quote:

ORIGINAL: radiorobert

If someone offers me a pill I don't recognize, says it's harmless, and I know enough to know that some pills are and some pills aren't, I have a craving for something to take my headache away and this person promises it will do just that...should I automatically do it without thinking first and taking something I'm more familiar with? Even if that means waiting a little bit longer to relieve my headache?

Do you see the problem here?

We have a society that believes people have a 'right' to HAVE certain things just b/c they want them. If they have an urge, or a craving or a desire, it automatically has to be fulfilled. That was never what this country was intended for. ( or many others for that matter) And it definately is not how God has set life up to work.

You only get the privilage of owning a home once you have the means and resources to properly handle it. You have a responsibility to do your homework. ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am absolutely not advocating criminal business practices at all. But the only sure fire way to protect yourself from them is to guard your heart against desires that might lead you to fall victim to them. (gee thats nowhere in scripture is it? )

These people do not have a right to things just b/c they want them. That mentality is leading them to pursue these bad deals, and then in the process, satan traps them in these schemes. If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. And, just b/c they live in a tiny apartment and want a nice big home, doesn't mean they deserve it b/c they are somehow oppressed or have been 'done wrong' by the man.

Whatever happened to guarding our hearts against our own fleshly desires??

And you know what else is kind of goofy? Why is it that when someone pursues a desire, in an honest hardworking manner and profits very well from it, certain persons on this board are lighting fast to jump all over it and put them down. But when someone with less income does the same and makes poor decisions in the process, they are absolved of any wrong doing??

I'll tell what I believe is happening, and has been for quite a while.

We have raised poverty up as a virtue and success has been deemed evil. Just b/c someone is able to HAVE something that someone else doesn't have but maybe wants, doesn't mean that they have to give it up or have it taken away to make the other person feel better.

And the really hard truth for so many is that poverty is being raised up as a virtue b/c money is increasingly becoming more and more of an idol to everyone. Therefore, if someone can't get as much as they want. They feel the need to take it away from those who can earn it or have earned it. The noble poor person mentality comes from a twisting of scripture, combined with a need to feel good about things that someone else doesn't have or hasn't put the effort forth to do.

Christ would rebuke many of us, b/c our desire to see others fall is rooted in our desires to have what they have.

It's sickening that forums like this (Christian forums no less) have this much bandwidth taken up from aall this bickering and arguing about "who has what and why". Or..."who's to blame for this persons problems" without automatically analyzing ones self first.

If you don't have the money or the means......................................................DON'T DO IT.

I am experiencing a time in my life right now where I really want a high end computer gaming machine. But, our finances combined with some lifestyle changes right now, won't allow it to happen right away. That makes me inpatient at times b/c I find myself wanting it now rather than later. However, I know in time, if I SAVE money and put it aside, I'll get to have it, with the right amount of discipline.

My wife and I also want a house. But we are not in a position to buy right now. I just changed jobs, we have a baby on the way and we are not 100% sure we'll still be here in a few years. Waiting a year and saving up money will let me know if I truly like the job, will give us time to build up a down payment, and give us time to allow God to work more in our lives in case there is anything else he has in store for us.

The hardest part of all is that it was a 40% increase in pay for me, and my wife just received a raise at her exisiting job. SO automatically there is that urge to want to immediatley fulfill those desires with that extra income.

whew................I gotta stop for now.

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ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

Also, while condemning all these heartless loan sharks, let's all remember that when it comes down to it, people basically always want more than they can afford. I'm betting a good 90% of the people "bilked" in these mortgage situations absolutely knew they'd live to regret it, but thought that in the meantime some pie-in-the-sky possibility existed that their economic fortunes would keep pace with any changes in the future. In the meantime, they had the opportunity to live it up in a nice pad then walk away with nothing worse than the same dinged up credit most of them came in with. Truly, I don't feel sorry for the credit industry in this country. Losing money on deadbeats should theoretically keep them prudent in their lending. No one said lending money is risk-free, it ought not be risk-free. Anyone wanting to buy a home, that ended up with a ARM loan was busy ignoring EVERY single financial advice column or consumer publication warning against, and probably only ended up with one because their already bad credit and inability to save up even a token down-payment drove them there. They say a fool and his money are soon parted, but the only fools I see are the taxpayers holding the bag yet again.

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Excellent point!!!! Prudence, ethics and common sense is a must!

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There seems to be an unquieting trend to blame the victim. Caveat emptor is always wise but it's not just poor, first time home buyers wanting too much that have fallen victim to these unscupulous lenders. Its older people on fixed incomes as well.

On a parallel note, should we blame those whose houses have been broken into as not being careful enough in securing their homes as well? They wanted too many nice things that attracted the criminals? I'd like to see more compassion for victims.

The banks are covering themselves with the bailout legislation and the FBI is investigating some banks and even widening the list of charges brought against them for some illegal practices that were practiced by the banks. Sometimes criminals are smarter than honest people!

quote:

ORIGINAL: radiorobert

If someone offers me a pill I don't recognize, says it's harmless, and I know enough to know that some pills are and some pills aren't, I have a craving for something to take my headache away and this person promises it will do just that...should I automatically do it without thinking first and taking something I'm more familiar with? Even if that means waiting a little bit longer to relieve my headache?

quote:

Do you see the problem here?

quote:

We have a society that believes people have a 'right' to HAVE certain things just b/c they want them. If they have an urge, or a craving or a desire, it automatically has to be fulfilled. That was never what this country was intended for. ( or many others for that matter) And it definately is not how God has set life up to work.

quote:

You only get the privilage of owning a home once you have the means and resources to properly handle it. You have a responsibility to do your homework. ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

I am absolutely not advocating criminal business practices at all. But the only sure fire way to protect yourself from them is to guard your heart against desires that might lead you to fall victim to them. (gee thats nowhere in scripture is it? )

quote:

These people do not have a right to things just b/c they want them. That mentality is leading them to pursue these bad deals, and then in the process, satan traps them in these schemes. If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. And, just b/c they live in a tiny apartment and want a nice big home, doesn't mean they deserve it b/c they are somehow oppressed or have been 'done wrong' by the man.

quote:

Whatever happened to guarding our hearts against our own fleshly desires??

quote:

We have raised poverty up as a virtue and success has been deemed evil. Just b/c someone is able to HAVE something that someone else doesn't have but maybe wants, doesn't mean that they have to give it up or have it taken away to make the other person feel better.

quote:

It's sickening that forums like this (Christian forums no less) have this much bandwidth taken up from aall this bickering and arguing about "who has what and why". Or..."who's to blame for this persons problems" without automatically analyzing ones self first.

If you don't have the money or the means......................................................DON'T DO IT.

I am experiencing a time in my life right now where I really want a high end computer gaming machine. But, our finances combined with some lifestyle changes right now, won't allow it to happen right away. That makes me inpatient at times b/c I find myself wanting it now rather than later. However, I know in time, if I SAVE money and put it aside, I'll get to have it, with the right amount of discipline.

quote:

My wife and I also want a house. But we are not in a position to buy right now. I just changed jobs, we have a baby on the way and we are not 100% sure we'll still be here in a few years. Waiting a year and saving up money will let me know if I truly like the job, will give us time to build up a down payment, and give us time to allow God to work more in our lives in case there is anything else he has in store for us.

The hardest part of all is that it was a 40% increase in pay for me, and my wife just received a raise at her exisiting job. SO automatically there is that urge to want to immediatley fulfill those desires with that extra income.

whew................I gotta stop for now.

quote:

Well it is what it is, so if this is the way you feel, than a lot of people just aren't smart enough to have a mortgage and should be content with renting, until they can pay cash for a place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: radiorobert
But in your analogy, they are being forced upon by an outside aggressor. They have a CHOICE whether or not to buy a home through lender A or B. With fixed rate A or ARM B. They can take a day and read the fine print with A or B.

quote:

Victims are those whose situation has been thrust upon them without any choice whatsoever. They can't choose who breaks into their home. You can't choose who sneaks upon you when you didn't ask someone to come to your house in the first place. Your analogy makes it sound like these people have had a gun pointed at their head and have been forced to sign with these lenders.

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If a lender breaks a contractual agreemnet, then by all means, they are a victim, b/c they signed upon a pre-condition, knowing what to expect and didn't get that. But thats not what is happening in most of the credit crisis cases today. We have people buying what they can't afford.

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I would fully advocate prosecuting predatory banks/lenders to the utmost.

But I'm just not willing to not look at the other root of the problem either. If we are going to hold sides accountable, both sides must be held accountable.

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And as someone pointed out above, the credit industry is getting what they deserve in this situation. Companies know they can get burned and do it anyway, are just asking for disaster. In fact this illustrates the same scenario, just on the lenders end. Wanting more than you can afford. We have a society bent on getting it all.

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ORIGINAL: colliefan

No. we just need to return to the days when a substantial downpayment (at least 10%) was required to purchase a home and people were encouraged to save money for this purpose.

Perhaps what is needed is to set up tax-defered savings plans for this purpose,

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Not necessarily. The credit industry and the origination industry are often separate. What the investing industry should have understood back in 2004 was "caveat emptor".

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True, but you shouldn't have to play a game to get a mortgage.

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There are a lot of people who could have afforded these homes on a traditional mortgage, but were instead pressured into a gimmicky mortgage that would make the broker more money.

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Not necessarily. The credit industry and the origination industry are often separate. What the investing industry should have understood back in 2004 was "caveat emptor".

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These people do not have a right to things just b/c they want them. That mentality is leading them to pursue these bad deals, and then in the process, satan traps them in these schemes. If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. And, just b/c they live in a tiny apartment and want a nice big home, doesn't mean they deserve it b/c they are somehow oppressed or have been 'done wrong' by the man.

Whatever happened to guarding our hearts against our own fleshly desires??

quote:

I think there should be a savings instrument that you can commit money to for a five year period and be exempt from taxes on the income that corresponds to the increase in consumer CPI over that period. If you invest $100 and it grows to $150 during the period, but the CPI basket goes from $100 to $120, you should only be taxed on the $30 of after-inflation gains, rather than the full $50.

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Yeah they were dumb to be too trusting! Or would you, if you were a loan officer RC, give someone a loan you knew they wouldn't be able to afford? I'd bet a million dollars you have more ethics than that.

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A home is the largest purchase a person will ever make, and of course the largest monthly payments that one will make.

If anyone signs a note and does not read it or have an attorney read it if they can't understand it; then they should bear the consequences.

And they should not be bailed out by tax monies collected from other folks who bought homes that they could afford.

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No sympathy from me on this; none, zero, zilch, nada.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

Not unsuspecting borrowers, ignorant ones. I'm sorry to say that it shouldn't take a third party to tell someone what they can afford. If I make 40k a year, I don't care what someone says I know I cannot afford a 200k dollar house. A large part of the blame on this one goes to the buyer IMO.

The people who find themselves in the mess of owning more house than they can afford are people that trusted their loan officer to be ethical. If you could afford a nicer house in a nicer neighborhood most people would jump at the opportunity.

The problem was that these unscrupulous lenders did not disclose all the terms and fees and what the payments were going to be in five years (which the lender probably knew they couldn't afford). But let's get their signature on the documents, collect our broker's fees or commissions and move on to the next sucker (ahem) customer!

quote:

ORIGINAL: radiorobert

quote:

There seems to be an unquieting trend to blame the victim. Caveat emptor is always wise but it's not just poor, first time home buyers wanting too much that have fallen victim to these unscupulous lenders. Its older people on fixed incomes as well.

On a parallel note, should we blame those whose houses have been broken into as not being careful enough in securing their homes as well? They wanted too many nice things that attracted the criminals? I'd like to see more compassion for victims.

The banks are covering themselves with the bailout legislation and the FBI is investigating some banks and even widening the list of charges brought against them for some illegal practices that were practiced by the banks. Sometimes criminals are smarter than honest people!

But in your analogy, they are being forced upon by an outside aggressor. They have a CHOICE whether or not to buy a home through lender A or B. With fixed rate A or ARM B. They can take a day and read the fine print with A or B.

Victims are those whose situation has been thrust upon them without any choice whatsoever. They can't choose who breaks into their home. You can't choose who sneaks upon you when you didn't ask someone to come to your house in the first place. Your analogy makes it sound like these people have had a gun pointed at their head and have been forced to sign with these lenders.

If a lender breaks a contractual agreemnet, then by all means, they are a victim, b/c they signed upon a pre-condition, knowing what to expect and didn't get that. But thats not what is happening in most of the credit crisis cases today. We have people buying what they can't afford.

I would fully advocate prosecuting predatory banks/lenders to the utmost.

But I'm just not willing to not look at the other root of the problem either. If we are going to hold sides accountable, both sides must be held accountable.

And as someone pointed out above, the credit industry is getting what they deserve in this situation. Companies know they can get burned and do it anyway, are just asking for disaster. In fact this illustrates the same scenario, just on the lenders end. Wanting more than you can afford. We have a society bent on getting it all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think that if you accidentally cashed a check that had very fine unnoticable print around the sides where you agreed to give the checkwriter the contents of your bank account, you might change your mind.

Everybody got cheated here, but I think the biggest culprits may have been those brokers who committed fraud (as well as maybe the hedge fund managers who are also facing fraud charges).

[Edited by moderator - TOS 5]

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Yeah they were dumb to be too trusting! Or would you, if you were a loan officer RC, give someone a loan you knew they wouldn't be able to afford? I'd bet a million dollars you have more ethics than that.

A home is the largest purchase a person will ever make, and of course the largest monthly payments that one will make.

If anyone signs a note and does not read it or have an attorney read it if they can't understand it; then they should bear the consequences.

And they should not be bailed out by tax monies collected from other folks who bought homes that they could afford.

No sympathy from me on this; none, zero, zilch, nada.

Thanks
RC

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Good thing God didn't think that way after Adam and Eve didn't keep their most important contract (no, even more important - COVENANT) with the Almighty. (What a couple of dummies! ) Instead of saying "tough luck", He paid the price for our sin through His Son Jesus. Now that's a lesson in compassion!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Good thing God didn't think that way after Adam and Eve didn't keep their most important contract (no, even more important - COVENANT) with the Almighty. (What a couple of dummies! ) Instead of saying "tough luck", He paid the price for our sin through His Son Jesus. Now that's a lesson in compassion!

Good analogy, Adam and Eve were dummies and did not keep the covenant so they were thrown out of their home (Eden).

Many of the folks in trouble today were even bigger dummies for agreeing to something they could not do, and they are getting thrown out of their homes.

Thanks
RC