderstood and true biblical contemplation is not understood. I don't have the answer to this. I believe there are certain practices that are outside the scope of Christianity, like Yoda and other eastern practices.

Please note that contemplative prayer is not just the domain and origniation from RC. As already pointed out Eastern Orthodox practice it. Contemplative prayer also very central to celtic christianity. I have yet to trace down Jewish roots or early fathers roots of contemplation.

The primary practive being focused on is focusing on words or phrases and repeating them over and over in mind.

To me the bare esseence of true contemplation is listening to God. Listening for the still small voice or the voice of the shepard. Biblical contemplation should be different then TM, mindfulness, and so on.

I think it is a wrong conclusion to say because there are these folks who are deceived or practice incorrectly that it is all anathema. Did not Jesus state don't use many words and followed up with a pattern prayer. I know Jewish practice is filled with patterned prayers from the bit I understand of the Jewish style of prayer.



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