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RE: Guns for God. - 7/27/2008 5:21:35 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. You do believe that Jesus is God and that He was with God from the beginning and that He is with God now, right? Because if you do, you can't just look at 3 years of His ministry on earth and say that all other Scripture is wrong because the way you personally have interpreted those few verses can only mean one thing and all other interpretations that look at ALL of Scripture are wrong.
You see, ALL Scripture is God breathed (remember Paul saying that - and he was actually referring to the OT). God didn't change when Jesus came to earth. When God tells us there is a time to kill... a time for war... He didn't change His mind (Ecclesiastes 3). When God tells us that He instituted government wield the sword and punish evildoers, He wasn't saying law enforcers are supposed to nicely ask people to go walk themselves to jail because they were bad (Romans 13:1-6).
The Early Church Thankfully rejects half of what you just said. Have you done your history checks? I can go through Origen, Turtullian, Justin Martyr and a select few others who would fight you on this subject.
Alright I noticed you are doing the switcharoo that "God can't change" notion to try to find a stone to grasp to kill. Well then, does this also mean the sacrificial system is still in play as well? Does this still mean that every single law is still in affect? Does this mean we are to live in communal villages. God is the same right. Jesus did very much change various things. In the sermon on the Mount was given He said "you heard it say" "But Now I say this". He is the Instigator of the new way the new covenant which is more perfect of that which was old. Why are you so bent to go back to the Old Way only because you want to find a grasp in life to be violant? Does your flesh tell you this? Does the Spirit tell you to be violent?
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Many did - some did not. However, as far as I know, we are supposed to follow Jesus, not the early church. The early church was not perfect. Everything has to come back to Scripture - ALL Scripture. The fact is, Jesus confronted a lot of sin in His life - so did Paul. Not one single time did they tell anyone in authority to step down. Not once. Is it because they didn't care? No. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more because her choice of life was sinful. Paul went even further - check these verses out:
1 Corinthians 9:3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
Hmmm... He lists soldier among other occupations. There is no condemnation. It is a job like a shepherd and a farmer.
Great strategy, the Early Church isn't perfect. Does this mean the first years of the Church were wrong yet somehow in post Modern Christianity we now have it right?
Jesus did not advocate violence and if you say he even supports self defense then you honestly have to reject portions of the Gospel of Matthew as something wrong. Do you? Are do you want to apply it elsewhere because that is a hard teaching for you to grasp and understand? Have you put God in your box of understanding?
quote:
2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 5 Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.
Again. No condemnation. No "don't do it!". No telling believers this isn't a "Christian" job.
Ever heard of imagery? Can I pluck my eye out now? 
quote:
You are seeing this as an either/or and it's not. You can love someone and pray for someone and still do whatever it takes to stop them from trying to kill somone else. God loves us and yet how many people has He wiped off the face of the earth? God loved Ananias and Sapphira and yet read Acts 5 to see what the consequences of their actions were.
You either do it or you don't. You are trying so desperately to find an in between. You are trying to be God by somehow saying we now can 'wipe people off the face of the earth". Do you realize that Jesus did NOT get violent when he could have? The Disciples did not get violent when they could have? Imagine Paul if he decided to just kill the soldiers that threw him in Jail under the vindication that yall are trying to hard to proove?
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Who said trusting Jesus is wrong? Do you just sit in your all day and expect God to drop manna from heaven to feed you? Of course not! God gave you hands and feet and a brain for a reason. Maybe earthless will share the story of the man in the flood or I can share the version that I heard. It's the same idea - basically, God works in many ways - and usually it's through people not through some kind of magical intervention. Or maybe you can share where in Scripture you got the idea that God never uses people to accomplish His purposes. I kind of get the opposite impression. When we start limiting how God can operate, we limit God. But God is not in a box. Who are you to tell God how He is going to protect His flock?
You know, instead of people actually wanting to live BY Jesus' example I get the same thing "well God is the same now and here and forever". Yet IF you say that you also get in to a can of beans under law stipulations.
God did not command us to be violent. Is killing a fruit of the spirit? Water it down from murder to kill if you wish, it does not justify death.
--
I am honestly sad this is what Christianity has become. Militant, violent, abusive, quick to force, angry. I must be in a time warp somewhere.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/27/2008 8:03:10 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10604
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. You do believe that Jesus is God and that He was with God from the beginning and that He is with God now, right? Because if you do, you can't just look at 3 years of His ministry on earth and say that all other Scripture is wrong because the way you personally have interpreted those few verses can only mean one thing and all other interpretations that look at ALL of Scripture are wrong.
You see, ALL Scripture is God breathed (remember Paul saying that - and he was actually referring to the OT). God didn't change when Jesus came to earth. When God tells us there is a time to kill... a time for war... He didn't change His mind (Ecclesiastes 3). When God tells us that He instituted government wield the sword and punish evildoers, He wasn't saying law enforcers are supposed to nicely ask people to go walk themselves to jail because they were bad (Romans 13:1-6).
The Early Church Thankfully rejects half of what you just said. Have you done your history checks? I can go through Origen, Turtullian, Justin Martyr and a select few others who would fight you on this subject.
Ummm. Exactly what did I say that's wrong. It's straight out of Scripture - including Scripture from the early church. Seriously, explain because this is Christianity 101.
quote:
Alright I noticed you are doing the switcharoo that "God can't change" notion to try to find a stone to grasp to kill. Well then, does this also mean the sacrificial system is still in play as well? Does this still mean that every single law is still in affect? Does this mean we are to live in communal villages. God is the same right. Jesus did very much change various things. In the sermon on the Mount was given He said "you heard it say" "But Now I say this". He is the Instigator of the new way the new covenant which is more perfect of that which was old. Why are you so bent to go back to the Old Way only because you want to find a grasp in life to be violant? Does your flesh tell you this? Does the Spirit tell you to be violent?
Is the sacrificial system still in play? No, because Jesus was the final sacrifice. There was no need for further sacrifice. As a result, all laws that were preparing us for the coming of the Messiah (ceremonial, etc) and that were specific to the Jews, are not required of Gentiles. It's spelled out in the NT and was decided at the Jerusalem Council (read Acts).
That doesn't mean that God changed. Far from it. God didn't change - He fulfilled. What you are advocating however is that God's character changed: that prior to the Word becoming flesh, He wasn't a pacifist, but when He came to earth He changed into one. Why? Jesus didn't "arrive" on the scene 2000 years ago. He has been with God from the beginning.
I've personally never been in a fight in my life so I don't understand why you think I'm a violent person. However, Scripture is very clear that there is a time to kill. It doesn't say there is a time to kill until Jesus comes. It says there is a time to kill. That doesn't mean you are violent. It means there is a time and a place. It's not about emotion. Scripture is very clear where it is ok and where it isn't ok.
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Great strategy, the Early Church isn't perfect. Does this mean the first years of the Church were wrong yet somehow in post Modern Christianity we now have it right?
What an amazing job of dodging a question! Instead of answering, let's play games. It's a serious question: Do you believe that everything the early church and all the early theologians believed is 100% correct and that they had it all right? Because reading the NT, I don't get that impression at all - even among the Apostles.
quote:
Jesus did not advocate violence and if you say he even supports self defense then you honestly have to reject portions of the Gospel of Matthew as something wrong. Do you? Are do you want to apply it elsewhere because that is a hard teaching for you to grasp and understand? Have you put God in your box of understanding?
What portions of Matthew do I have to reject? I don't recall any passages that say thou shalt not defend the life of a neighbor or your family or even yourself from those who intend evil. And where do you see that in other parts of Scripture? I'm assuming you follow more than simply the book of Matthew?
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quote:
2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 5 Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.
Again. No condemnation. No "don't do it!". No telling believers this isn't a "Christian" job.
Ever heard of imagery? Can I pluck my eye out now?
Why would Paul use imagery that is sinful? He doesn't say "If anyone sleeps around like a whore, s/he doesn't get paid unless they deliver?" Seriously...
quote:
You either do it or you don't. You are trying so desperately to find an in between. You are trying to be God by somehow saying we now can 'wipe people off the face of the earth". Do you realize that Jesus did NOT get violent when he could have? The Disciples did not get violent when they could have? Imagine Paul if he decided to just kill the soldiers that threw him in Jail under the vindication that yall are trying to hard to proove?
I never said we can "wipe people off the face of the earth". I said that God has and actually, He will again. And Jesus didn't get "violent" while on earth (again, you do realize that Jesus is God and was with God from the beginning and is with God now right?) because He didn't come here to establish an earthly kingdom. He came here to save us from our sins and restore us to God. Which again, goes right along with what I have been saying: there is a time and a place. So, while He didn't "destroy" while on earth those few years thousands of years ago, He will return and people will die. You do believe that He's coming back right? (I'm not asking to be facetious, but posting on these boards doesn't make one a Christian and since you rejected what I posted earlier, I don't really know what you believe).
quote:
quote:
Who said trusting Jesus is wrong? Do you just sit in your all day and expect God to drop manna from heaven to feed you? Of course not! God gave you hands and feet and a brain for a reason. Maybe earthless will share the story of the man in the flood or I can share the version that I heard. It's the same idea - basically, God works in many ways - and usually it's through people not through some kind of magical intervention. Or maybe you can share where in Scripture you got the idea that God never uses people to accomplish His purposes. I kind of get the opposite impression. When we start limiting how God can operate, we limit God. But God is not in a box. Who are you to tell God how He is going to protect His flock?
You know, instead of people actually wanting to live BY Jesus' example I get the same thing "well God is the same now and here and forever". Yet IF you say that you also get in to a can of beans under law stipulations.
God did not command us to be violent. Is killing a fruit of the spirit? Water it down from murder to kill if you wish, it does not justify death.
Another dodge avoiding my argument. Instead of addressing my points, you go off on wild tangents putting words in my mouth. You can dodge all you want, but it doesn't change what Scripture says and Scripture doesn't say what you are saying.
Here's a shocker for you: The fact is, Jesus doesn't tell us to live like Him. If He did, where is your tunic & sandles? Your lamp and why are you posting online? Jesus tells us to love God and love our neighbor. You may think loving your neighbor means you should stand back and let people murder and rape and pillage. I don't see that as love.
So how do we know how to live? We read God's Word. ALL of God's Word. We don't follow man (the early church). We don't call something sinful simply because in 3 years, Jesus didn't do it (although I'd love to have seen this "gentle" man clearing the temple because He certainly wasn't acting very peaceful there).
quote:
I am honestly sad this is what Christianity has become. Militant, violent, abusive, quick to force, angry. I must be in a time warp somewhere.
So if the only way to stop some thug from brutally murdering a 5 year old child is a Christian police officer shooting and killing them, you believe that makes them militant, violent, abusive, quick to force and angry? Seriously? Wow. I just don't even know how to respond to that. Wow.
I'll tell that to my dad's worker who's estranged husband came within seconds of murdering her in front of her young kids. That way, when he tries to kill her again and brutalize their kids, she'll know that trying to stop him is the same as what Ted Bundy did to all those women.
Wow.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/27/2008 8:51:58 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
That doesn't mean that God changed. Far from it. God didn't change - He fulfilled. What you are advocating however is that God's character changed: that prior to the Word becoming flesh, He wasn't a pacifist, but when He came to earth He changed into one. Why? Jesus didn't "arrive" on the scene 2000 years ago. He has been with God from the beginning.
Wasn't one of the appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament--I think they call it a theophany or something--when He showed up with a sword before the battle of Jericho? I've got a headache or I'd look it up. If someone doesn't know offhand I'll try and find a reference tomorrow when I'm thinking clearly.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/30/2008 10:54:57 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3553
Joined: 4/11/2005
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He did this when Joshua or Caleb, one of them were scouting out the land. When ask" if he were friend or foe?" The Lord responded " I am commander of the Army of the Lord." I was thinking about this for some reason the other day. I hope your head is much better. I need to look it up, and read it also. It gave me chills when I thought of it, chills not like creepy, but of awe and wonder. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
That doesn't mean that God changed. Far from it. God didn't change - He fulfilled. What you are advocating however is that God's character changed: that prior to the Word becoming flesh, He wasn't a pacifist, but when He came to earth He changed into one. Why? Jesus didn't "arrive" on the scene 2000 years ago. He has been with God from the beginning.
Wasn't one of the appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament--I think they call it a theophany or something--when He showed up with a sword before the battle of Jericho? I've got a headache or I'd look it up. If someone doesn't know offhand I'll try and find a reference tomorrow when I'm thinking clearly.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/30/2008 11:16:34 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1442
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I am honestly sad this is what Christianity has become. Militant, violent, abusive, quick to force, angry. I must be in a time warp somewhere.
The majority of people I know who concealed carry are none of the above. In fact, concealed carry permits are somewhat designed to AVOID giving anyone who is "Militant, violent, abusive, quick to force, angry" a permit. Concealed carry is supposed to be for people who are the most highly responsible in order to assist in protecting the innocent. It requires a massive background check and if tendencies toward being "Militant, violent, abusive, quick to force, angry" are found, then you're not getting the permit.
My husband has a concealed carry permit, he does carry on occassion. I generally forget he has it when I know he's carrying... it's possible that he carries at times that I don't even notice, and I'm fine with that. He is certainly none of those things. He has no desire to harm anyone, to my knowledge he's never even killed an animal for sport with a gun, we prefer target shooting for practice. As far as I know, since the age of maybe six (when he had to defend himself against a bully 3 years older than him) he has never been in any sort of physical fight (and he's a huge guy, so if he wanted to fight he could probably find the opportunity, and win). I know a few other people who also have concealed carry permits, they are also none of those things. Frankly I feel safer knowing they might have guns, because they are responsible, respectable, calm people and if I'm in need of protection I would be very happy to know that they're there to protect me and have the tools and training to do so. My husband has his permit because first, he wanted to demonstrate that he was such a model citizen that he could get one, and second, he wanted to have that tool available if it were absolutely necessary in order to protect his family (he decided to get it when he found out we were pregnant, iirc).
Seeing yet another church shooting, I'm starting to wonder if he shouldn't start carrying more.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/30/2008 3:38:48 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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I forgot all about looking up that verse, Lightshineon. I'm glad you reminded me.
Here it is:
Joshua 5:13--15 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"
And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
Most scholars believe the Commander of the Army of the Lord in that verse is Jesus, because Joshua worshiped him. If he had only been and angel, he would not have allowed himself to be worshiped.
So here you have Jesus with a sword. I'd say He's not a pacifist.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/30/2008 5:51:44 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1442
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Anybody who thinks Jesus is a pacifist has obviously never read Revelations.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God; 18 in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Guns for God. - 8/2/2008 8:33:41 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/23/2006
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To assume I would be acting on emotions is not true rebel. Yes, there would be love for those around me, but that would include the person doing the shooting. I care for his/her soul as much as anyone else's in the room.
My taking action (and I pray I would) was already decided when I purchased the gun and is not an emotional choice at all. It is a decision to protect myself,my family, and others. I really don't see God having a problem with that.
Do you believe God cares about you?
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RE: Guns for God. - 8/2/2008 11:50:23 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3553
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Yes, I have always been taught it was Christ, I hope your head is better.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I forgot all about looking up that verse, Lightshineon. I'm glad you reminded me.
Here it is:
Joshua 5:13--15 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"
And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
Most scholars believe the Commander of the Army of the Lord in that verse is Jesus, because Joshua worshiped him. If he had only been and angel, he would not have allowed himself to be worshiped.
So here you have Jesus with a sword. I'd say He's not a pacifist.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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I did not even notice this post still going on. I was just worried because a cult has had armed guards. It unnerved me at the time, but found out these men at my church are cleet certified. WoW it took, a bunch of rabbit trails, and rather hostile ones at that. Some mean rabbits here.
