RE: If Abortion is Murder

RE: If Abortion is Murder (Full Version)

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GroupW -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 1:00:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ddave12000 I'm sure the story is more complicated overall than I'm making it, but I'm pretty sure that Scott Peterson was convicted of killing both his wife and unborn child. I always wondered why would he even be charged with the crime of murdering his child when women do it every day legally? I generally stay out of these discussions, but since the question was raised.... The Peterson baby was judged to be a full term infant based on the remains that were examined. As such, legally it would have been infanticide aka murder. That's the legal reasoning for the dual conviction.

solo_soprano22 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 1:09:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: ddave12000 I'm sure the story is more complicated overall than I'm making it, but I'm pretty sure that Scott Peterson was convicted of killing both his wife and unborn child. I always wondered why would he even be charged with the crime of murdering his child when women do it every day legally? I generally stay out of these discussions, but since the question was raised.... The Peterson baby was judged to be a full term infant based on the remains that were examined. As such, legally it would have been infanticide aka murder. That's the legal reasoning for the dual conviction. I was going to say that maybe it was a viability issue. (I wasn't sure though.)

ConstantReader -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 6:58:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva OK- so if abortion where to become illegal, do you think that the women who've had abortions should receive the same fate as murderers? Are you serious? Overworked and underbudgeted DA's offices and police forces are already strapped for cash and man-hours as it is. Are you suggesting that every abortion recipient be punished for past abortions as well? Oy. [8\|]

ConstantReader -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 7:02:09 PM)
Oh, and another question: In this grand, glorious plan of yours SARCASM, would Christian women (who have been forgiven of this sin) be included in this punishment? Plus, how much punishment is right and proper for all recipients of abortion? What about repeat offenders? Repeat offender abortion providers? I'm so tempted to shoot myself in the face right now. [8\|]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:06:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Yes, the numbers are huge. That tells me that this is more of a heart issue than a legal issue, but I've said that for years. All sin/crime is a heart issue... An issue of the sinful heart... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:11:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ConstantReader Oh, and another question: In this grand, glorious plan of yours SARCASM, would Christian women (who have been forgiven of this sin) be included in this punishment? The Christians women should be the first ones in line since above all they should understand what they have done... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Yes, the numbers are huge. That tells me that this is more of a heart issue than a legal issue, but I've said that for years. I think it is a heart issue (but maybe in a different way). If there were some way to get everyone to believe in their heart that abortion is the exact same thing as any murder, I think there would be fewer of them. But not eveyone believes this in their heart of hearts; not everyone will. (This is just my opinion; I never said it was a fact. [8D]) Making it illegal won't make everyone think it's murder (and it probably won't change the heart), although you would be able to punish people then. Everyone doesn't have to believe it murder for it to be murder... People convince themselves of things all the time and it doesn't remove the wrong from what they do... John

Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:15:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ConstantReader quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva OK- so if abortion where to become illegal, do you think that the women who've had abortions should receive the same fate as murderers? Are you serious? Overworked and under budgeted DA's offices and police forces are already strapped for cash and man-hours as it is. Are you suggesting that every abortion recipient be punished for past abortions as well? Oy. [8\|] I'm not, but there are those on these boards that seem to be implying that. I started this thread because of another thread about abortion and I didn't want to derail that one by asking the question. quote: Oh, and another question: In this grand, glorious plan of yours SARCASM, would Christian women (who have been forgiven of this sin) be included in this punishment? Plus, how much punishment is right and proper for all recipients of abortion? What about repeat offenders? Repeat offender abortion providers? I'm so tempted to shoot myself in the face right now. I happen to be one of those women who had an abortion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To all: FWIW- I know what the law says. I'm interested in hearing what you'd like to see happen or what you think should happen to the men, women and abortionists.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 8:53:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva I'm not, but there are those on these boards that seem to be implying that. I started this thread because of another thread about abortion and I didn't want to derail that one by asking the question. I haven't seen anyone calling for those who have had abortions to be tried for murder in regards to the past. They should have been, and of course God will deal with it one way or another... quote: To all: FWIW- I know what the law says. I'm interested in hearing what you'd like to see happen or what you think should happen to the men, women and abortionists. The should be treated like anyone else who hires a person to murder... And the person who does the deed should be dealt with as well, of course... John

wayward1 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 9:44:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Yes, the numbers are huge. That tells me that this is more of a heart issue than a legal issue, but I've said that for years. I think it is a heart issue (but maybe in a different way). If there were some way to get everyone to believe in their heart that abortion is the exact same thing as any murder, I think there would be fewer of them. But not eveyone believes this in their heart of hearts; not everyone will. (This is just my opinion; I never said it was a fact. [8D]) Making it illegal won't make everyone think it's murder (and it probably won't change the heart), although you would be able to punish people then. Everyone doesn't have to believe it murder for it to be murder... People convince themselves of things all the time and it doesn't remove the wrong from what they do... John And fortunately everyone doesn't have to believe it's not murder for it to not be murder. People certainly do convince themselves of things all the time and it most certainly does not remove the wrong from what they do... I will only ask where the proponents of "abortion=murder" would draw the line. Egg and sperm are potential people as well. It seems the natural extension from abortion=murder would be prevention=murder, especially for certain denominations. If abortion is to be regarded as murder and punished as such, then what of the fathers who support the decision, and the families. Are they also to be considered accomplices? In a traditional murder charge anyone who knew the intentions of the murderer before the murder can be tried as an accomplice to murder. What of the nurses in the hospitals where the procedures are done. What of the receptionists at the clinics who know what their establishment is for. Are these all damnable people in the eyes of the abortion=murder lot here? And on what basis would we support the decision to charge and convict all of these sinners? A biblical basis? If so we should fear the day when some other people are in power who find some practice of ours to be damnable. This is why we make decisions diplomatically when we can. Abortion is ugly, but it is not murder. It is between the mother and God when and if she meets Him.

deborlie -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 10:01:03 PM)
Here I go again......... Remember the scripture where the woman caught in adultry, was brought to Jesus. What did he do? I am very against abortions, too. I want that to be clear. Man, you haven't changed, not one iota. Here, women are being dragged in front of Jesus, wanting the authority to stone them to death for their unholy act. I've always wondered where the man was who was just as guilty as she?. So, lets pretend.............. All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Does the story of guilt and punishment get rewritten because all guilty parties (including the male partner) are brought to task? Now, are there enough stones to accomplish the capital punishment you are suggesting, or perhap there just aren't enough stone throwers left to carry it out. BJ

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 10:04:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wayward1 If abortion is to be regarded as murder and punished as such, then what of the fathers who support the decision, and the families. Are they also to be considered accomplices? In a traditional murder charge anyone who knew the intentions of the murderer before the murder can be tried as an accomplice to murder. What of the nurses in the hospitals where the procedures are done. What of the receptionists at the clinics who know what their establishment is for. Are these all damnable people in the eyes of the abortion=murder lot here? If complictly can be proven... quote: And on what basis would we support the decision to charge and convict all of these sinners? A biblical basis? If so we should fear the day when some other people are in power who find some practice of ours to be damnable. This is why we make decisions diplomatically when we can. Abortion is ugly, but it is not murder. It is between the mother and God when and if she meets Him. Assassination isn't murder it's between the assassin and God...[8\|] Btw.. If you really belive it's not murder what is there to between the person(mothers raise children they don't hire someone to murder them...) and God in the first place? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 10:16:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deborlie Here I go again......... Remember the scripture where the woman caught in adultry, was brought to Jesus. Yes I remember... Do you recall why they brought her forward? They brought her to Jesus for the sole purpose to accuse Him... Not for justice... Those who brought the woman forward didn't adhere to the law in way shape or form... quote: What did he do? Given their actions He did what He could.... quote: Man, you haven't changed, not one iota. Here, women are being dragged in front of Jesus, wanting the authority to stone them to death for their unholy act. The actual authority was the Roman government... quote: I've always wondered where the man was who was just as guilty as she?. You should, since that goes to the piont that justice wasn't on the minds of those who brought her forward... quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... quote: Does the story of guilt and punishment get rewritten because all guilty parties (including the male partner) are brought to task? You mean the story were a group attempted to pervert the law in order to accuse Jesus? quote: Now, are there enough stones to accomplish the capital punishment you are suggesting, or perhap there just aren't enough stone throwers left to carry it out. The civil government that God ordained to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil(murder is evil) would be the proper authority to deal with those... John

wayward1 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 10:33:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: wayward1 If abortion is to be regarded as murder and punished as such, then what of the fathers who support the decision, and the families. Are they also to be considered accomplices? In a traditional murder charge anyone who knew the intentions of the murderer before the murder can be tried as an accomplice to murder. What of the nurses in the hospitals where the procedures are done. What of the receptionists at the clinics who know what their establishment is for. Are these all damnable people in the eyes of the abortion=murder lot here? If complictly can be proven... I'm sorry. What is "complictly"? quote: Assassination isn't murder it's between the assassin and God...[8\|] But my friend it is you and not I who would have the lines blurred regarding whether or not assassination is to be regarded as murder. If we do not reserve a special place in our hearts (and prisons) for the concept of MURDER, then we are going down a slippery slope. It is understood by all that murder is committed by one person against A SEPARATE person. You can advocate inception of a criminal charge to be levied against women who elect to abort and I think you can make a good argument. It stands to reason that we should punish young mothers who would abort their pregnancy for selfish reasons. Perhaps even a short jail term could be in order to give them time to reevaluate their priorities, but if we lump them in with common murderers we have eviscerated the charge of murder to at least some small degree. Let me phrase this differently. I hate to invoke such imagery but imagine your own child is murdered by a stranger. Do you want him considered guilty of only the same crime as a mother who had an abortion? I hardly think it sounds fair. quote: Btw.. If you really belive it's not murder what is there to between the person(mothers raise children they don't hire someone to murder them...) and God in the first place? John I'm sorry. What does "what is there to between the person and God in the first place" mean?

Child4Jesus -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 10:45:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Would you want all of the women who've had abortions to be tried or would you allow for some cases to go unpunished ---- like say a woman who had one 30 years ago and is now in her 70s ----- or something along those lines. Murder doesn't have a statue of limitations. If a person is caught 20 years later for having done a murder back in 1988, you better believe that person is going away for life or getting the death sentence depending on where they are. However seeing how many women have had her baby murdered, and some on multiple occasions, it would be impractical to send away hundreds of thousands or millions of women going to prison. For one prisons are already over crowded so where would the be put. I guess the best idea would be to have it be illegal the day it is passed. So from that day forward any doctor who is attempting to perform or performing an abortion would go to jail for a very long time. Same for the woman seeking one or in the middle of one.

ddave12000 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:12:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: ddave12000 I'm sure the story is more complicated overall than I'm making it, but I'm pretty sure that Scott Peterson was convicted of killing both his wife and unborn child. I always wondered why would he even be charged with the crime of murdering his child when women do it every day legally? I figured it was something like that. I guess it makes sense from the current law's perspective. I generally stay out of these discussions, but since the question was raised.... The Peterson baby was judged to be a full term infant based on the remains that were examined. As such, legally it would have been infanticide aka murder. That's the legal reasoning for the dual conviction.

Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:17:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... John And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wayward1 I'm sorry. What is "complictly"? I am sorry, complicity... quote: But my friend it is you and not I who would have the lines blurred regarding whether or not assassination is to be regarded as murder. If we do not reserve a special place in our hearts (and prisons) for the concept of MURDER, then we are going down a slippery slope. It is understood by all that murder is committed by one person against A SEPARATE person. People who pay someone to murder another person are tried for murder as well... The only slippery slope here is the one where killing the unborn is somehow not murder... quote: You can advocate inception of a criminal charge to be levied against women who elect to abort and I think you can make a good argument. It stands to reason that we should punish young mothers who would abort their pregnancy for selfish reasons. Perhaps even a short jail term could be in order to give them time to reevaluate their priorities, but if we lump them in with common murderers we have eviscerated the charge of murder to at least some small degree. Why? Because you elect to call them young mothers and not somone who paid another person to murder the child inside of them? quote: Let me phrase this differently. I hate to invoke such imagery but imagine your own child is murdered by a stranger. Do you want him considered guilty of only the same crime as a mother who had an abortion? I hardly think it sounds fair. I believe it's worse for a mother to kill her own child... Yet both are the unlawful taking of life, therefore murder... quote: I'm sorry. What does "what is there to between the person and God in the first place" mean? If abortion isn't murder what sin is the person committing that they have to speak to God about? You say abortion isn't murder, its something less... What sin is it that a person would have to answer to God for? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... John And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics. I believe we all know this... So your point? John

Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:20:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... John And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics. I believe we all know this... So your point? John Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:32:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... John And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics. I believe we all know this... So your point? John Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue. Of course they are not, though someone made the point that all are guilty... John

wayward1 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/16/2008 11:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Why? Because you elect to call them young mothers and not somone who paid another person to murder the child inside of them? I'm not denying the parallels you're drawing. I'm imploring you to conduct a thought experiment where you lose a child to both horrible fates. To do this you must imagine yourself a father of a beautiful 4 year old girl. She is the light of your life. Imagine also that your wife is pregnant. Again, I regret to have to draw such ugly images but imagine your child is killed by another person. She is gone. Now here's the tricky part. I need you to also imagine that by some strange turn of events your wife elects to abort her pregnancy without your knowledge. Perhaps it is revealed to her in a dream that a horrible fate will befall the child if it is allowed to be born, whatever it takes, imagine it that way. The example requires that it be your wife, however unlikely she would be to get an abortion, because if you're not willing to condemn your own wife then you shouldn't be willing to condemn anyone. Is your wife as guilty of murder as the man who murdered your 4 year old girl. She had her reasons, and to her they were valid. Do you find yourself to be in a position to judge her absolutely for her decision with no ability to carry a child yourself. I do not. quote: Yet both are the unlawful taking of life, therefore murder... On some levels I actually agree. It is worse, but it is not murder in her case, not to the legal system anyway. Perhaps this is one of many reasons the faithful fear the legal system. I'm learning. Thank you. quote: If abortion isn't murder what sin is the person committing that they have to speak to God about? You say abortion isn't murder, its something less... What sin is it that a person would have to answer to God for? John She will be guilty of early termination of a "pregnancy". Perhaps review of the definition of "pregnant" is in order. When someone is pregnant a child is forthcoming. It is not here. When someone makes a "pregnant pause" in a speech, their words have not been heard. They are forthcoming. When a woman is pregnant a person is forthcoming. He or she is not here. Just because we know what will come of the pregnancy, that does not give us the right to regard every intermediate stage of the pregnancy as being "worthy of the same rights as a born child". We also know what will come of sex but we don't regard contraception as murder. Until mother and child are two, mother is one, and therefore able to decide for herself. You can go to your grave hating her for her decision, but you will never have the right to condemn her for it. This is the beauty of modernity. Our individual opinions of each other's actions stop being grounds for condemnation of one another. I agree with you on almost every account and I am anti-abortion. It's just that I'm a man, and men should quite frankly step aside on this one and let the ladies sort it out for themselves.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/17/2008 12:07:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wayward1 I'm not denying the parallels you're drawing. I'm imploring you to conduct a thought experiment where you lose a child to both horrible fates. To do this you must imagine yourself a father of a beautiful 4 year old girl. She is the light of your life. Imagine also that your wife is pregnant. Again, I regret to have to draw such ugly images but imagine your child is killed by another person. She is gone. Now here's the tricky part. I need you to also imagine that by some strange turn of events your wife elects to abort her pregnancy without your knowledge. Perhaps it is revealed to her in a dream that a horrible fate will befall the child if it is allowed to be born, whatever it takes, imagine it that way. The example requires that it be your wife, however unlikely she would be to get an abortion, because if you're not willing to condemn your own wife then you shouldn't be willing to condemn anyone. Is your wife as guilty of murder as the man who murdered your 4 year old girl. She had her reasons, and to her they were valid. Do you find yourself to be in a position to judge her absolutely for her decision with no ability to carry a child yourself. I do not. Given the level of betrayal I would hold my wife more accountable and she would be no less guilty... The fact that I can't carry a child has no bearing on what is right and wrong... quote: On some levels I actually agree. It is worse, but it is not murder in her case, not to the legal system anyway. Perhaps this is one of many reasons the faithful fear the legal system. I'm learning. Thank you. Sorry, I don't base right and wrong on what man says is legal... quote: She will be guilty of early termination of a "pregnancy". Perhaps review of the definition of "pregnant" is in order. When someone is pregnant a child is forthcoming. It is not here. When someone makes a "pregnant pause" in a speech, their words have not been heard. They are forthcoming. When a woman is pregnant a person is forthcoming. He or she is not here. Just because we know what will come of the pregnancy, that does not give us the right to regard every intermediate stage of the pregnancy as being "worthy of the same rights as a born child". We also know what will come of sex but we don't regard contraception as murder. Until mother and child are two, mother is one, and therefore able to decide for herself. That might fly in secular land... quote: You can go to your grave hating her for her decision, but you will never have the right to condemn her for it. I don't hate anyone and what comdemns those who murder the unborn is their actions... quote: This is the beauty of modernity. Our opinions of each other's actions stop being grounds for condemnation of one another. I agree with you on almost every account and I am anti-abortion. It's just that I'm a man, and men should quite frankly step aside on this one and let the ladies sort it out for themselves. How many ladies would it take to sort out 50,000,000 dead unborn child? Btw... Point to ponder... One can't serve two masters... John

Roberta_ -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/17/2008 12:22:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder. Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father... John And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics. I believe we all know this... So your point? John Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue. Of course they are not, though someone made the point that all are guilty... John In many abortion cases these men were guilty of premarital sex, adultery or rape..... or maybe a combination.

wayward1 -> RE: If Abortion is Murder (7/17/2008 12:36:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Given the level of betrayal I would hold my wife more accountable and she would be no less guilty... The fact that I can't carry a child has no bearing on what is right and wrong... What does whether she betrayed you have to do with whether or not she is guilty of murder? And the fact that you can't carry a child certainly doesn't have any bearing on what is right or wrong, but it has bearing on how loudly your voice should be heard, or how weighted your vote should be for the simple fact that you can never ever have the frame of reference needed to empathize with a mother. quote: Sorry, I don't base right and wrong on what man says is legal... Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't. quote: That might fly in secular land... True, and it's secular land that makes to rules isn't it? quote: ...what comdemns those who murder the unborn is their actions... Then what is the need for you to consider them guilty of murder at all? quote: How many ladies would it take to sort out 50,000,000 dead unborn child? I'm not sure I follow you. This is suggestive of a misogynistic attitude. Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you are suggesting women would be unwilling or unable to accurately assess the situation and deal with it.

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