RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (Full Version)

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Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/28/2008 1:53:59 PM)

Bringing understanding to scripture, seeking what the Lord is saying to us, is not adding to a passage. It is the illumination that He desires we have so that we can live it out in our lives.

Nakedness is our sin nature. Adam and Eve sought to cover themselves, knowing their nakedness. Before their sin, they were not aware of themselves. That 'self' awareness is a reflection or byproduct (?) of our sin.

Covering the nakedness of another is what love does. James 5:20 says "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." Those aren't my words. Those are God's words. So I think we need to listen, and try to understand what He is telling us through them.

And I Peter 4:8 says, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." So this 'covering' the nakedness of another is something greater. We are commanded to do it. We can't write it off or say it is not right. We have to instead come to a true understanding, a God understanding, of what this means and how to live it out. And I believe Noah's two sons showed us this in their actions toward their father. And Christ did this for us as well. Covering does not mean the nakedness, the sin, is still not present. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He covered us while we were still sinful. That is what Love does. It is this kindness that leads us to repentance.

More thoughts?



kingdust -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/28/2008 9:02:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
More thoughts?


I found another kind of cover up and nakedness; cover up by Boas and nakedness of Ruth.

Here is the reference; RU 3:9 "Who are you?" he asked.
"I am your servant Ruth," she said. "Spread the corner of your garment over me, since you are a kinsman-redeemer."

Boas covered a poor, hopeless gentile widow who was naked in a sense that she had no husband, no provider, no protector, no security, no esteem, no land,, no source of income, no education, no hope, no future,no children, no relative, no citizenship, and she was a woman, a weak vassal, a prey for hunter-man.

Boas could have used her for his own pleasure or covered her improper way but he didn't.
Instead, he really covered her nakedness and gave all the covers she needed.

What say?



stampinlady -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 10:31:18 AM)

quote:

It is the illumination that He desires we have so that we can live it out in our lives.


So how would you live this out in real life? I have some situations with family members that need "covering" and I just don't know how to do it. Is there a fine line between covering ones nakedness and enabling?



deliveredarling -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 12:10:08 PM)

quote:

Is there a fine line between covering ones nakedness and enabling?


I do believe it is a very fine line. Jesus wasn't an enabler nor did He allow sin to be hidden. In fact He didn't have to wait for anyone to tell Him about their sin. He either knew upon approach or they blurted it out to Him. He had a supernatural power upon the people He encountered, still does. We do not possess that same power. Maybe I'm not getting what LL is trying to say, but I certainly understand where you are coming from SL.

King made a point regarding protection. That still seems very different from covering to me. Was their a sin in the Boaz example? We can use one term and it completely changes the definition of another, so maybe I'm just lost here.[&o]



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 4:10:35 PM)

quote:

I found another kind of cover up and nakedness; cover up by Boas and nakedness of Ruth.

Here is the reference; RU 3:9 "Who are you?" he asked.
"I am your servant Ruth," she said. "Spread the corner of your garment over me, since you are a kinsman-redeemer."

Boas covered a poor, hopeless gentile widow who was naked in a sense that she had no husband, no provider, no protector, no security, no esteem, no land,, no source of income, no education, no hope, no future,no children, no relative, no citizenship, and she was a woman, a weak vassal, a prey for hunter-man.

Boas could have used her for his own pleasure or covered her improper way but he didn't.
Instead, he really covered her nakedness and gave all the covers she needed.

What say?


Beautiful example of covering another's need, kingdust! Yes, this is what Boaz did for Ruth and it is a picture of what the Lord has done for us.

I think we forget that the Lord's covering comes before we see our sin. He died for us while we were yet sinners.

Jesus did a similar thing with the adulterous woman. The men exposed her sin just as Ham exposed his father. Ham was cursed. And the men were sent away. It was Jesus' kindness that led to her conviction and turning from her sin, repentance.

Covering is what love does. Exposing is what fleshly man does. There is definitely something deeper here that we need to learn. And I do want to know His ways.

[:)] LL



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 4:21:11 PM)

quote:

So how would you live this out in real life? I have some situations with family members that need "covering" and I just don't know how to do it. Is there a fine line between covering ones nakedness and enabling?


This is exactly what I'm wanting to learn too, Deb. How do we live this out in our relationships?

I don't know if there is a fine line between covering and enabling. Peter says "love covers a multitude of sins." Is it living intentionally? knowing what things we can change or help someone with? and accepting those things we can't?

I'm thinking of my friend who has an alcoholic brother. He lost his wife because of his drinking. He's lost his license because of his problem. His life is miserable in many ways. And I truly believe he knows Jesus. But he is in bondage to alcohol and until he decides that he wants to be free and believes that Jesus CAN set him free, he will remain in the bondage he is in.

So my friend just loves him. She reminds him of Jesus' love for him. But she doesn't need to talk about alcohol to him. He knows. He's living in the mess he's made.

So is she living love to her brother? I think so. Is she enabling him? I don't think that's enabling. And is her love and prayer for her brother a covering of sorts? I hope so.

What do you think? Do you have an example we could 'talk through'?



buckifn -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 4:25:46 PM)

I have never found a scripture that says nakedness and sin are one and the same. If I am naked in the shower God still receives my prayers and praise if I am offering them to Him.

To me it sounds like some posts are connecting the natural form of being naked with the spiritual act of sinning and I don't think Scripture teaches they are one and the same. It does teach LOVE covers a multitude of sin, but it doesn't say anything about being naked in that verse.



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 5:47:37 PM)

quote:

I have never found a scripture that says nakedness and sin are one and the same. If I am naked in the shower God still receives my prayers and praise if I am offering them to Him.


After Adam and Eve's sin, they hid because of their nakedness. (Gen 3:10) God's response to their hiding is this, "And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Doesn't this appear to be God's associating nakedness with sin? (I am not associating literal nakedness with sin---but the awareness of self as in Adam and Eve's experience appears to be related.)



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/29/2008 6:08:39 PM)

quote:

I do believe it is a very fine line. Jesus wasn't an enabler nor did He allow sin to be hidden. In fact He didn't have to wait for anyone to tell Him about their sin. He either knew upon approach or they blurted it out to Him. He had a supernatural power upon the people He encountered, still does. We do not possess that same power. Maybe I'm not getting what LL is trying to say, but I certainly understand where you are coming from SL.

In many ways I think we should have the same effect on others that Jesus had. If His life is in us, it should be flowing out to others. It's a shekinah kind of thing. I know I've experienced it a few times but I'd like to say it's my always experience. But those are the times when people are aware of the reality of Jesus and confess things to you that they'd never told anyone else. And then we can minister to them in life giving ways.

King made a point regarding protection. That still seems very different from covering to me. Was their a sin in the Boaz example? We can use one term and it completely changes the definition of another, so maybe I'm just lost here.

Boaz' covering was providing for Ruth's need just as Christ's covering for us provided for our need. Were we sinners when He covered us? Absolutely. And that is why I think it is so important for us to understand what God is saying to us (and I mean me understanding, not just you or others). I think this covering the nakedness of others is a redemptive act that we are to live out in our relationships as well.

You're not lost, DD. . . just doing a bit of searching for truth. And that's where He wants us to be![:)] LL



stampinlady -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/30/2008 10:30:12 AM)

Hmmm, what if you're angry at someone? How does "covering" work? Do you tell them why you are angry and what if they don't agree with what you have told them?



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/30/2008 10:55:01 AM)

quote:

Hmmm, what if you're angry at someone? How does "covering" work? Do you tell them why you are angry and what if they don't agree with what you have told them?


I just read Proverbs 10:12, "Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all transgressions."

You need to respond in love. When angry, we need to take our anger to the Lord. Open the word, not looking for the answer to your specific problem, but to open your heart to His way and His will. Let Him speak peace to you. James tells us that the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. So we need to understand that our anger must be dealt with before we deal with another person.

I know this is easier said than done but shutting up is a basic first step. Getting yourself under control and allowing God to deal with you before you deal with someone else comes first.

Wait on Him and listen and let Him guide what you say or do. He often gives me insight into why the person has done or said what they've done. And that can change everything. . . and especially my response to them.

Love covering transgressions means seeing as God sees and dealing with others as He has dealt with us. In His anger, He could have snuffed us out. He didn't. He loved. He listens. He comes alongside to HELP us.

Does that help, Deb?



kingdust -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/31/2008 7:56:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
King made a point regarding protection. That still seems very different from covering to me. Was their a sin in the Boaz example? We can use one term and it completely changes the definition of another, so maybe I'm just lost here.[&o]


I just wanted to 'expose' another side of covering in order to be set free from having stuck on one sided 'cover' story, that is all.
Another word, something more to think or talk about it.

It is just a thought that came with no power to tremble the whole world or clothed with perfection.
In fact, it is a very naked thought, like a bare bone without skin, in need of a lot more to cover to make it look decent to be seen, nothing close to Elisha's bone but same as a dead bare bone in a valley even Ezekiel might not seen no hope of life in it, or as a bloody naked baby in need of coverings of all kinds.
Y'know, a naked baby needs more than the cover of naked flesh.

If my thought is like that, what about my actual life acted upon the naked poor thought of mine?
Simply saying, my life needs to be covered, covers after covers, day in day out.

Can a rich man with walk in closet full of coverings lack coverings and be called 'naked'?
Yes, only in the Bible,
`I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. [18] I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Speaking of uncovering, Jesus did covered a woman by uncovering?!
He said, 'stone her', in order to cover her.
I sure don't like to be in her shoe, but if a hard core legalist lies in wait on me, I'd be naked in public more than once.

Uncovering to cover in mind is really a covering.



stampinlady -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/31/2008 10:26:24 AM)

Would it be a good idea to study the word "cover?" I think these some confusion, at least on my part, in what "cover" means. I think someone mentioned that Jesus covered our sins, but didn't he take them away? OT sacrifices "covered" sins and that was what was so cool about the New Covenant. Am I making sense?



deliveredarling -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (7/31/2008 1:55:49 PM)

Here is cover from Strong's #H3680 (Hebrew)-kacah
1) to cover, conceal, hide

a) (Qal) conceal, covered (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be covered

c) (Piel)

1) to cover, clothe

2) to cover, conceal

3) to cover (for protection)

4) to cover over, spread over

5) to cover, overwhelm

d) (Pual)

1) to be covered

2) to be clothed

e) (Hithpael) to cover oneself, clothe oneself

For cover used in 1 Peter 4:8
Strong's #G2572-Greek- Kalypto

1) to hide, veil

a) to hinder the knowledge of a thing


I hope that helps.



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 5:06:06 AM)

quote:

Would it be a good idea to study the word "cover?" I think these some confusion, at least on my part, in what "cover" means. I think someone mentioned that Jesus covered our sins, but didn't he take them away? OT sacrifices "covered" sins and that was what was so cool about the New Covenant. Am I making sense?


Studying the word 'cover' might be helpful but a word apart from the context of Christ can mean anything---KWIM? I don't mean that to sound 'smart'. There is so much Bible knowledge and information that is available and used to prove this and that. But truth is spiritual and is revealed not attained as other knowledge is attained. Truth does not come through our natural senses such as our eyes, ears and mind. It is supernatural and spiritual and is only understood as we know Jesus. It is knowing Him, Who He is, His character and what He is about, that we can begin to understood what God is saying throughout all of scripture.

Now that is a huge thought. And I certainly am not saying that is where I am. But I do know that knowing Christ is the beginning of wisdom and He leads you into greater knowing and understanding of all of scripture.

So you can't look at 'covering' or what it means 'to cover' apart from Christ and knowing Him. I see a basic definition of 'covering' as providing for the need of another. The sacrifices for sin did that in the OT. Jesus did that fully in the NT. It is what Noah's sons did for him and Boaz did for Ruth. And it is what we are called to do through our loving relationship with our brothers and sisters.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 10:06:18 AM)

If Jesus covered our sins fully, then why do we need to cover other's sins?

This is starting to sound like the "bear each other's burdens" thread.



stampinlady -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 10:22:24 AM)

quote:

Jesus did that fully in the NT.


But Jesus didn't "cover" our sins. He took away our sins. Maybe I'm being too picky, but Jesus never covered anyone or anything, at least I don't see it in scripture.

I find word studies very helpful because many times the Greek and Hebrew are very different from English and it help me to undertand what was being said. Simply relying on our own understanding can be very dangerous.



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 12:32:40 PM)

quote:

If Jesus covered our sins fully, then why do we need to cover other's sins?

This is starting to sound like the "bear each other's burdens" thread.


Good question, Tricia. The answer is because we are commanded to. James 5:19-20 says, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." And I Peter 4:8 tells us, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."

Since we are commanded to do this, I think we need to understand what our part in this is. The Lord does not tell us to do things that are unnecessary.

And bearing each others' burdens is similar---yet look at how much understanding is lacking. It seems to be a theme, something very important to God, and something we in the body are supposed to be doing---yet we don't get it. So we need to discover what we haven't yet learned about these things. . .

And as URForgiven said in another post, (and this is my paraphrase) perhaps the biggest burden of all is our not understanding and doing as we are commanded re: bearing other's burdens and covering the sins of others, and our need for repentance.

When He comes, I want to be found faithful and I want to help my brothers and sisters walk faithfully as well. We need each other.



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 12:53:30 PM)

quote:

But Jesus didn't "cover" our sins. He took away our sins. Maybe I'm being too picky, but Jesus never covered anyone or anything, at least I don't see it in scripture.

I find word studies very helpful because many times the Greek and Hebrew are very different from English and it help me to undertand what was being said. Simply relying on our own understanding can be very dangerous.


How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Ps 32:1 This is what Jesus has done for us. When we say 'under the blood', we are referring to His covering our sin.

I don't disagree with you regarding word studies. One of our biggest problems in today's culture is our lack of understanding our own language! We are no longer people who read and we lack understanding because words are foreign to us.

And relying on our own understanding is indeed dangerous. That is not at all what I am implying or what I said. God, however, gives spiritual understanding that is apart from the natural learning process. I cannot know God by reading the Bible. I can know about God by reading the Bible. All the texts and commentaries in the world will not bring me to that place of knowing Him. Only He can do that. It is spiritual. It is being illumined by His Spirit.

When I was in Bible Study Fellowship many years ago, one of the best things they taught me was to put my study Bible away. I did. They wanted the Holy Spirit to be our guide into the truth, not man's thoughts. So I put my study Bible away. I let the Holy Spirit teach me. And He does.

That is not to say that I don't have commentaries and study helps. I do. And I occasionally refer to them. But they are not my primary source. He is. He is the Truth and the One Who knows. So I listen to Him, first and foremost.

And I talk about Him and what He is teaching me with others who believe. That sharing is part of what keeps me from going down a path of error or wrong understanding.

So I appreciate your concern and I share it. That's why I desire to share with others as well. Blessings![:)]



ta_mosquito -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 1:05:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

Good question, Tricia. The answer is because we are commanded to. James 5:19-20 says, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." And I Peter 4:8 tells us, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."


In these passages, the command is NOT to cover the sins. That's the RESULT of turning a sinner from the error of his way and of keeping fervent love for one another.

In the James passage you quoted, another result is that we will save the sinner's soul from death. If "cover sins" is a command, then by the same passage, "save his soul from death" is a command as well. But we are unable to save any man's soul from death - that's purely God's job since HE is the judge and final sacrifice, not us.

I don't think there's a passage that says, "Cover one another's sins" as an action vs. a result. It's similar to how we plant and water, but GOD gives the increase. It's the Father's will that we bear much fruit, but we don't actively do that; we do that by abiding in the Vine (John 15) - bearing fruit is the result, not the action we must take.

So could "covering each other's sins" be the same thing - a result of an action, but not the action itself?



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 1:36:20 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

Good question, Tricia. The answer is because we are commanded to. James 5:19-20 says, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." And I Peter 4:8 tells us, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."

In these passages, the command is NOT to cover the sins. That's the RESULT of turning a sinner from the error of his way and of keeping fervent love for one another.

Another good point. Proverbs 10:12 says, "Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all transgressions", again the byproduct of love. But if this seems to consistently be the byproduct of our love for others and we are commanded to love, be fervent in our love for them, isn't the indirect command then to cover their sins. . . that their sins need a covering and our love for them can provide that?

In the James passage you quoted, another result is that we will save the sinner's soul from death. If "cover sins" is a command, then by the same passage, "save his soul from death" is a command as well. But we are unable to save any man's soul from death - that's purely God's job since HE is the judge and final sacrifice, not us.

We can't discount what the text says and it clearly does say that our action of turning a sinner back will save his soul from death. Sin is death so when a brother or sister is in sin, that is death. We are not talking about eternal death here I don't believe. But walking in sin of any kind is walking in death of sorts. So we turn them to save them from walking in ways of death, darkness. Make sense?

I don't think there's a passage that says, "Cover one another's sins" as an action vs. a result. It's similar to how we plant and water, but GOD gives the increase. It's the Father's will that we bear much fruit, but we don't actively do that; we do that by abiding in the Vine (John 15) - bearing fruit is the result, not the action we must take.

So could "covering each other's sins" be the same thing - a result of an action, but not the action itself?

What say you now?



stampinlady -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 1:41:56 PM)

quote:

How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Ps 32:1 This is what Jesus has done for us. When we say 'under the blood', we are referring to His covering our sin.


But this is an OT scripture and sins were "covered" back then on the alter. A shadow of things to come.(Heb.)



pstrdebi -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 6:32:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

quote:

Jesus did that fully in the NT.


But Jesus didn't "cover" our sins. He took away our sins. Maybe I'm being too picky, but Jesus never covered anyone or anything, at least I don't see it in scripture.

I find word studies very helpful because many times the Greek and Hebrew are very different from English and it help me to undertand what was being said. Simply relying on our own understanding can be very dangerous.


Agree. Back in the OT day... a sacrafice was used to atone for, or "cover" our sin. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice who came to take away our sins once and for all. We no longer had to take a sacrifice to the priest.



pstrdebi -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 7:03:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

Yesterday a group of women I meet with were discussing Jesus' commands in John 15 to love one another. We were looking at verses 12-17 and they begin and end with that command.

So the question 'what love does' was being discussed. And the topic of Noah came up. In Genesis 9, Noah drank wine, became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham sees his father and goes out and tells his brothers. The other brothers take a garment, walk backwards into the tent so they will not see their father's nakedness, and cover him.

Talk with me about how we live this out with our friends and family. What has the Lord taught you in this regard? I'm listening.[:)]


Well, I've read all 72 (more or less) posts... so now, I'll add my 2 cents worth.

I have studied many translations and word studies. I have not found anything that points to "rape." Ham didn't accidentally see his father, he purposefully looked upon him. Noah's being naked was not the sin... the sin was Ham dis-honoring his father. If you remember... back in OT times... a child could be stoned to death for dis-honoring his parents. This was a big thing that Ham did... he dis-honored Noah greatly. He was lucky to only get cursed!

This, in contrast to the brother's total honor and respect of their father by walking backwards to cover him, and not look upon him.

Many have tried to make a big deal out of Noah drinking a bit too much... but he did not do anything wrong in his drunkenness. He was in the privacy of his own home (or tent as you would have it). It did not lead to anything... yet many have stated that this is Noah's "one mar on his reputation." Bologna!

So... what's the moral of the story? Don't look at your parents when their naked... it's rude and you'll have nightmares!



Liveloved -> RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another (8/1/2008 7:14:15 PM)

quote:

Agree. Back in the OT day... a sacrafice was used to atone for, or "cover" our sin. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice who came to take away our sins once and for all. We no longer had to take a sacrifice to the priest.


I don't disagree that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. However, I don't think that negates the covering of sin in the NT. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing/purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:13-14 The sprinkling of the blood in the OT covered their sins and the sprinkling of the blood in the NT covers our sins. True, it is a how much more cleansing but the OT sacrifice was a picture of what Christ's blood would do for us.

Anyway, I don't think the covering of sin in the OT meant hiding or deceiving. It meant a sanctifying cleansing. But it had to be done over and over and over again. It was insufficient.

So I don't see a conflict here.



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