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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/14/2008 6:43:39 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
If the man saw the sign that read "Mike's Lemonade", ordered one, and just handed the bottle over to his son without looking at it (who would?) then it is definitely within the realm of possibility that this was just an innocent mistake.
I could have very easily made this mistake. I have never heard of Mike's Lemonade.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/14/2008 9:23:20 PM
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pbaribeault
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Well, I'd rather they investigate, and do a good job of a bunch of false situations than that they overlook true ones. False accusations are a big deal and extremely hard on the not-abusing family and child. But if that's what it takes to get the 'other side of the coin' to see good investigations yield fruit in situations of real abuse... then that sounds OK to me.
If mistakes are going to be made (and they are) I'd rather hear, "I'm sorry, sir." to a not-abusive father than, "I'm sorry, son." to a child that was never rescued. (I guess there's an, "I'm sorry, son" in the non-abuse situation too, for being removed during the investigation, but that's not the same degree of trauma as the child who we fail to protect.)
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/14/2008 11:03:37 PM
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sen10tious
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
But if that's what it takes to get the 'other side of the coin' to see good investigations yield fruit in situations of real abuse... then that sounds OK to me.
Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
I guess thou wilt.
"but that's not the same degree of trauma as the child who we fail to protect"
You cannot know such a thing. You cannot adequately judge whose trauma is greater. Wrenching a child from an innocent parent with a court order is far more violent than you can conceive. Their integrity has been raped.
CPS uses fear as a weapon. I find that to be diabolical.
Hurting and traumatizing an innocent person is abusive no matter what their age or status. And you know what? Come Judgment day God isn't going to settle for lame excuses.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 7:23:20 AM
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Sunnymom
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No- we cannot say that it's worth it to abuse innocent families in order to catch the guilty ones.
Here's a thought- there are several factors that are associated with child abuse and neglect- Parents and caregivers who themselves were abused, "low self-esteem, poor impulse control, aggressiveness, anxiety, depression," poverty, and children who were born premature, have irritable temperament, or are girls are more likely to experience abuse. So let's round up all the folks that fit this description and monitor them, since it is much more likely that they will abuse their children than the general population. After all, if it saves one child...
Raise your hand in here if you or your children would fit one or more of these categories. 
The problem with this case is that probable innocence was established, and there were other ways they could have handled the situation that involved common sense and compassion for the child and family. There is a reason why we presume innocence in this country, and the only exception seems to be when there is a child involved.
BTW, did CPS help this family? Or this one?
Or these boys?
quote:
N.J. STARVING BOYS CASE PROMPTS FIRINGS
by John P. McAlpin, Associated Press Writer (10-27-03)
TRENTON, N.J. - The body of a 7-year-old boy found in a box in a Newark basement nearly a year ago prompted a shake-up at New Jersey's child welfare agency. The agency reviewed all open cases, hired 366 more employees and received $30 million in emergency aid.
Despite those changes, four adopted boys -- one of them 19 -- were found earlier this month malnourished and weighing less than 50 pounds each. Their adoptive parents [Raymond and Vanessa Jackson] were charged last week with starving them, and on Monday, nine child welfare employees were fired and the state announced another review of recently compiled safety assessments of children in state care.
Social workers had visited the boys' house in Collingswood as many as 38 times in two years, state officials said. Some of those visits had been ordered of all children in state care after the Newark death last January.
I'd be much more supportive of CPS programs if they were more effective, but the system is overburdened and out-of-whack, ignoring real instances of danger to pursue anonymous reports of kids not being allowed to drink milk.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 10:58:14 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1041
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Granted.
The system is broken.
But, working with a broken system, I really prefer the "innocent family disturbed for a week" stories to the "starved to death" stories. Therefore I really wish they would investigate everything well, with consistent standards and diligence. That's the right thing to do. Overlooking is the wrong thing to do.
That's why I think it was the right thing to do, when even contrary to common sense, they properly investigated the case of the boy with the lemonade.
If we prefer use of "common sense" to split up which cases really need diligence, and which ones are OK to ignore, then we've given them a lot more personal power. A lot of front line decisions rather than judgments by judges. A lot of jumping to conclusions, a lot of bias and just a lot more ignoring in general -- that's what we make OK when we say that we wish they'd left this family alone.
quote:
"but that's not the same degree of trauma as the child who we fail to protect"
You cannot know such a thing. You cannot adequately judge whose trauma is greater. Wrenching a child from an innocent parent with a court order is far more violent than you can conceive. Their integrity has been raped.
And I think that anybody can tell the difference in degree of trauma between, say the actual rape of a young girl and the "raping of integrity" of a removal due to over-caution. I really would have 100 boys and girls crying themself to sleep in custody for 2 nights than have one girl raped one more time after her step dad was reported to be suspicious... much less that she should be raped weekly until she runs away at 14 and becomes a prostitute.
I have not experienced either trauma, so I suppose I can't imagine how the act feels, but I do think that the difference in degree of trauma is clear.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 11:00:20 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6958
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Granted.
The system is broken.
But, working with a broken system, I really prefer the "innocent family disturbed for a week" stories to the "starved to death" stories. Therefore I really wish they would investigate everything well, with consistent standards and diligence. That's the right thing to do. Overlooking is the wrong thing to do.
Well, for at least the last 20 years, both have been going on.
quote:
I have not experienced either trauma, so I suppose I can't imagine how the act feels, but I do think that the difference in degree of trauma is clear.
I have. It's not easy to put your family back together again.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 11:52:33 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8758
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From: land of limbo
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pbaribeault
How would your child deal with being taken from you for several days with no contact with anyone they know if you hadn't been abusive.
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 12:13:47 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1041
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I'd be bothered, upset, hurt... emotionally distraught, possibly even incapacitated.
But I wouldn't consider it wrong. Even if I initially felt that way, I would very shortly find calm and strength in the fact that I believe all allegations should be taken seriously, even against me. It is not an injustice to be investigated for a complaint. It's traumatic, but it is the ethically correct thing for a good society to do. This perspective would make me feel calm, strong and not alone.
I'd stick up for myself and make a fuss, contact everybody, sit-in at the office, takl to the supervisor, try to see the judge, bring coffee to anybody who might help things go faster. I'd probably consider seeing a lawyer for information etc. on the 2nd or 3rd day. I'd make my objections known in writing, verbally and any other way that might have an effect.
With the investigation, I'd be scrupulously honest, co-operative, not combative, not blaming the people who are motivated to save my child from any danger, and who have reason to suspect I might be dangerous. I'd help the investigator find the people they wanted to speak to more quickly and make calls to reassure people that I'd appreciate their co-operation and honesty.
I'd be researching the effects of trauma and finding out the best ways to help my child recover from the experience. I'd write my child letters and make copies, hoping one might be delivered, and saving the others to read to her when she gets home.
I'd pray like crazy and immerse myself in audio Bible. I'd probably fast... unless they only took one child, then I would not, so that I could be successfully focused on parenting the other child through a difficult time, without the added fuss of explaining why I wasn't eating.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 12:16:01 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6958
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From: East Bay Area
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^ spoken like a person who has not had to deal with the trauma of CPS!
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 12:39:52 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1041
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^ Fair enough...
But all those "What would you do?" questions are that way. And I do have an oddly calculating, practical sort of detached response to many of the emotionally difficult situations that I have faced. And I have faced a few.
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RE: What you don't know can hurt you - 7/15/2008 3:37:51 PM
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reach
Posts: 1364
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When my nephew was taken by CPS, he was taken on a Friday. He was supposed to be in observation for 48 hours, but according to the "rules" Sat & Sun don't count. So he was there Fri-Tues. It was very tramatic for him. He went back 6 months in his maturity. He was 2 1/2.
He was not allowed to go home with me & my parents (his grandparents) because we could not get set up as a Foster parent quick enough. My Mom almost got arrested, because we had taken him to the Dr, to report it, and then they would not let him go home with her. (which is what we tought) So when the police came, my mom was screaming, etc about them taking him to a strange place. It is very, very dumb, that the child cannot go to a responsible relative. That way it would not be as traumatic on the child.
When we went to visit him, he was given this dark room in the back of the house. He had none of his own stuff. Then I was even more horrified, because it was a man that stayed home with the kids. But there was nothing we can do. He is 16 and really is still afraid of the dark. I beleive it is from this experience. They also gave him this blanket, and it was very hard to remove the blanket from him as he got older. It was the only security he had during those 5 days. It is really had to say how much damage was really done, as he was so young.
I wanted my nephew out of my sister's house, but the trauma of working with CPS was awful at first. After we were set up in the system, we had a good relationship with our case manager. But we were not being accused of anything.
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