RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (Full Version)

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sunofone -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/15/2008 3:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThursdaysChild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Regarding the lack of concensus on the Scriptures, there is a long standing Jewish saying, "When two rabbis discuss the Scriptures, there are three opinions." This saying applies to all discussions of the Scriptures.


[:D] I love that!

That is most certainly true.


At the same time, it should be noted that rabbis debating the fine points of the Torah are a far cry from Christians being taught by the Holy Spirit so that they are of one heart, one soul and one mind. Scripture says that we have the mind of Christ, and there is no discord in the Godhead.

When Christ walked this earth, He said little about the rabbinic schools which He fully knew about. Instead He spoke the words of Spirit and Life with authority. The apostles, likewise, did not debate the fine points of Christian truth. They proclaimed with authority the teachings given to them by Christ, and they expounded on the OT without error, since the Holy Spirit was their Teacher.

Today many Christians think that endless debate is called for. That is certainly not the case, since Paul teaches by the Holy Spirit that it is unprofitable.

Ezra your spirit of certainty is admirable.I think everyone here can accept and agree with the spirit of your conviction.

There is however a problem that many here have spoke to, including the op and that is each of us are accountable to God individually,for our understanding/application of his word.

None of us,including you are Paul,or a New Testament writer,although each of us who belong to God has the same spirit that Paul had,none of us has the level of clarity they had.We therefore strive as best we can to understand what God was/is saying through the writers.

Add to this the importance of language,and even the proper use/understanding of words,and their proper tense.The fact that we read from a translated text that often times approximates the value or intent of a word that was used by the writer of the text, into English, often times when their is no English equivalence, makes our task of unity of belief that much more difficult.

We then have to take into account context which involves familiarizing oneself with history/culture.What the writer may have been thinking or addressing.what he intended to convey and why.What statements/words would have been commonly understood at the time,all goes into helping us understand the intent behind what was spoken.

We have to keep in mind also that by and large the New Testament is made up of epistles or letters written to specific groups of people,addressing specific concerns.For this reason we have to in many cases apply what was said to our specific concerns.

We then find ourselves confronted with asking the hard questions such as what is God saying,that is what is the specific interpretation.We then must find a way to take a specific interpretation and apply it to our everyday lives.

This is what I believe the OP addresses.Are we at liberty to do this.Does God through his Spirit allow us to apply the scriptures differently to a man.I believe an argument can be made from scripture that he does,in fact in many cases I believe the scriptures are purposely open ended as discussed in my OP titled as such,as well as my OP titled do we know more than the Apostles.

The Spirit of God does in fact teach us all things,and since the teaching never ceases,we are constantly coming into a better clearer awareness of what God is saying.That being the case it is impossible that all of us will arrive at precisely the same time.

That is we will most certainly see things differently as that is the best any of us can do,is see what we can see.I believe it is even possible to see totally contradicting things and both be right.As sometimes and in many cases it's not either or but both and then some.

I don't think any of us should enroll at the school of Ezra,or Steve in order to get all of our doctrine just right/We all have to enroll at the school of the Holy Spirit and allow him to teach us and bring us into all truth.

We're all one, even though we see things differently.We are God's children and he is responsible for leading us to himself and he is capable of doing just that.

I agree with you on our vain attempts at debating with one another like children sparring,except we do it with scriptures and we often times do it with deadly intent.

There is no need/use for this as only God can reveal God to man.We need to relax and take a chill pill,and spend our time fighting the enemy of our soul and the souls of the lost and not with each other;but I know these words will fall on deaf ears as we have convinced ourselves that we fight for God's integrity and his word even against each other.

The fight with our brother has become synonymous with the fight of the enemy.I suppose this too must be revealed to us as well.



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/15/2008 3:48:31 PM)

Well stated, sunofone! For whatever part I have played in this "fight", intentionally or not, I apologize and withdraw.



Shrommer -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/16/2008 10:50:40 AM)

This is a great question!

I think of two different questions here. One is "Can there be more than one godly interpretation of a Scripture passage?" And the other is, "When there is more than one interpretation of a passage, can the Holy Spirit be leading us to both, even when they are contradictory?" And I guess that there is even a third and maybe fourth question when we discuss "applications" of the Scriptures versus simply "interpretations" of the Scriptures.

My first thought on this topic is that our relationship with the Holy Spirit is a relationship, just as our relationship with the Biblical writers is a relationship. In any relationship, there are at least two parties, and in any communication there is the sending of a message and the receiving of it. The Holy Spirit must not only be relied on as the One who inspired the writing of the Scriptures, but He must also be relied upon as the one who must illuminate the Scriptures to the reader. So, to answer if the Holy Spirit can be leading us to two different applications of the Scriptures, I like to think that initially the differences are due to the differences in the ones being led, and not to the one doing the leading. We often just misunderstand the message, and attribute our misunderstanding to the Holy Spirit.

That said, it is very normal to think that the shepherd would have to give different instructions to different sheep in accordance with where each sheep is at a given moment. One sheep may need to go up the mountain to get to the path, and another may need to come down the mountain. This doesn't mean that there is more than one path, but it does mean that for sheep who are not on the path, there could be different applications of the words "Get on the path".

The Holy Spirit sometimes gives us a Scripture to act on, just as He might use any word from our surroundings as a sign. In these cases, the application of a Scripture is not based on the meaning of the Scripture, but just on the leading of the Holy Spirit. For instance, someone may read Ezekiel 5:1-2 just asking the Holy Spirit for direction, and it turns out that they need to construct a mural (a scroll) high up on the side of the building (flying) about thirty feet long and fifteen feet wide. This doesn't mean that everybody should be making the same mural, but the Holy Spirit could have used Exekiel 5:1-2 to speak a specific word to the person. Then again, it could be that someone reads something in a newspaper or a fiction novel, and the Holy Spirit uses that to give the person direction also. It wouldn't need to be from the Bible in these cases, but it often is.

In light of this, someone could hear from the Holy Spirit to wear a head covering because of what they read in the Bible, and the person acts in faith and obedience, whereas another person did not hear from the Holy Spirit to wear a head covering when they read the same passage. It is not that the Word of God has more than one interpretation here, but simply that the Holy Spirit is leading each person to their next step of faith according to the person's need. Yes, the Holy Spirit can tell different people to do different things, depending on temperaments, giftings, circumstances. background of the person, etc. And yes, the Holy Spirit can use the same passage as a springboard to tell two different people two different things. The people in these instances are not applying the Word of God so much as they are acting on the voice of the Holy Spirit.

The other major factor here is our minds. There is more than one godly way to use our minds to read the Bible, and more than one godly application for a given Scripture, and there can even be multiple meanings to the same Scripture, as we see in Paul's use of the Old Testament. As we learn and grow mentally - in knowledge and intellectual skill - we will see things in the Scriptures in different lights and even find new different applications.

The key verse I look at for this is: Romans 14:5-6 "Some of the Lord's followers think one day is more important than another. Others think all days are the same. Let each one of you be fully convinced in his or her own mind. Any followers who count one day more important than another day do it to honor their Lord. And any followers who eat meat give thanks to God, just like the ones who don't eat meat." Could one man's idea from reading the Bible be that we should celebrate certain holidays? Yes. And if they do so to honor God, that is good. But someone else may read the Bible and decide that we should not celebrate holidays, and if they do so to honor God, this is also good.

Then we see Romans 14:23 and James 4:17.

A great book I recommend for Bible reading in the proper light is The Scripture Principle, by Clark Pinnock and Barry (last name?). It uses some university level vocabulary, but makes a lot of sense.



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/16/2008 11:41:22 AM)

quote:

The key verse I look at for this is: Romans 14:5-6 "Some of the Lord's followers think one day is more important than another. Others think all days are the same. Let each one of you be fully convinced in his or her own mind. Any followers who count one day more important than another day do it to honor their Lord. And any followers who eat meat give thanks to God, just like the ones who don't eat meat." Could one man's idea from reading the Bible be that we should celebrate certain holidays? Yes. And if they do so to honor God, that is good. But someone else may read the Bible and decide that we should not celebrate holidays, and if they do so to honor God, this is also good.
This makes a lot of sense in my mind, Schrommer. But I'm still a bit fuzzy on the difference between "interpretation" and "application". If two Spirit-led Christians claim to interpret the same passage in the same way, but apply it differently in their daily life, is their interpretation truly similar?



GroupW -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/16/2008 12:43:07 PM)

drmark-
You asked shrommer the question and not me, but I've never let that stop me from opining before [:D].

Yes, I think it's very possible to have exactly the same interpretation of a passage but arrive at different applications. In fact, I think it happens nearly every day just on Crosswalk.

Example: 1 Thess 5:22 tells us to "avoid every form of evil" (Note that the KJV translates this as avoid all appearance of evil. While that translation is possible, the weight of the evidence in usage would suppport the idea of "form of evil" as opposed to the mere appearance thereof.)

The interpretation is clear, yet two people can differ on whether or not a particular thing is indeed a form of evil. Alcohol is a great case in point. Just surf through the alchohol threads here on CW and witness the grand variety of viewpoints on the topic.

Second example: imagine a set of circumstances that involve opposing principles. Let's imagine an abusive marriage. Not so abusive as to jeopardize the life and health of either of the partners in the marriage, but bad enough to be serious. Should the couple separate for a time? Pick any of the passages that seek to uphold the ideal of marriage. Offsetting those passages, one can look at other passages regarding the discipline of a believer, responsibilities that one has to one's children, responsibilities not to condone evil, etc. We might agree on the basic interpretation of each individual passage, yet when faced with a set of circumstances that place those passages in juxtaposition with other passages, how we balance all of the various principles involved will be highly subjective and lead different people to different applications.

Third example: what happens when a specific circumstance "falls through the cracks" in scripture - i.e. there is no direct reference in the bible from which to draw an interpretation or an application. Let's take the example of a legal separation like the above. The bible doesn't directly address the issue of temporary separations in this case. Applications would have to be extrapolated from the indirect references. That leaves an opening for opinion and subjectivity even where strict interpretations are in agreement.

My opinion - now Shrommer can answer you [:D]



sunofone -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/16/2008 1:46:08 PM)

I am so proud of these last few replies.They have been thought provoking and informative.Most importantly they have conveyed the spirit of humility and wisdom that comes from above.

I'm happy to see this thread move in it's current direction.



chasmarv -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 8:53:10 AM)

The holy spirit does not lead us to different understandings of the bible. we fail to read the bible
and in lieu of, allow the church pastors and others to lead us. The new testament teaches
free will giving under grace and many churches teach tithing or legalism which is
teaching heresy. after Jesus was crucified the old covenant was history.
The old covenant was for the state of Israel only not the gentiles. Read Hebrews chapter
8 verses 6-13.



Shrommer -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 10:28:06 AM)

Interpretation is "What does the passage mean? What did the writer intend, and what did the original listeners or readers understand?"

Application is "What does this mean in my/our life? What should I/we do differently or how should I/we think differently because this passage is in the Bible, compared to if it weren't?"

With the issue of head coverings, two people could agree on the meaning of the passage, yet as far as application goes, one decides that it applies to every culture while another decides that it was culture-specific.

Many differences in interpretation can also lead to different applications. For instance, one person may think that to cover the head meant to have some piece of cloth on top of the head, while another may think it meant to have all of the hair hidden from view. What did Paul have in mind when he wrote it, and what did the Corinthians understand? However, someone may think that the interpretation of the passage was to hide all the hair from view, while deciding that the application for them is only going to be to have a piece of cloth on top of the head.

Simpler examples are things like when David poured out on the ground the water that his mighty men had risked their lives for. We can interpret what David did and why he did it, but then we have to ask about application. Is this an example that God wants me to follow? If so, to what extent or in what way? Do any situations in my life now compare to this situation David was in? Was David acting out of line from God's will? If so, what things about David's behavior should I be guarding against? One person may think that she is in a similar situation to David's because of A and B, while another person might point out that she is in a different situation because of C and D. Even when the story that the Bible is telling is very clear (interpretation), the will of God for the New Testament believer is not always so easy to discern from the story.

The book of Hebrews is profound in taking many Scriptures from the Old Testament, then enlightening us as to how they can be interpreted in light of the New Testament, and then instructing us about how we should apply that in our lives today.

I wish I had taken a class in hermeneutics to tell you about the meaning of the word "hermeneutics", but I think that what we are discussing here could be best answered by someone who had such a course.



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 10:39:24 AM)

quote:

Yes, I think it's very possible to have exactly the same interpretation of a passage but arrive at different applications. In fact, I think it happens nearly every day just on Crosswalk.

quote:

Interpretation is "What does the passage mean? What did the writer intend, and what did the original listeners or readers understand?"

Application is "What does this mean in my life? What should I do differently or how should I act differently because this passage is in the Bible, compared to if it weren't?"
Thanks, GroupW and Schrommer for your explanations. It seems I am too concrete to fully grasp the distinctions you two are making. The issue centers on the influence of the Holy Spirit in our approach to Scripture. Mere intellectual assent to the correct meaning of a passage is essentially worthless without proper application to our individual lives, IMO. If the HS is required for correct interpretation, then the HS is required for proper application. Thus, two God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians may indeed follow Scripture in two different, but equally godly ways.



Shrommer -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 10:41:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chasmarv

The holy spirit does not lead us to different understandings of the bible. we fail to read the bible
and in lieu of, allow the church pastors and others to lead us. The new testament teaches
free will giving under grace and many churches teach tithing or legalism which is
teaching heresy. after Jesus was crucified the old covenant was history.
The old covenant was for the state of Israel only not the gentiles. Read Hebrews chapter
8 verses 6-13.


Tithing, to be acceptable worship to God, should be done freely and cheerfully, not because of legalism. We should bear apples because we are apple trees, and the fruit comes from the inside of us. When tithing does not come from the inside, it is like trying to tell an orange tree (or an apple tree out of season) that it needs to bear apples, and then someone goes and glues apples onto the branches to fulfill the obligation.



Shrommer -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 10:46:16 AM)

In looking for the passage about head coverings, I ran across I Corinthians 12. Verses 5 and 6 read in the Contemporary English version: "There are different ways to serve the same Lord, and we can each do different things. Yet the same God works in all of us and helps us in everything we do."



LBolt -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 11:36:09 AM)

In keeping with the OP, I think our interpretations are influenced by our cultural and denominational affliliations. Take our differing views of whether or not are there prophets and apostles today? Sabbath or no Sabbath teachings, speaking in tongues or cessation of it.

The very reason we have denominationalism is because there is a difference in the way wwe see scripture and apply scripture. I don't think it was intended to be this way. John 17, tells us differently. Truthfully, we are influenced by tradition whether good or bad. Things changed drastically after AD 70 and AD 120. Especially during the reign of Constantine and the rise of the RCC. I have to go now but will expound later.

In Jerusalem today, we have an interesting situation at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, where Messiah was supposedly crucified at. The church there is divided into various sections because of denominationalism. I hear it is so bad that there has to be a muslim overseer with keys to the church so that others groups don't lock each other out!

We have a group of us who study the scriptures Hebraically and therefore it leds us to practice certain things the mainstream considers outdated. We believe wholehearted the Ruach is leading us others really believe they the Ruach is leading them. I know because I used to believe that way and felt led of the Holy Spirit. I tend to believe that it is a matter of things being restored in God's timing and leading. He's mysteriously working in and through us bringing us all to a common destination.

We have truth in degrees and levels and He allows us to grow as He sees fit.



sunofone -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 11:41:05 AM)

I can just sense the Spirit of God all over this topic and hope that all will continue to seek his counsel on this topic.In fact I pray that God would bless each of us our understanding as it relates to this topic.



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 11:49:48 AM)

quote:

In keeping with the OP, I think our interpretations are influenced by our cultural and denominational affliliations.
So how does that relate to the "application" issue in your opinion, LBolt? Is not the Holy Spirit magisterial to human affiliations?



LBolt -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/17/2008 1:00:02 PM)

I think it relates to application aspect in that what you believe, you do. What you are influenced by, inherently shapes one's perception. Yes He operates in human institions but remember we are supposed to be in a Kingdom governed by the precepts and laws of that Kingdom. How one interprets the Laws of the Kingdom is directly related to how one walks in that Kingdom. We do know according to Matthew that there will be those in that same Kingdom considered 'great' and some will be considered 'least due to application and teaching.

When I was in the Baptist denomination, I found scriptures that validated OSAS when I was a Pentecostal I found scriptures that dispoved OSAS. Because of my denominational affliation, I walked a certain way.

Culturally speaking, most of us are Hellenistic and western in our thinking. Our concept of Kingdom is very different than a person in a monarchial society. We think differently. We are more linear in our thought processes where as hebraics is more circular. We tend to have to have a rational answer for every thing and when we come into what seems to be a contradiction or paradox, it tends to unravel us. Hebraic thinking tends to conclude that Elohim is Sovereign and His ways are past searching out. This is a small taste of the difference and probably not even a good explanation of it.

Some of us are hip hop in our thinking and certain attitudes and values are incorporated into Christiandom. We rap christian hip-hop , wear saggy pants... because of the culture. Our lives are supposed to be a continual everyday conforming to the mind of Elohim and it is a process...ongoing process.



GroupW -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/18/2008 12:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Mere intellectual assent to the correct meaning of a passage is essentially worthless without proper application to our individual lives, IMO.


Absolutely, to the best of our ability.



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/18/2008 9:38:00 AM)

To the best of our ability in Christ!



GroupW -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/18/2008 7:16:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

To the best of our ability in Christ!


Naturally. I just tend to focus on my part of the equation, though, and trust that Christ will do his.

One of the problems with being a natural type A personality ;)



BibleL7 -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/18/2008 11:25:30 PM)

Possible to have different applications of Scripture though usually not a matter of interpretation. The Spirit will lead in accordance with His will. Now on some posts and discussions here it is not a matter of Holy Spirit leading or difference in understand of Scripture as it is a matter of not including all of Scripture in context. Example of head covering for women is more that nobody seems to want to read on in Scripture that it is stated if contentions should arise that we have no such custom nor does the rest of the Church. Many doctrines of tradition are simply a part of taking some verses out of context. In doing so and following that method I could argue that the Scriptures teach that I should lye in wait and rob and kill people and say it is in Scripture and that is what those verses tell me to do. If I were to say this then someone would immediately say that is out of context yet they have no problem doing the same with other scriptures.

Many situations in life we have no mention of in Scripture so we need to look at the principles in Scripture that we do have and see how they fit, remembering to include all Scriptures and context of each and every Scripture. Also with the marriage scripture example there is the Scripture that states that God hates divorce. Remember that though the Lord did permit divorce under certain circumstance He did not say it was necessary to divorce under these circumstances. Very different.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/20/2008 7:32:28 AM)

I believe have a tendency to believe that there are two uses for scripture... First, there is the literal "plain sense" meaning of scripture where Moses literally goes up a literal mountain and literally saw God.

Secondly, there is an "applied meaning" if you will where from the same passage you can take away the lesson that you must seperate yourself from your comfortable surroundings (be they cultural or w/e) if you expect a deep encounter with God.

What are the main differences? For the first method of scripture (the literal one), the biggest arguments arise due to a lack of scholarship or differing schools of thought. For example, some believe that a proper hermaneutic of the book of Revelation is that it is very literal and describes future events, while a different hermaneutic says that it is allegorical and covers the whole history of mankind. That is a difference of hermaneutics and can be/should be able to be resolved at some point. Then there are lack of scholarship issues such as the already mentioned passage in 1st Corinthians where we neglect to mention the historical/cultural context into which the book was written, and thus, fail to derive the exact meaning of what Paul was saying. These should be able to be resolved relatively easily AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN ISSUES OF SCHOLARSHIP ONLY.

The second method (the parabolic/spiritual one, if you will) is dependent largely on illumination of a passage by the Holy Spirit. Usually this involves a direct revelation to the heart inspiring awe and deeper love of God. An example of this would be studying the crucifixion of Christ and having God highlight the verse where Jesus tells the disciples "My yoke is easy and burden is light", destroying your emotional walls and you break down weeping. A little dramatic, but its a real life example for me. If these disagree, they are impossible to resolve because (A) there is so much emotion involved and (B) it involves the interior life... which cannot be tested or verified to "acceptable" scholarship standards.

A Seminary student friend and I were discussing personality types (Myers-Briggs, let the reader understand) and religious tendencies, and he made this statement... "Evangelicalism is the S(ensing)-T(hinking) religion. Charismata is more natural for the F(eeling)-P(erceiving) type of people."

Hope that helps a little.

Adam



drmark -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/20/2008 8:55:48 AM)

quote:

For the first method of scripture (the literal one), the biggest arguments arise due to a lack of scholarship or differing schools of thought.
Quite right and this article on the History of Biblical Interpretation points out many of the differences over the centuries.



Shrommer -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/21/2008 8:15:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

... Now on some posts and discussions here it is not a matter of Holy Spirit leading or difference in understand of Scripture as it is a matter of not including all of Scripture in context. Example of head covering for women is more that nobody seems to want to read on in Scripture that it is stated if contentions should arise that we have no such custom nor does the rest of the Church. Many doctrines of tradition are simply a part of taking some verses out of context. ... Also with the marriage scripture example there is the Scripture that states that God hates divorce. Remember that though the Lord did permit divorce under certain circumstance He did not say it was necessary to divorce under these circumstances. Very different.


I never read in any translation the idea that "if contentions should arise, we have no such custom" as head coverings. I've always read the effect of "if contentions should arise, we have no other custom" other than head coverings. Where do you get that reading from? Is this yet another good example of how the words in the Greek can be interpreted more than one possible way in English?

As far as divorce, you make a very good point there. Many times we read into a passage multiple interpretations, whereas really we are just using fuzzy thinking. Many people who, along with God, hate divorce, end up divorcing anyway, just as God who hates divorce ends up allowing divorce anyway.



DaveW -> RE: Does the Holy Spirit lead us to different Interpretations of scripture? (7/21/2008 10:31:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chasmarv

The holy spirit does not lead us to different understandings of the bible.
Says who? Chapter and verse please.



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