RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (Full Version)

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TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/26/2008 12:58:41 PM)

TheCatholicCrusader, your meaning of Contemplative prayer is a good one from your perspective - and not one to find fault in - except maybe in the "how do you do it" department. What do you mean by the mystery of prayer, silent love, real union, and sharing in his mystery?

Again, if you look at the beginnings of Contemplative Prayer, it is emptying the mind - which I believe is not directed in the Bible.



JesKlu -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/26/2008 3:50:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

Let me give you a basic look at Contemplative prayer.... You go into your inner room, just like Jesus suggested, and speak to your father in heaven using the Biblical canon as a gateway into His heart. Conteplative prayer is NOT the emptying of your mind, such as eastern mysticism, but is the focusing of your mind singularly on God. Eastern Mysticism teaches the emptying of oneself to allow for enlightenment... Christian Mysticism, on the other hand teaches the "putting off the old man, and putting on Christ". This is the biggest difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism (aka, contemplative prayer).

Adam


That's how I see it. There is a book in the Eastern Orthodox tradition which is really good. It is called On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus. You are basically told to go into a quiet room, say (invoke) the name of Jesus gracefully over and over for a few minutes every day, but every person is different too, so the time limit will be different with each person. It's goal actually is to fill your mind with the name of Jesus, so when you face temptation you will automatically mentally repeat the name of Jesus, so when you think of Jesus, it will be a lot harder to fall into that temptation that you were about to fall into.

This is the entire opposite of Eastern mysticism which calls for emptying your mind. This devotion calls you to fill your mind with the name of Jesus.

Devotions can actually help you grow in your faith.

Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 4:21:14 AM)

quote:

That's how I see it. There is a book in the Eastern Orthodox tradition which is really good. It is called On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus.
Thanks Jessica! That is a really good book... and I gotta admit, I got respect for the Eastern Orthodox crowd.

Catholic_Crusader's response is a more detailed explaination of the exact same thing, and hits the same nail on the head. Contemplative prayer could also be called "communing prayer" (and is called such by several of those referred to as "Christian Mystics"), and often involves silently speaking to God with your heart rather than your words. Isolation is not mandatory, but can be very helpful just the same. However, the foundation for contemplative prayer is the writ of scripture. In the middle ages, Psalms, song of solomon, and John were often the text of choice for using the Bible as the "gateway to God's heart". The point of Contemplative prayer, unlike eastern mysticism, is communing with God for the sake of Love. Eastern Mysticism is about emptying yourself to gain universal enlightenment for the sake of being enlightened, progressing to the next life with honor, and coming one step closer to Nirvana. That is a huge difference.

Adam



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 1:57:50 PM)

Psa 4:2 - 4 (ESV) 2 O men,£ how long shall my honor be turned into shame? How long will you love vain words and seek after lies? Selah 3 But know that the Lord has set apart the godly for himself; the Lord hears when I call to him. 4 Be angry,£ and do not sin; ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah

Psa 77:10 - 15 (ESV) 10 Then I said, “I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High.”£ 11 I will remember the deeds of the Lord; yes, I will remember your wonders of old. 12 I will ponder all your work, and meditate on your mighty deeds. 13 Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God? 14 You are the God who works wonders; you have made known your might among the peoples. 15 You with your arm redeemed your people, the children of Jacob and Joseph. Selah

Psa 143:1 - 6 (ESV) 1 Hear my prayer, O Lord; give ear to my pleas for mercy! In your faithfulness answer me, in your righteousness! 2 Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you. 3 For the enemy has pursued my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me sit in darkness like those long dead. 4 Therefore my spirit faints within me; my heart within me is appalled. 5 I remember the days of old; I meditate on all that you have done; I ponder the work of your hands. 6 I stretch out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you like a parched land. Selah



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:18:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
For anyone who is interested:

...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

It is true that this heresy started again from the Catholic Church....

Heresy? Since when is meditating on Christs life heresey? Contemplating the mysteries of God is a good thing. Besides, unless God appointed you as His personal Oracle, you are not the judge of what is heresey and what is not.


7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

quote:

A humorous statement, since "Sola Scriptura" is found nowhere in the Bible, and is itself a tradition of men that was begun in the 16th centurty. Besides, we gave you your New Testament. Thanks for reading our book.


"Sola Scriptura" is what Paul and the other Apostles practiced. They never quoted the New Testament. By the way it is Gods' word not your word. The difference is power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138
....If you want to quote or promote Catholicism there is a thread for that....

I'm not promoting anything. I am providing another perspective. And I will post my perspective wherever I please.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138
If you want to quote Catholic try the mystical monks of the middle ages or Teresa of Avila or Brother Laurence who was known for his fits of insane leaping and lunging around the room when affected by a spirit?

You mean like the Pentacostals do? So what. How do you know how the Holy Spirit can affect different individuals? You are not in a position to judge people you have never met.
Yes Catholics and Pentacostals have much in common with regards to your mystical practices. Do you not know that many Catholics are charismatic? I have said many times that mysticism will unite World religion but not True Christianity. Christians will be kept by the Holy Spirit.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:23:42 PM)

quote:

They never quoted the New Testament.


Wrong. Peter gave Paul's letters the same equivalent as the OT.

2 Pet 3:14 - 16 (ESV) 14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:28:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

I think the problem is defining meditation/contemplative. I'm all for meditating on the Word and on what God has done for me. However, meditation is thinking/dwelling on these things. Digesting them, working them out, applying them, using them in my life.

What I'm opposed to is the concept (which is the origin of Contemplative Prayer) of emptying my mind so I can have some type of "mystical" experience. In my research of Contemplative Prayer, this is the goal of Contemplative Prayer.

We can argue what we believe contemplative prayer is but the problem is when you use the phrase "Contemplative Prayer" you have to keep in mind of what that really means - where it orginates. Mature Christians can understand that mediating on the Word means what it means. However, younger Christians who aren't as familiar with discerning may be led astray by those who wish to draw them into something that will draw them away from God.

It is important for everyone to research what the Word of God says. The Bible contains everything we need to know in regard to our spiritual relationship with God. It is the foundation. Any "revelation" that does not line up with the Bible cannot be trusted.


I could not have said it better myself, but who believed your report? You make great sense.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:39:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

Let me give you a basic look at Contemplative prayer.... You go into your inner room, just like Jesus suggested, and speak to your father in heaven using the Biblical canon as a gateway into His heart. Conteplative prayer is NOT the emptying of your mind, such as eastern mysticism, but is the focusing of your mind singularly on God. Eastern Mysticism teaches the emptying of oneself to allow for enlightenment... Christian Mysticism, on the other hand teaches the "putting off the old man, and putting on Christ". This is the biggest difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism (aka, contemplative prayer).

Adam


That's how I see it. There is a book in the Eastern Orthodox tradition which is really good. It is called On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus. You are basically told to go into a quiet room, say (invoke) the name of Jesus gracefully over and over for a few minutes every day, but every person is different too, so the time limit will be different with each person. It's goal actually is to fill your mind with the name of Jesus, so when you face temptation you will automatically mentally repeat the name of Jesus, so when you think of Jesus, it will be a lot harder to fall into that temptation that you were about to fall into.

This is the entire opposite of Eastern mysticism which calls for emptying your mind. This devotion calls you to fill your mind with the name of Jesus.

Devotions can actually help you grow in your faith.

Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica


When you repeat a word or phrase it loses all meaning very quickly and just becomes noise. Like white noise the mind is able to be manipulated by spirits of an evil sort. You really need to study the works of those who refute Mantra.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:46:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Psa 4:2 - 4 (ESV) 2 O men,£ how long shall my honor be turned into shame? How long will you love vain words and seek after lies? Selah 3 But know that the Lord has set apart the godly for himself; the Lord hears when I call to him. 4 Be angry,£ and do not sin; ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah

Psa 77:10 - 15 (ESV) 10 Then I said, “I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High.”£ 11 I will remember the deeds of the Lord; yes, I will remember your wonders of old. 12 I will ponder all your work, and meditate on your mighty deeds. 13 Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God? 14 You are the God who works wonders; you have made known your might among the peoples. 15 You with your arm redeemed your people, the children of Jacob and Joseph. Selah

Psa 143:1 - 6 (ESV) 1 Hear my prayer, O Lord; give ear to my pleas for mercy! In your faithfulness answer me, in your righteousness! 2 Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you. 3 For the enemy has pursued my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me sit in darkness like those long dead. 4 Therefore my spirit faints within me; my heart within me is appalled. 5 I remember the days of old; I meditate on all that you have done; I ponder the work of your hands. 6 I stretch out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you like a parched land. Selah
quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

I think the problem is defining meditation/contemplative. I'm all for meditating on the Word and on what God has done for me. However, meditation is thinking/dwelling on these things. Digesting them, working them out, applying them, using them in my life.

What I'm opposed to is the concept (which is the origin of Contemplative Prayer) of emptying my mind so I can have some type of "mystical" experience. In my research of Contemplative Prayer, this is the goal of Contemplative Prayer.

We can argue what we believe contemplative prayer is but the problem is when you use the phrase "Contemplative Prayer" you have to keep in mind of what that really means - where it orginates. Mature Christians can understand that mediating on the Word means what it means. However, younger Christians who aren't as familiar with discerning may be led astray by those who wish to draw them into something that will draw them away from God.

It is important for everyone to research what the Word of God says. The Bible contains everything we need to know in regard to our spiritual relationship with God. It is the foundation. Any "revelation" that does not line up with the Bible cannot be trusted


The difference between true Christian Meditation and Contemplative Prayer is a technique of repetition that empties the mind. I have meditated on God and his word since I was a child. I have never nor will I ever use modern Contemplative Prayer. If you want the truth about it start looking. It is not anywhere supported in the Bible.



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 6:56:30 PM)

In the western mindset we think of the words “life” and “time” as something concrete and measurable. But the bible uses words that are difficult to translate to a single English words. We simply cannot quantify the Greek words zoe and chronos as something we can easily get into our rational mindset.

G2198
ζάω
zaō

1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
2) to enjoy real life
2a) to have true life and worthy of the name
2b) active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
3) to live, i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting
3a) of mortals or character
4) living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul
5) metaphorically to be in full vigour
5a) to be fresh, strong, efficient
5b) as adjective active, powerful, efficacious

G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'

Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time:—X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while

There remains some mystery – according to the bible – about our faith,

1 Tim 3:15 - 16 (HCSB) 15But if I should be delayed, I have written so that you will know how people ought to act in God’s household,£ which is the church of the living God,£ the pillar and foundation of the truth.£ 16And most certainly, the mystery of godliness£ is great:
He£ was manifested in the flesh,£
justified in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the Gentiles,
believed£ on in the world,
taken up in glory.£



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/27/2008 10:55:51 PM)

lectio divina as a part of prayer



DaveW -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/28/2008 6:31:18 AM)

In some charismatic circles, contemplative prayer is called Listening Prayer. It was basicly a protestant re-discovery of what the EOC and RCC had been doing from way before the reformation: contemplative prayer.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/28/2008 7:24:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

lectio divina as a part of prayer


This is part of a liberal allegorical form of scripture interpretation of the OT Jews, that Jesus taught against. Pharisees were legalists and therefore solidified into a single powerful ruling movement. Liberals in judaism as in all religions spread across many mindsets. After the Apostles died much of this liberal error creeped in.

This is a sort of what Paul wrote to Timothy about in 1 Timothy 6:

3If anyone (E)advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with (F)sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine (G)conforming to godliness,

4he is (H)conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in (I)controversial questions and (J)disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

5and constant friction between (K)men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who (L)suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

6(M)But godliness actually is a means of (N)great gain when accompanied by (O)contentment.

God wants you to use your mind, please show me how the Gracious God of A.W. Tozer wants us mindless and silent to get close to Him. If you are saved then the Holy Spirit lives within you without these liberal jirations.



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/28/2008 7:42:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

In some charismatic circles, contemplative prayer is called Listening Prayer. It was basicly a protestant re-discovery of what the EOC and RCC had been doing from way before the reformation: contemplative prayer.


In the book of revelations it speaks of Nicolaitans and Balaamites which have practiced evil from early in the time of the Old Testament until the end of the Church, so age of the idolotry you profess is irrelevant. Some charismatics handle snakes. Charismatism is a great way for liberalism to enter the Body of Christ like a disease. I have seen so many broken down Saints get beat up by liars who tell them they cannot see or hear God because they didn't speak in tongues or pray with enough fervency. God is a loving Father who lets you simply come to Him without extra spiritual Silence or Mantra. Perhaps all this Contemplative Praying is simply to quiet a good conscience that bothers a poor wretched sinner. I tell people to listen to that calling. To the dying it is stench, but to the Elect it is sweet. If you are unsaved, perhaps you need this Contemplative Prayer like a drug. It certainly takes many bizarre forms like shofar trumpets and laser beam emitters shooting coded prayer into outer space. This is what they did at "the Call." Are you OK with that?



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/28/2008 12:13:57 PM)

quote:

3If anyone (E)advocates a different doctrine


Doctrine is simply teaching derived from the words of scripture. Lectio divina is simply a way of processing those words. The difference is not in the teaching but its style. When one starts to place the style of teaching over its substance, that is idolatry. Where the style is valued over the subject, it also leaglism. It is the heart of being a Pharisee.



Ps103 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/28/2008 12:22:14 PM)

quote:

I'm not promoting anything. I am providing another perspective. And I will post my perspective wherever I please.


Um, sorry, but not if it is a violation of the Terms of Service you agreed to when you joined this community.

Please bear that in mind.

Thanks!

Do not reply to this message within the Community, or send me pms or emails about it.

If you have a question or concern, contact community@salemwebnetwork.com



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/29/2008 3:45:02 AM)

quote:

It certainly takes many bizarre forms like shofar trumpets and laser beam emitters shooting coded prayer into outer space. This is what they did at "the Call."
Uhm... shofar trumpets, yes. Laser canons? no. Secondly, true contemplative prayer is predicated on an already existing relationship with God. Unless you are willing to say that simply being quiet and praying internally sacrifices your spirit entirely.

And before we go to far with the whole "age of idolatry" stuff, let us remember that (A) Jesus is Jewish and (B) the Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people and prophecies regarding the future of all mankind. So in that regard, Old Testament principle would be more "Christlike" than New Testament Pauline doctrine. However, I digress. As it was once said...

"The New Testament only makes sense through the interpretive lense of the Old Testament, and there is no greater written commentary on the Old Testament than the New Testament."

Adam



Catholicandloveit -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/29/2008 8:02:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138
God is a loving Father who lets you simply come to Him without extra spiritual Silence or Mantra.


No one has said He isn't (or at least not that I see)

quote:

Perhaps all this Contemplative Praying is simply to quiet a good conscience that bothers a poor wretched sinner.


The idea of contemplative prayer is to bring one to a closer relationship with God. (this type of prayer is just one of many ways that one can find a closer relationship btw not saying its the best or for everyone.) Can prayer quiet a conscience, perhaps if the prayer leads one to understand their sin and accept forgiveness. God like you mentioned is like a good father, he wants us to understand how our sin separates us from him but he doesn't want us to be bothered by our conscience forever, like a good parent there is always love before during and after some sinful choice. We have to accept this love there for not quieting the conscience but healing our relationship, which seams like something that should happen in prayer.

quote:

If you are unsaved, perhaps you need this Contemplative Prayer like a drug.


Isn't prayer the 1st step in most people's personal relationship with God, and don't we all need prayer to maintain that relationship. I say not like a drug but like water, food and air.

quote:

It certainly takes many bizarre forms like shofar trumpets and laser beam emitters shooting coded prayer into outer space.


When did contemplative prayer become some coded mess we shoot into outer space with lasers?



TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/29/2008 7:25:07 PM)

I was driving to work this morning and decided to leave the radio off and was thinking about prayer. I heard the verse "Be Still and know that I am God" in my head. And it hit me. It was like God saying, "Just be quiet and listen to me." Like a parent, we tell our kids "hush up and listen", "I'm the parent, I know what is best for you." God is telling us to be still and listen to Him.

So I thought about the trance-like state that is described by "Contemplative gurus" and I realize that this is not what God wants. I love my son very much - more than words could express. When he and I are communicating, I don't want him to start repeating a phrase over and over and try to clear his mind to receive some kind of experience. I want him focused on what we are discussing.

This is what God wants with us. Intelligent conversation, two-way communication, relationship. He doesn't want us zoning off into some state. He doesn't want to sit and listen to us repeat a phrase over and over.



DaveW -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/30/2008 1:32:44 PM)

Right.

One person looks at something and attaches a name (X) to it and calls it bad. The next person looks at something different, perhaps bearing some superficial resemblance, calls it by the same name (X) and says it is good. Then they argue over whether X is good or bad.

That is what is going on in this thread.



floydette -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/30/2008 5:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1138

Contemplatives are regularly taught to completely empty their minds.


Dan, where are you getting your information?



TrustingGod -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/30/2008 6:51:29 PM)

From a website teaching contemplative prayer:
"Do not allow your thoughts or feelings to get in the way. When thoughts come into your mind, gently let go of them"
"Put your faith and love into the word or phrase."


I just did a search for Contemplative prayer and read several sites. Most indicated that we are to say a word or mantra over and over and if we find ourselves straying from that word or mantra, we are to refocus on it. How many of you who support contemplative prayer would want your child or spouse sitting with you and repeating a word over and over - blocking you out. WHY DO YOU THINK GOD WOULD WANT THIS?



colliefan -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/30/2008 9:32:58 PM)

quote:


I just did a search for Contemplative prayer and read several sites


Just a couple. Did you go to every site?

Comtemplative prayer has been around since the dawn of the church. Granted, there are new age "churches" that try and intergrate eastern teaching. But to say this is true of all churches would be saying all churches follow WOF teachings simply b/c a small fragment follow their heresy.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/31/2008 3:09:13 AM)

quote:

Comtemplative prayer has been around since the dawn of the church.
Quite so. The earliest known "Christian Mystic" (of Catholic origin, anyway) was actually Origen in the late 300's AD.
quote:

How many of you who support contemplative prayer would want your child or spouse sitting with you and repeating a word over and over - blocking you out.
And here we see the difference in paradigm. Contemplative prayer is not the same as sitting in a room with someone and saying the same phrase over and over. Imagine something more along the lines of you and your spouse sitting on the sofa in front of a fire cuddling. You don't have to say much of anything, but you are still communing and feeling love for each other. That is the point of Contemplative Prayer. For people who pray so little, we have very narrow definitions of what prayer actually is. Contemplative prayer is you sitting in a room letting God hug your spirit, for lack of a better term. This is far removed from, say, intercession, where you are specifically making your requests known to God. The "mindless repetition" of a single phrase, while not even close to mandatory for contemplative prayer, is nothing more than a helpful way to keep your mind focused singularly on God.

Adam



Dan1138 -> RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? (7/31/2008 8:05:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

It certainly takes many bizarre forms like shofar trumpets and laser beam emitters shooting coded prayer into outer space. This is what they did at "the Call."
Uhm... shofar trumpets, yes. Laser canons? no.


On 7-7-07 at "The Call," of which Mike Bickle is the Director, shot laser beam prayers into space. Mike Bickle is also founder of IHOP (International House of Prayer) a heavily Contemplative group. This is what was said by Ray Hughes of MorningStar Ministries:

"Right before we do this, I want you to know that a renowned scientist inventor has invented a device that literally takes the sound and converts it back to light. And there are five lasers going forth out of this, and every sound of our voice, the sound of our praise, the sound of our proclamation literally (inaudible) goes 25,000 miles into space beyond the (inaudible) , and we’re going to praise the Lord in the heights - in the heavens, according to the word of David."

MorningStar Ministries is Rick Joyners' thing.

It is all about the experience. Is this how King David saw this?



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