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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/8/2008 8:00:46 AM
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DaveW
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Well, we know it was a skin (leather) of some kind. Whether God killed an animal or just materialized it out of thin air is not known, and it is usless to speculate.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/8/2008 9:44:15 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1539
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
What do you think about a rich but naked person?
My understanding of the church of Laodacia(?) were that they thought they were doing well with their giving and wokrs, but they were lacking in their spiritual life. They were neither hot nor cold.
Believers can full of works(rich), but leacking spiritually(naked)
Livloved and Kingdust, which denomination are you affiliated with?
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/8/2008 1:55:00 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Livloved and Kingdust, which denomination are you affiliated with?
Deb,
I'm going to take that question as your desire to hear my testimony because that is the context needed. I was raised in a Swiss Reformed church started by my ancestors when they immigrated to this country. In the 1950's that church became the United Church of Christ which is now one of the most liberal denominations. (Which would have my ancestors eyes rolling and heads shaking no doubt.)
But like Isaiah, I saw the Lord, high and lifted up in that most liberal church! God was there. His word was read and preached (though inaccurately at times) and wonderful hymns were sung---Holy, Holy, Holy being the first hymn in our hymnal and my favorite.
On Sunday afternoons I would come home from church and be in my room and a sense of conviction would come over me (woe is me for I am a girl of unclean lips). I knew God was holy and I was not. And He loved me and wanted a relationship with me. So He kept coming, calling to me. And I answered.
He provided two young girls (one a cousin and one a friend) who told me about God's plan of salvation through Jesus. I became a Pioneer Girl (held in my friend's church) and I learned more about Jesus and the sin He set me free from.
Since then I have continued to seek the Lord and found Him faithful and sufficient for my every need. I attended Bible Study Fellowship and through that developed the habit of regular Bible reading and study. But most importantly I learned that Jesus wants to fellowship with me, wants me to know Him as He knows me.
He has been my teacher and guide. As the Lord began to grow me up, my husband was watching and he was drawn into a deeper relationship with the Lord as well. My husband and I have attended numerous denominations, nondenominationals and home gatherings. We are not attached to any denomination. We are attached to Jesus and teach and share His life among our friends, acquaintances, neighbors and strangers as He allows. We've had Bible studies in our home for eighteen years---using Navigator, Kay Arthur, Howard Hendricks and other materials but mostly just using the Bible.
Anyway, I hope that helps you understand me. Bless you, dear  . LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/9/2008 8:20:13 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Well, we know it was a skin (leather) of some kind. Whether God killed an animal or just materialized it out of thin air is not known, and it is usless to speculate.
You don't say!
Without speculating, you won't be able to somewhat cover your understanding of the uncharted realms, in physical or spiritual world.
We can't even live a day without doing so, because every second that is not NOW is to be speculated to move on living.
Even no commerce can be done, without speculating, in hope of making profit.
No vacation can be planed, no nothing.
Don't even think about buying stocks to prepare for your future if you think it is useless to speculate.
The speculation covers the holes unable to fill with perfect seeing, understanding, or knowing.
You and I know that our way of perceiving things is not perfect, which desperately is in need of covering.
Yes, it is so much like the fig tree cover, which has a lot of holes in itself, but without covering, we can't go nowhere.
We can only see the reflected image of the world made out in our subjective mirror that is like the bronze mirror Paul mentioned; Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
We may believe that we see without speculating!
Now, let us see another side of the coin of speculation.
How in the world can you distinguish speculation from spiritual revelation?
How do you know that Paul didn't speculate things?
How can you say what you know is not based on speculation but 100% pure spiritual reality?
How can you learn anything from things happened a long time ago, forfeiting the chance of eye witnessing from you?
What is the use of the old books to teach people in contemporary time frame?
Can't we just learn lessons under the cover of speculation that can profit us, physical or spiritual?
We would be better off with even speculation cover than nothing at all, doing nothing.
Can't you see a lot of wholes in my thoughts speculated?
Please cloth me with your better thoughts, at least, the better English.
If you can come up with a better cover, then, I will gladly take off mine and put on yours.
PS, I think out discussion, though speculating, is an act of covering by uncovering holes and filling with mud, hay, wood, or golden materials of thoughts and opinions.
I am more than ready to exchange mine for better materials.
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/9/2008 9:24:47 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
What do you think about a rich but naked person?
My understanding of the church of Laodacia(?) were that they thought they were doing well with their giving and wokrs, but they were lacking in their spiritual life. They were neither hot nor cold.
Believers can full of works(rich), but leacking spiritually(naked)
Livloved and Kingdust, which denomination are you affiliated with?
So then, what do you say you are, a rich with cover(s), or a poor with no cover?
Do you think you don't need any other cover in certain areas of your life where there is some sort of lack?
I don't think my denomination has anything to do with my personal opinion, but I can't deny, like Obama, that I have been siting under my non-denominational church and not influenced.
I go to Brooklyn Tabernacle church in NYC, famous for the grand choir.
However, I don't know how my pastor think about the nakedness and cover in relation to the rich and naked person in the Book of Revelation.
I can't sit with him, asking for his because in such a big church he has enough burden to carry.
You can visit brooklyntabernacle.org and evaluate his sermons for yourself.
In the mean time, you can tell me if you go to bed fully clothed in order not to be caught off guard by a thief.
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/9/2008 2:35:10 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Maybe I'm just not that deep of a thinker when it comes to symbolism, which I think this thread is about. Being literally covered is something I've neevr really thought of and have heard Word of Faith teachers teach something similer to this. I'm pretty simple when it comes to my inderstanding of what Jesus did for us and that's fine with me.
You're thought full (full of thought) and THAT'S what counts! So praise the Lord, sister. I do love ya! Don't ever stop pondering what scripture teaches. Don't ever construct a box that everything fits neatly in. If you do, you'll end up finding yourself in the box and suffocating, KWIM?
Anyway, I had never heard of WOF until this forum. I don't get into following the winds of doctrine that sweep across the land. I follow Jesus and Him crucified and keep my eyes fixed on Him and those He brings along my path. Sure He's brought some with strange teachings/beliefs along my path. But I just love 'em and if we have the opportunity, we teach them and encourage them to be in the scriptures to find out if what they believe is so. If you teach others to love Jesus and fellowship with Him, He'll straighten out their wrong theology eventually---I'm believing that for me and for others! Bless ya, Deb!  LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/10/2008 11:16:54 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Kingdust and Liveloved,
Thanks for the info. I have read a few of Jim Cymbala;s books and really were blessed. I went to see him at Moody awhile bake and it was really neat.
I am more than blessed because I can listen to his sermons every Sunday and the wonderful choir, too, which consist of all kinds and walks of people, literally because of all colors like black, white, yellow, even green (either Irish or green party folks ) people well mixed in a melting pot.
If you ever visit NYC, visit our church, and lunch is on me.
One visitor commented like this to our pastor; 'your choir dressed really good'!, meaning women in choir really covered themselves, not in robes but in their casual dresses that really covers!
However, not all sisters in congregation cover that good and, when seated wrong, right behind of a sister dressed to seemingly uncover, I have to close to my eyes in order not to be bothered but to focus on hearing the sermon, ended up dosing many times.
quote:
Maybe I'm just not that deep of a thinker when it comes to symbolism, which I think this thread is about. Being literally covered is something I've neevr really thought of and have heard Word of Faith teachers teach something similer to this. I'm pretty simple when it comes to my inderstanding of what Jesus did for us and that's fine with me. 
I never thought about this subject before until now when LL stirs this community with this user unfriendly subject.
I had to look up all the naked worlds and utilize the tool of speculation in order to take part.
Mine is simply a speculation and has no absolute value, but in doing so maybe I can run into the grain of truth the Lord who sees, hears and knows my motivation guides me to.
Literal cover belongs to this physical world, which, however, can mirror the spiritual world some degree so that we can see even a poor image that is reflection of the real deal in spiritual ream.
I as ESL person have to use Mr. Webster to get to the litteral meaning first and then to the figurative things! I have double load of works, one load more than you!
So, please bare with my naked and bare English that may offend you or misguide you, and cover me with understanding or kind correction so I can go on live without too much burden of shame or hardship.
PS, Remember that God came to Adam and Eve who covered themselves with not so good fig tree cover and gave them a better cover?
I am sure He will do the same thing when we tried to cover our topic with so-so good cover stories, that is, our poor reflection, imagination, or speculation, namely 'opinion'.
< Message edited by kingdust -- 8/10/2008 9:56:14 PM >
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/10/2008 9:46:57 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
You do just fine, kingdust! I appreciate your approach. In many ways, you aren't hindered by 'the teachings of man' because of the language barrier. I see it as a blessing (not a hindrance) and we benefit! BTW, would you mind sharing with us what your first language is? LL
My first language is Korean and I am a Korean-American.
The funny thing is that reading of the Bible in English helps me understand better and more than of Korean.
Guess what?!
When I read the Korean Bible, I do not need Mr. Korean Webster at all because there is no word that I don't know meaning of.
As a result, I do fast reading and close the Bible without much thinking.
But, when I read the English Bible, I can only go very slow in reading, because I have to look up word definitions a lot and analyze the sentence structure to get the proper word relation to each other to translate right.
You may not know, but the word order in English is quite different from the order in Korean.
In Korean writing, the main verb comes last in a sentence.
In today's sermon, I found another kind of covering by Jesus, which is not stated as covering but a covering act of Jesus was too obvious to be unnoticed; it is only not trumpeted out loud to proclaim His good deed.
It was about Nathanael who trashed the people from the home town of Jesus, obviously including whoever Philip had in mind and talked about.
I wonder why he went to see a person from the place he looked down as scum.
JN 1:46 "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked.
However, Jesus didn't not even mention the bad attitude toward certain people and the ill speech of Nathanael but praised him for his good character. JN 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."
He may not have nothing false but something bias, that we know black and white.
Jesus surely demonstrated love that keeps no record of wrongs, covering the wrong and uncovering only the good.
Who on earth loves to do that?!
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/11/2008 4:36:17 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
My first language is Korean and I am a Korean-American.
The funny thing is that reading of the Bible in English helps me understand better and more than of Korean.
Guess what?!
When I read the Korean Bible, I do not need Mr. Korean Webster at all because there is no word that I don't know meaning of.
As a result, I do fast reading and close the Bible without much thinking.
But, when I read the English Bible, I can only go very slow in reading, because I have to look up word definitions a lot and analyze the sentence structure to get the proper word relation to each other to translate right.
You may not know, but the word order in English is quite different from the order in Korean.
In Korean writing, the main verb comes last in a sentence.
I think this is why you come closer to the truth, kingdust. You aren't assuming you know what words mean or hearing what you've been taught. You are listening. . . I have heard many say today that we (in the U.S.) are an illiterate society and it really is true. People today don't read and most really can't. They don't know what words mean and don't go to a dictionary to find out.
When you read a book like John Adams and hear the thoughtfulness and read the writings of our forefathers/mothers, you really understand how illiterate we have become. I think they call it second hand illiteracy?
Anyway, that's why the Navigators have instituted a story telling ministry that goes into the prisons and shares Christ through stories. Most of the men cannot read the Bible on their own so they need a new way to share the gospel and biblical truth with a nonreading people. And now they (the Navigators) are realizing the need for this kind of storytelling teaching in the population at large.
So again I say you are really at a great advantage, kingdust. And I can tell by your thoughtful and insightful responses that you are coming to fuller and greater understanding. So bless you. LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/11/2008 4:56:40 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
"Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."
KD, My translation has Jesus saying, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" John 1:47
If you look up the word 'guile', I think it says even more than 'nothing false'. Guile is deceit, cunning, or duplicity (hypocrisy). So Jesus is saying that Nathanael had none of that---there was no deceit, cunning or duplicity in him.
That is what being truthful, honest is all about. Nathanael wasn't trying to put on a show, be the 'good' person or act like what we think a good Christian should act like. He was real. He was who he was. He was being his true self, honest. And Jesus commends him for his honesty.
This is really another aspect of Jesus that is rarely talked about. You saw it as His covering Nathanael, loving him and believing the best of him. But what I see it as is Jesus' love for our being truthful. I don't think there is anything Jesus loves more.
The pharisees wouldn't be truthful. Many church people today won't be truthful. They won't be truthful with themselves. They won't be truthful with Jesus. And they won't be truthful with others. And Jesus has no part with them. He can't.
Anyway, I don't see this as covering really but I do see it as learning what Jesus loves and wants to see in us---absolute and utter truthfulness, honesty. Without guile. That is a very high commendation coming from the King of the Universe.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/12/2008 9:17:51 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Anyway, I don't see this as covering really but I do see it as learning what Jesus loves and wants to see in us---absolute and utter truthfulness, honesty. Without guile. That is a very high commendation coming from the King of the Universe.
The covering obviously wasn't clearly stated but can still be detected if you remember what Nathaniel just said about the home town of Jesus a while ago and compare it to what Jesus said about him.
What I saw was that Nathaniel had the naked prejudice or stereo type racial discrimination (?) against a race (people) of certain location in his country, which came out first and fast, lacking cover of much of second thought or consideration that could cover a harmful naked thought which may be exposed to uncover only shame, embarrassment, regret, or such bad tastes.
You may not know, but my country, which is about half the size of Florida and has only one kind of race and language, has been suffering from a serious racial discrimination?!
You probably wonder 'what racism' can be there where there is only one race, Korean.
It is very strange but we have 'regional prejudice and discrimination' against people from different region, like South Eastern, South Western, or central, not to mention a lot of other kinds of such thing.
The only difference is the different dialogue, like Southern or New England dialogue.
Just because that, we treat others from just the other side of high mountain range as 'different race'.
When I moved to the capital city, which is Seoul, at a tender age of middle school boy from South-West region, much like Nazareth-born moved to Jerusalem, I intentionally erased the trace of southern accent in my speech in order not to be looked down or made fun of.
If making fun of is kid's stuff, no hiring of Nazareth-born in Korea by some business owners is a dirty old stuff.
Maybe that is why I was able to detect the naked prejudice present in the thought of Nathaniel and exposed without any cover whatsoever.
The same goes with the American racial prejudice, which is more reasonable and logical because it is black and white clear skin race case, like Jews against Samaritans, than the Korean case of the same skin color with different accent or dialogue.
Counter racism expressed in anger in respond to the racial prejudice treatment may be justified as 'indignation', but naked anger as 'raw feeling' is another form of nakedness which needs to be covered, either before or after it manifests, 'before' being a lot better.
Jesus overlooking the bad flesh remark from Nathaniel but seeing only the good side of him seems a good example for us to cover one another in love, to me.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/12/2008 11:17:09 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Jesus overlooking the bad flesh remark from Nathaniel but seeing only the good side of him seems a good example for us to cover one another in love, to me.
Kingdust,
I do understand what you are saying but you are making a HUGE assumption---and this is the assumption that is called judgment. You are juding Nathanael's heart attitude.
Can a person ask the question "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" without having a wrong heart attitude?????????
I say YES. (I know most people will disagree and most people would have a wrong heart attitude when asking this question. BUT I believe and know that this type of question can be spoken without judgment.)
And YES is what Jesus is saying as well. Nathanael was being perfectly honest, without guile, deceit. What he knew of Nazareth was that he certainly did not expect the Messiah to come from such a place. But is he saying Nazareth is bad? NO. The thought of 'bad'ness is in the ear and heart of the one listening. We judge others according to what is in OUR hearts and that is where the problem comes. So if you judge Nathanael according to YOUR heart and judgment is in YOUR heart, he is judged, thought to be bad and in need of covering.
Jesus didn't see it that way at all because He knows Nathanael's heart and Jesus does not hold judgment in His heart towards others. When Jesus hears Nathanael, He hears an honest person asking an honest question.
The prejudice/judgment is all a product of the one listening. . . And this takes us right back to the discussion of context.
This is a huge problem for people. We put on others motives/evil intentions, etc because that is in our heart. This is done mostly unintentionally. But once we have an intimate relationship with Jesus, He shows us what is in our heart and how we have this tendency to put our evil thoughts/intentions on others. This should not be. And He begins to show us and correct us over and over again until we STOP.
I have lived this and know it to be true---on both sides of the situation. I've done it and had others do it to me. It results in great misunderstandings and relationships being torn asunder. It is always a part of church divisions. And it grieves the heart of God.
Anyway, there's always more to discuss. Hope I'm not overwhelming you and Mr. Webster! LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/14/2008 10:02:11 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 332
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
The prejudice/judgment is all a product of the one listening. . . And this takes us right back to the discussion of context.
This is a huge problem for people. We put on others motives/evil intentions, etc because that is in our heart. This is done mostly unintentionally. But once we have an intimate relationship with Jesus, He shows us what is in our heart and how we have this tendency to put our evil thoughts/intentions on others. This should not be. And He begins to show us and correct us over and over again until we STOP.
I would rather say 'naturally' than unintentionally, because our natural reaction is of flesh which come out first in a split second sparing no time to 'premeditate'.
Natural and unintended but once out, it is out naked, vulnerable to be clothed any way subjectively by expert thought designers of all class and quality.
Only a few who are the matured or controlled by the Spirit could cloth what came naked good, fair or right.
quote:
I have lived this and know it to be true---on both sides of the situation. I've done it and had others do it to me. It results in great misunderstandings and relationships being torn asunder. It is always a part of church divisions. And it grieves the heart of God.
Anyway, there's always more to discuss. Hope I'm not overwhelming you and Mr. Webster! LL
'Cloth right what came out naked' or 'what clothed with fig tree rag' would be no doubt loving action because it is kind to cover the poor and naked to begin with.
When said figuratively, Mr. Webster becomes helpless, not by the overload but by 'the not-in-me load'- he ain't got no answer.
Not that I know how to cloth right, because all I have is the subjectively right covering tendency and skill.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/28/2008 7:46:22 AM
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Daughter2theKing
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Do you really think Ham would sexually assault his father, Noah, then go brag about it to his two brothers? I don't. The Law didn't come about until later, but one of the "thou shalt nots" is a thou shalt not uncover thy father's nakedness. Also, I've heard that since Noah was "fresh off the boat" he was unaware of the new phenomenon of rain coming from the heavens, and the results of that on crops. Before that, the water only came up from the ground. I heard that having water come from above and the different world it created, the grapes fermented more quickly than before... so Noah unknowingly got drunk. That's just what I heard, not necessarily believe.
The main theme of this is that Noah's son, Ham, dishonored him by looking at him and mocking him to his brothers. The other 2 brothers wouldn't dishonor their father by looking at him naked, but covered him up without doing so. These were blessed while the first was not.
The word "knew" in this passage was distinct and to the point. He didn't say He "knew" Ham. Noah said he "knew what his younger son had done to him". Apparently, he also "knew" what his other two sons did, as they were blessed for it.
J
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/28/2008 1:05:34 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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Daughter2theKing, The suggestion of there being a 'sexual' component to this was definitely a minority opinion and not one I think the Lord intended. So I'm in agreement with your thoughts. LL
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