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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 2:12:00 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
his metabolism simply demands routine feeding round the clock rather than an adult eating schedule.
Indeed, when you take into account the fact that they are sleeping 10 to 12 hours at night, and the fact that their tummies are so tiny, the only way to accomplish this would be overfeeding the child to an unhealthy extent during the day.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 2:38:27 PM
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Mrs.X
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
but it's easier to breastfeed than it is to get out of bed and make a sandwich, and at that age, nothing they eat is as complete as breastmilk anyway.
I found that to be a pain in the butt too, so I only gave him some cheese or yogurt before his bedtime, but not in the middle of the night. He still full-on nursed a couple times in the early morning, but about 3 times before that something woke him up, and he just needed my breast for a few seconds to get him back to sleep. It was much easier than him full-on nursing 5 times in the middle of the night because he was hungry. And, there was no crying involved, which everyone could appreciate.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 2:59:51 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
A child that old does not need to be nursing at night
I agree
quote:
Clearly he DOES need to eat at night, or he would not be waking up and eating.
So much to say - so little time. I will not speak in definites because it is not my child. But there is a HIGH probability that the toddler is waking up out of habit - not because he is hungry. A toddler at this age does not need to eat at night. That's just an extra bonus because Mommy makes milk. This goes well into the sleep training thread as well.
quote:
I guess I don't think God would have made babies that needed to suck even when they weren't hungry, and made breasts that could be sucked on, if that isn't how it's supposed to be.
I'm sorry, I don't agree. Babies suck because it is calming to them. Every time a baby cries, it doesn't mean it is hungry, and every time they want to suck it isn't because they need food.
That's all that I have time for now.
< Message edited by macokjc -- 7/18/2008 4:05:52 PM >
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:04:06 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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Babies don't eat unless they are hungry. His mother said he nurses during the day without really eating (presumably because he is eating table foods), but at night he is REALLY EATING--that means he is hungry. It isn't habit, they can't be any happier waking up than we are! And for pete's sake, sometimes even grown-ups wake up hungry in the middle of the night-age has little to do with it, it happens, and there is nothing wrong with it. Saying he doesn't ever need to eat at night because he has passed some magical age is nonsense.
And if you read what you quoted, you would see that I said babies were made to suck even when they are not hungry, and the result of that is incrased milk production, and if you pay attention, you can see the cause and effect and you will be happier when the growth spurt comes.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:15:04 PM
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Mrs.X
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I agree that even into toddlerhood that some of them need to eat in the night hours. Mine is living proof. But, by offering a filling healthy snack before bed, it may be able hold the child off for a while, long enough to get a good block of sleep before he is hungry again.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:23:41 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I agree, Christina.
I know Brandon was a full year older than the child in question when he had to have a nightly snack. He was genuinely hungry...trust me, nothing wakes that child that isn't urgent! LOL Their tummies are only the size of their fists! That's not enough food to go 10 or 12 hours, especially when a child is growing.
And, correct me if I am wrong, but the OP's son has had some health problems that might actually cause some delays. Going through medical treatments and so on can do that. He might need to be extra-attached right now.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:28:45 PM
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IonMoon
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What I would do if it were me... is feed him more through the day (not forcing, but oferring more of his favorite foods), offer a snack before bed, and when he wakes up, delay the feeding. I would start by waiting just a very short time (If he typically gets upset if it takes more than 30 seconds, I'd have him wait 20 seconds), gradually increasing the amount of time.
I would not personally do anything that could alter his sleep cycle, like getting him out of bed for a snack, etc.
I don't think it is ever safe to feed a baby PB off a spoon. It should always be spread. In fact, in my first aid safety classes, we were told for children & elderly there should be something on both sides of the PB- like bread,cracker, or jelly, etc. PB that isn't covered with something else can stick to the throat making it almost impossible to dislodge if the child were to choke. It is one of the top choking hazards. And as someone who is allergic, I strongly recommend waiting until the recommended age to introduce it.
Tara P
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:30:51 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
quote:
A child that old does not need to be nursing at night
Clearly he DOES need to eat at night, or he would not be waking up and eating.
So much to say - so little time. I will not speak in definites because it is not my child. But there is a HIGH probability that the toddler is waking up out of habit - not because he is hungry. A toddler at this age does not need to eat at night. That's just an extra bonus because Mommy makes milk. This goes well into the sleep training thread as well.
quote:
I guess I don't think God would have made babies that needed to suck even when they weren't hungry, and made breasts that could be sucked on, if that isn't how it's supposed to be.
I'm sorry, I don't agree. Babies suck because it is calming to them. Every time a baby cries, it doesn't mean it is hungry, and every time they want to suck it isn't because they need food.
That's all that I have time for now.
Thank you for your post.
I agree with this. There's a very good chance that at this age, he's simply waking and nursing out of habit, not out of a dire need.
No one is suggesting starving the child, or going cold turkey on him. But he likes Mommy's breasts, he's awake anyways... A good snack before bedtime could help ensure that he wakes less or is less hungry. Gradual and gentle training could teach him to eat more during the day and less at night, and to accept other methods of comfort when he does wake.
It's almost never a "let him scream in hunger for hours" or "mommy doesn't sleep more then 3 hours because a walking, talking toddler needs to eat 3 or more times a night" situation. I think there's room for a middle ground and gentle sleep training so that he can sleep more solidly at night.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:33:40 PM
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Sideways
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ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Their tummies are only the size of their fists! That's not enough food to go 10 or 12 hours, especially when a child is growing.
LOL, maybe for your boy, but that's not an absolute. My boy is 15 months, growing like crazy, and can easily go 10 to 12 hours without eating. He's usually not terribly hungry when he wakes up, either.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:35:06 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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But from what the OP has said, HER child IS hungry...and I am sorry, but you can't 'teach' a child to go hungry at night...basically you are starving them, whether you think it's gentle or not. What you have taught them is that their needs only matter from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:38:50 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I might agree with you if he were comfort-sucking, but he is not--he is eating, eating quickly, and popping off the breast when his tummy is full and then going back to sleep.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:39:19 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
But from what the OP has said, HER child IS hungry...and I am sorry, but you can't 'teach' a child to go hungry at night...basically you are starving them, whether you think it's gentle or not. What you have taught them is that their needs only matter from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m.
Since you insist on seeing this as a black and while situation with no room for discussion, I am bowing out.
No one has said to ignore the child during the night; we are simply suggesting a different course then what she is on now. But you insist on believing that we want to starve the child all night and revel in their screaming just to "exert control". Obviously, you don't want to listen to anyone but yourself.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:43:01 PM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
It's almost never a "let him scream in hunger for hours" or "mommy doesn't sleep more then 3 hours because a walking, talking toddler needs to eat 3 or more times a night" situation. I think there's room for a middle ground and gentle sleep training so that he can sleep more solidly at night.
I agree.
I think he may be hungry (his name is Noah, after all...and I have one of those...he's a bottomless pit  ), BUT I don't think he needs to eat every two hours all night long.
What it really comes down to is...Annie, how do you feel about it? Are you okay with him nursing like this, knowing that it is likely a growth spurt and will not last forever? Or would you like ideas on how to get him to sleep longer, with gentleness and concern for his needs?
Different people need different things at different times in their lives. I think it is certainly okay for a mom of a 16 month old to say she needs to sleep through the night, or at least only be up once instead of multiple times. It's also okay for a mom to say this is a short time in life and she's willing to sacrifice her sleep for her child. It's not okay, IMO, for someone else to say it's right or wrong either way in this case.
Annie, I just had a thought...you say he's been sleeping with you since you moved. It is possible he will sleep better in his own bed at this point. Maybe something in your own sleep cycles are waking him? It might be worth a try, if you want to, to put him in his own bed and see if that improves things a little. Yes, you'll have to get up with him when he does get up, but you may find him waking less anyway so you wouldn't lose as much sleep.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 3:55:20 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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It isn't all night long, Donna. He's sleeping like 6 hours before the first wake-up.
Annie, I did know one baby whose mom only fed him on one side at a time, and he increased his feedings and decreased the time between them until he had her where he needed her--which was feeding both sides at every feeding. The way he's feeding in the early mornings and getting closer and closer reminds me of that. And the extra sucking in the daytime, well, that may be to increase your supply since he's so darn hungry.
What I might try first, (well, after the bedtime snack) is to, since you are already awake, and you said he eats and then pops off the breast, keep him awake or wake him (tickle feet, change diaper, whatever), and feed off the other side. Oh, and is he getting enough fat during the day, or is he mostly eating carbs and some protein? Because that might do it, too.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 4:37:46 PM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
It isn't all night long, Donna. He's sleeping like 6 hours before the first wake-up.
quote:
Since we moved to a new house when he was 8 months old, he has slept with us. He nurses at night at 2am, 4am, and after 4am it is about every hour until 7:30 or 8am. Lately, it has made me feel run down during the day... (at least I think this is what is causing it). I use to be able to sleep while nursing, but now I can't.
I don't see where Annie says when he goes down for the night, but likely she is laying down with him if he is sleeping with her, so he is probably not going down at 8 pm. It is probably not 6 hours before the first wake up. (Can you clarify for us, Annie?)
If mom is run down and wanting to change things, if possible...I don't see that as a bad thing at all. At this age, gentle sleep training is not unreasonable or abusive.
If my 3 year old woke up at 2 am and wanted a sandwich, I would tell her to go back to sleep and we would eat in the morning. I realize it is different for a baby, even a 16 month old, but at some point, we do teach our kids that they don't NEED to eat round the clock. BTW, my 3 year old does always, every single night have a high-protein snack right before bed. If I forget, she demands it.
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For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 4:48:02 PM
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macokjc
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I believe in sleep training, I also believe in giving a child love and comfort. I don't believe in letting them scream for hours, but he's probably not as hungry as you think. It's called training a child, not torture.
I love that comment. I also take issue w/ the previous comment that implied that doctors who haven't nursed have no idea of what a baby needs. I have several "scheduling" conversations w/ different doctors: family doctors, pediatricians, NICU doctors; both male AND female. This is simple science. What a baby - in fact this is really a toddler - is capable of is well documented and well-studied. I know with each child it got harder to keep them on a schedule, because I was tired. Many times I thought "It would just be easier to give in." It would be easier, but only in the short run. I would rather have a month or two of serious training instead two years of middle of the night feedings. And, as I said before, it is completely the mom's decision. For me - I value and need my sleep. I don't like to co-sleep, it is not healthy for me or my children. I only got involved in this conversation because I wanted this dear mom to know that sleeping through the night is possible.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 5:43:49 PM
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Homegrownkids
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My goodness, a lot of chatting about this while I was away. Some of the points made were very helpful, thank you! Some made me chuckle... especially this one.....
quote:
I believe this child is actually hungry where I guess many of you think he's just manipulating his mother because he likes boobs.
He is a male ya'know....lol Sometimes I wonder!
Well... I usually nurse Noah to sleep in a recliner around 9:30pm. (give or take, but that is the average). If I am lucky, he ends up in his crib. But, sometimes he wakes up as soon as I put him down and he ends up with me right away. Either way, he wakes up around 2am, give or take 30 mintutes... and the routine goes from there.
Lately, probably the last couple weeks. His "canine" teeth have been coming in... all 4. (I'm not sure what those teeth are called). He has been nearly refusing to eat breakfast and lunch and has had very little snacks during the day also. Sucking for comfort has been what he wants during this time. SO, I am hoping this is all just a stage, but it seems like a very long one. I know the day time stuff is a stage... the night time stuff has been what seems like an eternity. Yes, he does have medical issues and he had been sleeping pretty good through the night... maybe not waking until 3:30 or 4am until around April when I was back at "living" in a motel for a week to visit my grandma and then a week later he had eye surgery and those things really messed him up and he's been waking up often ever since.
I do enjoy nursing, he's probably going to be our last baby and he is the sweetest one that is for sure!! He charms me into nursing him:) So, maybe he does know how to be manipulative. (I dont' think so though). My goal is just to get more sleep. If he still wants to eat at night, that is fine. Just not like a newborn!! I will definately try to feed him a snack closer to bed time though!
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 5:46:09 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
He has been nearly refusing to eat breakfast and lunch and has had very little snacks during the day also
So he isn't getting enough to eat and really IS hungry! I am sorry for you both!
Does he eat bananas? You may try freezing one--sometimes they like to chew on those.
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RE: Nursing a 16 month old at night - 7/18/2008 5:54:20 PM
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Kath
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quote:
Since we moved to a new house when he was 8 months old, he has slept with us. He nurses at night at 2am, 4am, and after 4am it is about every hour until 7:30 or 8am.
quote:
Clearly he DOES need to eat at night, or he would not be waking up and eating.
There is nothing clear about it. To nurse this much is just unreasonable. Annie can train him to go longer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
his metabolism simply demands routine feeding round the clock rather than an adult eating schedule.
Indeed, when you take into account the fact that they are sleeping 10 to 12 hours at night, and the fact that their tummies are so tiny, the only way to accomplish this would be overfeeding the child to an unhealthy extent during the day. quote:
Their tummies are only the size of their fists! That's not enough food to go 10 or 12 hours, especially when a child is growing.
I don't know Annie but I don't see anywhere in this thread where she says he is going 10-12 hours. He surely could go 7 hours or more without nursing. (eta: as I wrote this Annie said he only goes 4.5 or so hours before the first wake up)
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It isn't all night long, Donna. He's sleeping like 6 hours before the first wake-up. Perhaps you read that somewhere else, because I don't see that here in this thread. Are you assuming how long he is sleeping?
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ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
I believe this child is actually hungry where I guess many of you think he's just manipulating his mother because he likes boobs. 
quote:
But from what the OP has said, HER child IS hungry..
Not necessarily. He could be using her for comfort.
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ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
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However, it does sound like he enjoys using you as a pacifier.
I always figured that if a baby wanted comfort, it was because he needed it.
There are other ways to comfort a child other than sticking a nipple in his mouth. Surely you do not mean for a child to learn that food=comfort.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
I might agree with you if he were comfort-sucking, but he is not--he is eating, eating quickly, and popping off the breast when his tummy is full and then going back to sleep.
If he is waking every hour he is not getting "full".
No toddler needs to nurse that much at night. He can learn to eat during the day. A snack before bed and then sleep.
quote:
I don't know if I could handle stopping cold turkey. But, if that is what is suggested, I suppose I could try it. He cries so hard, as if he's been abandoned and then his little diaphram "hick ups" forever!
Annie, I do think he could be using you for comfort. You admit you see it during the day. I imagine the move was unsettling for him. I would never suggest you go cold turkey but if it hasn't been very much time since the last feeding I'd try to comfort him by either offering water and/or patting him on the back and telling him it's ok, go back to sleep. I would eliminate one of those 3 hourly feeding immediately. He has gotten use to you feeding him.
I nursed on demand too, but it was demand (necessary for growth), not command like it seems your little guy is doing.
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Kids that age are smart and perceptive and learning all sort of thing, but...they don't have a good concept of time and of consequences long (several hours) into the future. I think they can figure out something like "Hmmmm, if I stick a fork in my brother, mom pops my bottom, every time. Better not do that any more" But how do they connect eating a big lunch and lots of snacks during the day to not waking up hungry in the middle of the night? 
