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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 4:19:48 PM
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hellohellohi
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abraxas,
I agree that we can regress to certain criteria which aren't choices, such as hunger, but that wasn't what I was talking about. It MIGHT be the case that all choices (free will is an illusion) are based on necessity of a sort, or physical drives, but the regression shows that we can always ask further questions. I wasn't suggesting an end. Something that would go like this:
1) I'm going to the store to buy eggplant.
2) O RLY, why?
3) I like eggplant.
4) Great, why?
5) I don't have any in my fridge.
6) Why do you like eggplant?
7) It tastes good.
8) Why does it taste good. Thing's nasty to me. I won't eat no nightshade.
9) Oh. You are entitled to your tastes and opinions.
10) And I am entitled to yours. Why do like the taste of eggplant?
11) This is annoying.
12) No srsly.
13) It's all, like, salty, I guess.
14) Aren't you tasting the salt instead of the eggplant?
15) It's all ... eggy. Just kidding. Well, it tastes good with oyster sauce.
16) Um.
17) I like the consistency.
18) K, I'm bored. Why do eat instead of committing suicide?
19) Cuz I love to eat.
20) What do you love about it?
21) It's awesome.
22) What is love?
23) Y'know when you rly rly like something.
24) Oh. How about when I really really like to ask incessant questions?
25) That could be your passion.
26) Whose passion? Why is it mine? Why do I have to be driven and then possess my drive?
27) Uh, I guess I see. You mean, you're passion possesses you?
28) Yeah, is that love?
29) Yeah, I guess so.
30) So are you possessed by eggplant? Are you an eggplant wizard? "I am the walrus, I am the eggplant"?
31) Hmm, deep.
32) Are you infected by the eggplant daimon? Does it haunt you to go the store?
33) Strange to say, a little at the moment. The great purple one.
34) Why not rebel against that petty little guy and get some frosted mini-wheats and eat the whole box in one sitting?
35) Cool.
36) What were we talking about?
Anyway. Basically, yeah, if you are going to the store: "Why do you let hunger dictate the terms of your life like that? Why not go rent a movie and go to bed without any dinner?"
I guess your point is that we can sometimes come across something that isn't a matter of choice.
But, unfortunately or fortunately, trivially or profoundly, life is a matter of choice. The whole dang thing.
Let's drop my analogies if you will -- I hate analogies. But I do like imagery -- catch-22.
Existential malaise? Is existentialism the malaise or the breaking of the malaise -- the taking of action, if only ironically? I thought it was the latter.
For some, existentialism = Christianity, anyway, I would guess.
Hmm, otherwise, tho, yes, it is fair to ask, Who is at the door, Jesus or an impostor!! I loved the idea of a false courtyard thing being behind the door rather than shelter. Exactly what I am talking about.
Also, yes, is sin clear and present? Is there in fact a storm? I don't know -- are you wet? My point is that we can question anything. It seems fair to question such a thing that we cannot see, hear, taste, or touch (unlike a storm), like love or sin, but, take love: Questioning it trivially destroys it! So how can it be investigated earnestly through questions? Observe:
1) Why do you love me?
2) Great question! I have the precise answer: For no reason.
3) *sob* But! ... That means you can't think anything good about me!
4) On the contrary, I can, but even these diminish when I consider that I love you not because of these things -- such only make me doubt the sincerity of my love for a moment, as if I stand to gain from my devotion to you! -- or even despite the bad, but because I recoil from imagining a world in which you didn't exist.
Hmm, I am interested in what you are saying about it "wasn't truly me." I don't know. What is untrue about the untrue parts? :) This is very interesting! I don't exactly know where the discussion will go.
Does it seem like you are interior to yourself and that somehow the true you is contingent on yourself letting you out!
There is a song about this: "I got my house surrounded/I know I'm in there/ Come out with both my hands up/ And don't make me come in and get me! Don't make me come in and get me." :)
How can you make or allow the true you to come out? How can you make the interior exterior?
Are you in the process right now?
Does it involve asking honest and earnest questions of the world? :)
Does it involve SPEAKING? Does it involve communicating with your fellow human, your neighbor? Inquiring as to what they believe and why?
yay
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 4:50:10 PM
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hellohellohi
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Another interesting thing to consider:
When you found "it wasn't me," perhaps you had noticed it was another entity or semblace or simulation of one crying out to a deity amidst your anxiety?
Perhaps it was actually the Holy Spirit. :) (the Advocate)
Perhaps you will find out what I believe: i lost faith in myself, even though I still have faith in something vital, which seems more vital or NECESSARY than the various criteria I can think of to REPRESENT myself: God. Perhaps God presents us to ourselves, er -- perhaps it us that supplies the redundancy of "represention."
Have you ever wondered why we represent ourselves to ourselves? Why be so redundant! Isn't this what one is doing when one compares "who one is" to "what one is not?" Why is the comparison necessary? Why isn't everything interior us, and everything exterior "them?" :)
Does God perhaps present us to us (perfect freedoms -- perfect agents of nonexistence!) and we have the strange ability to refuse and to confuse the seemingly simple situation of whether or not we are ourselves?
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/31/2008 12:51:33 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I chose to believe 53 years ago. I chose to believe because I chose to do so.
A faith that lasts that long must be a good one, I'm happy for you! But rcjames, you must know that "I chose to believe because I chose to do so" doesn't really explain anything. I'm sure it was much less arbitrary than that. So at one point you had no belief on the subject, and then, for no apparent reason, you suddenly said, "I will believe"?
Why Christianity and not Mormonism, or the JWs? Back when you made that choice, would you say it could have gone any way?
Sorry to throw all the questions at you, those are the last ones!
quote:
Now I firmly believe that at what ever juncture in my life that I so choose I can deny my faith and reject Christ. I just have not done so, and firmly hope that I never do.
I think it would be hard to deny something if I truly believe it, but maybe I'm missing something.
eta: hit ok too soon, sorry.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 2:20:08 AM
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abraxas
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Hi hhh, I loved your dialogue! More! Have you read Tom Stoppard's "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead"? Also a great movie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
I guess your point is that we can sometimes come across something that isn't a matter of choice.
But, unfortunately or fortunately, trivially or profoundly, life is a matter of choice. The whole dang thing.
I mostly agree, but as I am persuaded by the compatibilist arguments I would only point out that there are also matters in our own identity that are beyond our control. Discovering and understanding them could only improve our ability to choose. But yes, self-realization comes down to choice.
I have to be honest I'm not even certain that life isn't actually wholly deterministic, like our attempts at regresses might imply. My thinking is, I willfully operate on the assumption that we do have some level of freedom. If I'm wrong, then I suppose it was just in my cards to assume so. If I'm right, I think I'll come out better off than if I assumed life was wholly deterministic!
quote:
Existential malaise? Is existentialism the malaise or the breaking of the malaise -- the taking of action, if only ironically? I thought it was the latter.
Yes, I can see it being the latter. However by 'existential' I didn't mean to refer to the -ism. iow, 'existential malaise' is something that has hounded humans long before the -ism. But now that you mention it that's what I dislike about Camus--he seems to just revel in how action is and can only be ironic. I'm perfectly comfortable noting something "transcendent" in the works.
quote:
For some, existentialism = Christianity, anyway, I would guess.
Yes, a close friend of mine considers himself both. His view, as I recall, is that by being as true to himself as he can--shaping his own identity in that way--he will approach the essence that preceeded his existence.
quote:
It seems fair to question such a thing that we cannot see, hear, taste, or touch (unlike a storm), like love or sin, but, take love: Questioning it trivially destroys it! So how can it be investigated earnestly through questions? Observe:
1) Why do you love me?
2) Great question! I have the precise answer: For no reason.
3) *sob* But! ... That means you can't think anything good about me!
4) On the contrary, I can, but even these diminish when I consider that I love you not because of these things -- such only make me doubt the sincerity of my love for a moment, as if I stand to gain from my devotion to you! -- or even despite the bad, but because I recoil from imagining a world in which you didn't exist.
Very true! Love, and even altruism can be paradoxically egocentric. I recall reading somewhere this being called "thinking one thought to many." You're right, reductionism does some things no service.
quote:
Hmm, I am interested in what you are saying about it "wasn't truly me." I don't know. What is untrue about the untrue parts? :) This is very interesting! I don't exactly know where the discussion will go.
I suppose it goes back to your early ideas about "living a lie". To me this doesn't point to the actual "truthfulness", but simply to what I truly believed. If a person says something that is true, but they don't really believe it, are they lying? I think so. If a person says something that isn't true, but they believe it is, are they lying? I don't think so. I hope that helps.
quote:
Does it seem like you are interior to yourself and that somehow the true you is contingent on yourself letting you out!
There is a song about this: "I got my house surrounded/I know I'm in there/ Come out with both my hands up/ And don't make me come in and get me! Don't make me come in and get me." :)
How can you make or allow the true you to come out? How can you make the interior exterior?
Are you in the process right now?
I like those lyrics, very clever! Do you who wrote them?
And yes, I believe I am in that process! (behold, a statement of faith!)
quote:
Does it involve asking honest and earnest questions of the world? :)
Does it involve SPEAKING? Does it involve communicating with your fellow human, your neighbor? Inquiring as to what they believe and why?
It does, but if there is no action to balance it I don't think it will serve its purpose. With that said I have to get off this computer and out in the real world! I'm whittling my time on this board down, but if this discussion insists on sticking around I will make the time for it. I've enjoyed the discussion.
take care,
abraxas
yay
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 2:29:04 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Another interesting thing to consider:
When you found "it wasn't me," perhaps you had noticed it was another entity or semblace or simulation of one crying out to a deity amidst your anxiety?
I wouldn't say so. It was more like an approach that others swore by, like crystal therapy or dianetics, that didn't align with how I saw things.
quote:
Perhaps it was actually the Holy Spirit. :) (the Advocate)
If the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, longsuffering, etc., then I would say it's more likely that he's still around. (As an agnostic I have to allow for that possibilty, who knows for sure?)
Have a great weekend,
abraxas
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 11:24:14 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
But yes, self-realization comes down to choice.
I meant suicide is always an option. I will have to think about the others things you were saying. Never read R & G are dead, but Tom Stoppard is pretty funny, as far as I recall. Read Arcadia or whatever a long time ago.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 11:32:00 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
But now that you mention it that's what I dislike about Camus--he seems to just revel in how action is and can only be ironic.
I'm a big fan of Camus! I don't get that from him, though. Can you explain your reading? :) I can see the irony in The Fall, the comic-tragedy in "The Guest" and certainly a form of irony in Meursault's final monologue -- but I think he is completely in earnest! I don't think he can spend an entire novella being perfectly and always unironic and then ask us to us to suddenly interpret him as being sardonic in the final page!! I think that is why Camus calls him "the only Christ we deserve," because something in the cries of hate of the onlookers would bring the episode to a conclusion, removing a degree of displacement that is forced upon by rarefied language like "you will be put to death in the name of the French people," or whatever it was. The man is a Mediterranean sensualist -- the cries of hate will not be a mark of irony or defiance on his part, but something he can emotionally or humanly latch onto.
I don't think Camus was at all ironic in all his years at Combat!! I don't think he was at all ironic in his writings either. Basically, I think he should be considered the patron saint of atheists! :) However, have you ever come across the book "Albert Camus and the Minister"?
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 11:34:59 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
I like those lyrics, very clever! Do you who wrote them?
I don't like to name drop, but They Might Be Giants, John Flansburgh, I think.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 11:36:39 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
It does, but if there is no action to balance it I don't think it will serve its purpose.
Sounds like James and all those other verses dealing with the paradoxical proper understanding of "faith vs. works."
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/1/2008 12:47:22 PM
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rcjames
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I chose to beieve.
I had the opportunity many times prior to the beginning of my belief to believe, and chose to disbelieve.
So of course it is a choise.
And it is so sad that many continue to choose not to believe.
But the reason for that continuation is not a mystery for Scripture puts it so plainly;
(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Some folks just continue to love their sins more than they do God; so they continue to not believe.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/6/2008 11:58:36 AM
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abraxas
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Hi again hhh,
I've only read two of Camus' works, and it has been a while. If I'm missing something there let me know. In The Stranger I appreciated what seemed like a character study--a caricature maybe--of a nihilist--or maybe a fatalist? "Why did you kill him?" "The sun was in my eyes." "Prison, freedom. Life, death. Whatever." Okay, it was an intriguing read. But then in The Fall it was more of the same, and heavier. In particular I remember how the man spoke so cynically of his past life, when he was generous with his time and talents, especially to the "little guy". Perhaps it was a timing thing but he kind of got bumped from my list. If I missed the boat I want to hear it! Why do you consider him the patron saint of atheists?
It's hard to track down books in this country I live in but I'll keep Albert Camus and the Minister in mind. Thanks.
And yes, I think the faith-vs-works reference is a fair one.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/6/2008 2:43:45 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Hi again hhh,
I've only read two of Camus' works, and it has been a while. If I'm missing something there let me know. In The Stranger I appreciated what seemed like a character study--a caricature maybe--of a nihilist--or maybe a fatalist? "Why did you kill him?" "The sun was in my eyes." "Prison, freedom. Life, death. Whatever." Okay, it was an intriguing read. But then in The Fall it was more of the same, and heavier. In particular I remember how the man spoke so cynically of his past life, when he was generous with his time and talents, especially to the "little guy". Perhaps it was a timing thing but he kind of got bumped from my list. If I missed the boat I want to hear it! Why do you consider him the patron saint of atheists?
It's hard to track down books in this country I live in but I'll keep Albert Camus and the Minister in mind. Thanks.
And yes, I think the faith-vs-works reference is a fair one.
No! Not a nihilist! :) Not a fatalist either. I don't think it is a close reading to say that Meursault is concerned with fate. "The sun was in my eyes," is a physical experience, of course. Imagine the scenario: He was tired, the sun was not only in his eyes but the man's knife was glinting in his eyes. Have you ever felt hot and tired!!?? Doesn't it sometimes lead us to do things we might not normally do, given our our normal temperament? Read Dostoevsky (The Demons, etc.) for a depiction of nihilists! Interestingly, Camus' play based on another translation of The Demons was "The Possessed." The Stranger is often well-understood by teenagers or young people, because Meursault was basically like a child in some ways -- he never tried to justify himself beyond the immediate and the physical. A child may not think to say "I was hungry, hot, and tired," when excusing himself for some transgression, but their parents know. Meursault both knows and excuses. Jean-Clamence, or whatever his name is (it is significant to understanding though), both knows (observes) -- confesses and judges, really. His name, apparently, means "judge-penitent," but I actually forget his name. Didn't read that one more than two or three times compared to several more for the Stranger! Interestingly, though, Camus has an essay called "Irony," which would be great place to start to figure out what he believes (or at least thought about at the time) about irony!
Yeah, I am quite a big fan. Camus is very relevant to this thread to me, because I would credit his writing to leading me to the Bible, to thinking about Christian concepts, and to reading others that also did the same.
I wish I had more to say, but perhaps I will after I hear more from you about Camus.
Also, you might be interested to know that he did not consider himself an existentialist or inheriting form their thought -- thou certainly he was a contemporary. It won't take long to find confirmation of this fact. One of his books I have not read in its entirety tho is one of his philosophical works, The Rebel. It is very interesting, though. I would encourage you to spend all kinds of time on this guy, but there are other good folks to read too, and it wouldn't be a tragedy if you never came around to my point of view.
Also, I think someone else, a Catholic, actually suggested some special status to Camus who cannot be said to have publicly expressed Christianity, but certainly was interested in dialogue with. I need to do more research on this though.
Albert Camus and the Minister is by a Methodist, American minister who spoke with Camus near his death and claims that Camus privately professed Christianity in some ways. Interesting!
See ya
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/6/2008 9:43:38 PM
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SonInMe1
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I didn't read any other responses but mine is...
my belief chose me.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/8/2008 5:08:48 PM
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OneJohn410
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I hope we can keep from veering TOO far away from the OP (though beachcooky I think you make a good point.)
Here are two comments that I recently came across here, which if we go on the assumption that we don't just 'choose' our beliefs, become problematic. Thoughts?
quote:
The Christain certainly knows it is not God sending us [to Hell],
but we, ourselves, because of whom we choose to follow.
quote:
At that point, Yeshua will point out that the price has been paid for those of us who accept it.
Sure, I've got some thoughts. When were you were going to consider you had enough representative samples of replies to conclude your research? Were you going to answer your own questions for the rest of us? What do you call a belief held without choice? Is it a non-intentional compulsion? You said you have beliefs about God, and that you do not consider beliefs to be held by choice? Are you excluding those from your study, or was this to try to back up your own beliefs? By the time I saw this thread, you were already getting nit-picky about others answers and hadn't answered your questions yourself. That makes for a very odd poll/study to take part in.
OneJohn410
_____________________________
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 (NIV)
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/9/2008 12:00:40 PM
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abraxas
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Hi hhh,
Strangely enough, I noticed a copy of "The Fall" on a friend's shelf just the other day, and I'm feeling persuaded by you to give him another look.
You wrote,
quote:
The Stranger is often well-understood by teenagers or young people, because Meursault was basically like a child in some ways -- he never tried to justify himself beyond the immediate and the physical. A child may not think to say "I was hungry, hot, and tired," when excusing himself for some transgression, but their parents know.
What do you think Camus was alluding to with this character? I mean, he was told he faced the death penalty but even then he was saying, "The sun was in my eyes." Why?
Anyway, I've got that book (The Fall), so I'll be having a go at it soon.
take care,
abraxas
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/9/2008 12:25:12 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
Sure, I've got some thoughts. When were you were going to consider you had enough representative samples of replies to conclude your research?
Just waiting for you, OneJohn410.  Sorry, I guess I thought the thread had started to fade.
quote:
Were you going to answer your own questions for the rest of us?
I don't believe that our beliefs are simply a matter of choice, like choosing to steal or not, to lie or tell the truth, to order lasagne or linguini.
quote:
What do you call a belief held without choice? Is it a non-intentional compulsion?
I call it a belief. 'non-intentional compulsion' doesn't sound far off.
quote:
You said you have beliefs about God, and that you do not consider beliefs to be held by choice? Are you excluding those from your study, or was this to try to back up your own beliefs?
I definitely don't exlude my own beliefs from my "study." The beliefs I have about God are not the ones I set out to have. If belief were a matter of choice I would have different beliefs. I have a feeling lots of people go through a phase like that, where they desire a certain belief, maybe due to social pressure, a need for things to make sense, whatever.
That some attain that belief and some don't is something I wonder about. Perhaps for some belief really is a matter of choice. But if it is, and the criteria for that choice is anything besides "I am persuaded of its truthfulness" (e.g. is it due to social/family pressures?), I wonder how the mind can leave itself alone, knowing that it chose its belief for some reason other than that it's true?
And if the mind chose to believe because it was convinced of truthfulness, then, what, did it choose to believe what it already believed was true? Once the mind is persuaded of truthfulness, the 'choice' has already been made. Yes, this is involuntary.
quote:
By the time I saw this thread, you were already getting nit-picky about others answers and hadn't answered your questions yourself. That makes for a very odd poll/study to take part in.
When someone says, "I chose to believe because I chose to believe" or "I chose to believe because it's true!" then I will point out the circularity, or the tautology, of their statement. If someone said, "I chose to like chocolate because it tastes great", can you see how maybe it isn't quite accurate to say they "chose" to like chocolate. If they say it tastes great, it sounds like they already like it, there's no choice in the matter. If that's nit-picking, well, then I guess some nit-picking is needed.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/9/2008 12:54:41 PM
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Paul_Thomas
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Very few people make a conscious choice to accept a particular belief system. A belief system is formed through ones exposure to cultural influences and environmental influences (usually family and other influential people).
Most people who "become a Christian" through "accepting Christ" have already adopted a belief system that included the concepts of God and Jesus being God as well as the effect of his death and resurrection. These are usually cultural believers - because of their cultural exposure their belief system developed as a way of thinking, often without any real consciousness on their part.
Then there are those who by cultural development have a completely secular belief system, yet because of environmental exposure they begin to adopt another belief system. Paul writing to the Romans penned, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). However, he prefaced that statement by explaining that one cannot believe in something of which he has not heart, and one cannot hear without someone speaking (verses 14-15).
My particular testimony is that I became a Christian through cultural and environmental influences, but my walk with God has been deepened through personal effort of applying the principles I have found in his word.
_____________________________
Paul
www.newhopeministryresources.org
Reconciled - Renewed - Restored
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/9/2008 1:08:51 PM
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terryjohn
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I once met a girl who was in a cult and she said she just wanted to believe in something. I was somewhat shocked that people could beleive just about anything if that is all they wanted and truth had very little to do with what they beleived in.
Now I am sure what she meant was about belong to something real or something she could comfort herself with. I also woundered if I could ask muslims if they had to be muslims? That is, did they have any choice in the matter? Here we get to the heart of the problem for are our beliefs determined by our culture, family or peer pressure? If so we may well find little satisfaction in what we now find ourselves beleiving.
Now if this was all there was to it, there would not then be the suggestion that we have then to be, "born again". That is, if our beliefs being based on belonging to our culture were sufficient, then there would not be the subsequent requirement to be born again.
Hence, despite being born into a christian; church, country, family and culture there is a call/need to move beyond all this and once we do, all that which proceeded it is seen as being insufficent.
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/9/2008 1:19:26 PM
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Paul_Thomas
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terryjohn, you have made a true statement. I wasn't actually addressing the issue of being born again, I was addressing the issue of a belief system. If we have a belief system that is based upon consistent truth that belief system will lead us to acknowledge Christ and be become born of the spirit.
Regardless of ones belief system there is but one name under heaven whereby men must be saved (Acts 4:12) and one is saved through faith in that name alone (Romans 10:8-13).
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Paul
www.newhopeministryresources.org
Reconciled - Renewed - Restored
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/11/2008 9:20:25 AM
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hellohellohi
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
I mean, he was told he faced the death penalty but even then he was saying, "The sun was in my eyes." Why?
I would say he was just being honest. -- Maybe comparisons to the trial of Socrates are relevant! -- That's the only reason he could think of -- the most proximate one -- for his pulling the trigger. Of course, some things led up to it. Why was he holding a gun? I don't think the question is put to him. But, when he pulled the trigger, I think, three more times, something else was going on -- it sounds like the sensualist man is approaching a realization of despair. However, I think by the end, he changes that despair or possibility of despair into earnest desire to sympathize with the onlookers in a sensible way. However, such might still be despair, but I don't think he was hoping for self-hatred, only sympathy with the onlookers, and sympathy is certainly in character for him (e.g.: sympathizing with the fellow who convinced him to confront the Arab, sympathizing with his boss by apologizing for missing work to go to his mother's funeral, sympathizing with people who sympathize with him on the stand.)
Cool you're taking another look. Don't stop with the Fall tho! You might want to read Camus' favorite author (??) too, Dostoevsky. i don't know if he was a sole favorite tho. :)
As far as what was Camus' intent, he said to depict "the only Christ we deserve," which I take to mean a fellow who never despaired and even earnestly believed himself to always be in the right, yet still did not resent others for disagreeing and reprimanding him as a man to the point of requiring his death. Of course, it is a novel -- is such possible? Yes, hypothetically. The further point in this phrase, though not present in the novel, is that we don't "deserve" the Christ of the Bible -- the very MOST we could ask for would be for someone who did not 1) cry out in scorn at the world (see Caligula), 2) justify his death rationally (see the Rebel), only sensually or emotionally, 3) live ironically, yes, as in The Fall, 4) live like a coward (Daru, The Guest), 5) other examples of despair?
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 8/11/2008 9:29:01 AM >
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RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 8/11/2008 10:27:21 AM
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Theophile2
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Fundamentally, this post is no different than the ones on Calvinists vs Armenians, monergism vs synergism, or choice vs election; and without using scripture to back up what formed the opinion it too will go on forever without resolution of the opinions.
Either the Bible is the trusted, infallible, inerrant Word of God given for our instruction, edification, and guidance, or it is not.
Since the author of the OP has mixed choice of Christianity vs other religions with choice of doctrine within Christianity, this will take some time to untangle.
Choice of Christianity vs other religions ultimately has to do with the question of choice verses election.
If it is a matter of choice being no different than going to a salad bar and picking what suits you, then a multitude of psychological and sociological mantras can be brought to bear on why any individual makes whatever choice he/she makes based on nature/nurture/education/logic, etc.
If it is a matter of election, then those who "chose" other religions, cults, etc. are just simply lost (dead) souls looking to satisfy the God-given desire to worship without the guidance of the Holy Spirit … souls that need to hear the Gospel message (Ro 10:13-17).
Moving on then, to those who are Christians (deferring for the moment the reason for how they came to be), and discussing why one Christian chooses one denomination over another to which I would say still falls into the nature/nurture/education/logic category, but with a twist - given those influential factors, what has the Holy Spirit brought to light to the one who is genuinely studying the scriptures so as to seek after the mind of Christ vs the one who is plodding along with what he/she was told by parents, pastors, friends was the doctrine to believe? In either way, one may ultimately come to the same conclusion as to which doctrine is most Biblically consistent, but one is based on hearsay, and the other is based on a faithful study of the scriptures.
To this end, R.C. Sproul’s books “Choosing My Religion” and “What is Reformed Theology” might be of benefit.
Ultimately, in the matter of choosing one's Christian denomination, we must side with the Reformer's mantra: “preserve unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in both” (- Rupertus Meldenius, circa 1627)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine/quote.html
Since this boils down to the choice vs election debate (because if this is settled it makes the other questions about other religions a short commentary), let’s talk of how one “chooses” to be Christian, and here's how I have learned to explain it:
The Bible clearly states that everyone begins spiritually dead. If we begin this way, I would like to know how a dead man gets up off of the coroner’s slab, walks over to the doctor, and says “I hear you have a cure and can bring me back to life. I want you to do that for me.”
Within the natural world, humans are spiritually separated in separate “circles” to the left and to the right, much like they will be at the end of time. These circles do not have open doors, there are no bridges from one circle to another, there is no way for a human in his or her own power to traverse from one to the other. The | | |
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