Is music derailing your worship of God? (Full Version)

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TMeeks -> Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/10/2008 9:41:51 PM)

While we might not realize it, much that is presented as 'Worship Music' is really focused on ourselves. My brother just sent me this link to one of the best articles I've ever read on this topic. It's written by a catholic priest; but, the basic criticism applies across denominational lines... especially in today's 'me' centered church.

Why Do We Sing Ourselves and Celebrate Ourselves?



iluvatar -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/10/2008 10:15:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

While we might not realize it, much that is presented as 'Worship Music' is really focused on ourselves. My brother just sent me this link to one of the best articles I've ever read on this topic. It's written by a catholic priest; but, the basic criticism applies across denominational lines... especially in today's 'me' centered church.

Why Do We Sing Ourselves and Celebrate Ourselves?


I've never heard of those songs and while I've heard talk of lovey-dovey church songs, I've never experienced it myself.

I think the constant bickering about style, musicianship, and band egos is more indicative of being self-centered than any watery lyrics.

-Dan.



Roberta_ -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/10/2008 10:41:32 PM)

I've never heard of those songs either.



Zhi -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/10/2008 10:47:37 PM)

Hmm. I've only even heard of one of those songs ("Here I am" specifically).

Maybe he just needs to fix the music at his church? *ponder*



rafterman -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 12:08:12 AM)

I have my youth group "fast" from music, tv, radio and as many forms of media as possible (even if they are Christian) in the week leading up to a spiritual retreat. It magnified the worship at the retreat, and helped them form self discipline.



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 7:38:35 AM)

Uh... the particular songs that he mentions are simply examples of a greater point. And, that is that much of our music is 'ME" centered or 'US' centered rather than God centered.

I'm certain that you stop and think about the CONCEPT that you will find you HAVE experienced it without recognizing it simply because we are surrounded by songs to US and OTHERS rather than real worship toward God.

From the Baptist Hymnal:

420 I will Trust in the Lord
421 "Whosoever" Meaneth Me
487 Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus
205 Jesus is the Sweetest Name I Know
315 Room at the Cross

All of these songs are sing about OUR attitude or to OTHERS... which is the point of the article. When you get to so-called Praise Music the same kind of thing exists.

People Need the Lord.
Bless His Holy Name
O How He Loves You and Me
I Love You Lord (Very subtle, but 'ME' oriented)


quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

While we might not realize it, much that is presented as 'Worship Music' is really focused on ourselves. My brother just sent me this link to one of the best articles I've ever read on this topic. It's written by a catholic priest; but, the basic criticism applies across denominational lines... especially in today's 'me' centered church.

Why Do We Sing Ourselves and Celebrate Ourselves?


I've never heard of those songs and while I've heard talk of lovey-dovey church songs, I've never experienced it myself.

I think the constant bickering about style, musicianship, and band egos is more indicative of being self-centered than any watery lyrics.

-Dan.



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 7:41:18 AM)

That seems to be missing the forest for the trees. It isn't about a specific song. It's about a DIRECTION and FOCUS in our worship. I can replace any one of his songs with DOZENS from both past and present Christian hymns sung in every protestant church in America.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

Hmm. I've only even heard of one of those songs ("Here I am" specifically).

Maybe he just needs to fix the music at his church? *ponder*



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 7:42:29 AM)

Did they sing during the retreat? And, if so, what songs did they sing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rafterman

I have my youth group "fast" from music, tv, radio and as many forms of media as possible (even if they are Christian) in the week leading up to a spiritual retreat. It magnified the worship at the retreat, and helped them form self discipline.



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 7:44:55 AM)

I'm perplexed that people focused on the particular songs in the article and seemingly missed the deeper purpose of the article... to call people to be less "ME" and "WE" in our music and more God centered in our choice of songs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

I've never heard of those songs either.



drussell52 -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 8:07:07 AM)

Is music derailing my worship of God? Sometimes, yes. My wife and I participate in our praise band at church, which generally plays for 1 worship service a month. Some of the songs used tend to be me-centered, and another phenomenon, like some conventional liturgis used in Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Roman Catholic assemblies, tends to repeat a word or phrase umteen times, for what purpose? Also, I think a mistake is being made by the evangelicals in either not recognizing, or minimizing corporate redemption with individual redemption. This became an eye opener for me in a recent several week study of Galatians. Sometimes, find myself listening to some high standards i.e. Basey, Cole, Ella, Sinnatra, etc just to have something different filter through my auditory senses along with the "worship" stuff. Very interesting topic. As a visually impaired person, are candles, flowers, and other visually appealing media used for "me or "we" in worship? Peace and Blessings in the Savior-



jazzact13 -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 8:26:46 AM)

I want to say, first, that I do think there is a lot to be said about how songs can cause worship to be about things other then God. And some of the songs in the link in the OP are just wrong.

At the same time, I'm a bit leary of this charge at the moment, too. When songs like "Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus" and "There's Room at the Cross for You" get lumped in, it seems to me like it's going too far.

Or to give a more stark example, would this be considered to "me" centered? (emphases mine)

quote:

1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,
3. he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6. Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.



Calea37 -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 8:26:49 AM)

I think we we get derailed in our worship regarding music not because of the lyrics, but because of pride of what "we" want (style, etc.) and the attitude of our heart.

As far as songs being focused on us (and I'm talking about traditional hymns; not those weird cult type songs of we being the bread of life because WE aren't the bread of life; Jesus is)... But as for worship songs like "Oh How He Loves You and Me" well that is still giving Him praise...singing of what He has done, He did do it for us... "He gave His life, what more could He give...O, how He loves you and me...." etc.. I see nothing wrong with the word me being in a song if it is in giving praise and thanks to Him for what He has done... We're acknowledging what He did the cross for us. How can you tell someone about His love if you don't acknowledge what He did for *us*. It seems kind of nit picky to me.

The true derailing is in a prideful heart during worship, or in a heart that isn't truly seeking to lift up His name and glorify Him. Whether that be because we are irritated by the order of service, or irritated because the songs are too loud, too fast, too upbeat, not loud enough, not fast enough.... and on and on. A heart and mind not focused on Him.

God is looking at our hearts and only God truly knows if we are entering in with a HEART OF WORSHIP. I believe if I am truly thankful and giving praise to Him for what He did for me that He is pleased with that and isn't going to get hung up on the number of times the word *me* is in a song....



iluvatar -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 8:32:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

I'm perplexed that people focused on the particular songs in the article and seemingly missed the deeper purpose of the article... to call people to be less "ME" and "WE" in our music and more God centered in our choice of songs.


I agree that we need to be less 'me'-centered, but I don't necessarily agree that this really manifests itself in our song lyrics or that singing about our relationship with Christ is out-of-bounds. "It is Well" and "Amazing Grace" are both pretty 'me'-centered, but you'll be lynched if you try removing those from the hymnal (and rightly so[:)])

Perhaps I've just been lucky in finding churches that stay well-grounded in their musical selections. I think there's plenty of danger in becoming self-centered about our church music, but I see it manifesting itself more in the attitudes among the congregation towards genres as well as with power struggles within the church leadership and within the band. You can sing about the power of the blood until you're blue in the face, but how much does it all mean if you brow-beat the new music leader for playing a guitar instead of piano or you don't let a teenage drummer join the band, because you don't like drums? If that's not being self-centered, what is?

-Dan.



JimboFletch -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 8:38:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

I'm perplexed that people focused on the particular songs in the article and seemingly missed the deeper purpose of the article... to call people to be less "ME" and "WE" in our music and more God centered in our choice of songs.

Maybe we should *shudder* go to the Bible for our model... That'd be Psalms, where David and others glorify God but also dealt with very intensely personal matters.

I'm inclined to agree with Dan on this:
quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I think the constant bickering about style, musicianship, and band egos is more indicative of being self-centered than any watery lyrics.

-Dan.



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 9:37:37 AM)

Of course it's 'ME' centered. How else could it be viewed. It was David's personal experience written to express his personal feelings.

But, there are nuances at work here.

"Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus" is DIRECTLY speaking to OTHER people. And, so is "There is Room at the Cross for YOU" Neither can truly be said are songs of WORSHIP. And, that is what this thread is about.

How can we say these songs are WORSHIP if they do not DIRECTLY ADDRESS GOD; but, address our fellow parishoners instead?

The fact that we can identify with David and appreciate what he has to say is not to say that it can be called a WORSHIP song when music is applied.

Yes, it's Biblical. Yes, it's a wonderful thought. And, yes it is 'ME' centered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jazzact13

I want to say, first, that I do think there is a lot to be said about how songs can cause worship to be about things other then God. And some of the songs in the link in the OP are just wrong.

At the same time, I'm a bit leary of this charge at the moment, too. When songs like "Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus" and "There's Room at the Cross for You" get lumped in, it seems to me like it's going too far.

Or to give a more stark example, would this be considered to "me" centered? (emphases mine)

quote:

1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,
3. he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6. Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.



Zhi -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 10:17:19 AM)

quote:

That seems to be missing the forest for the trees. It isn't about a specific song. It's about a DIRECTION and FOCUS in our worship. I can replace any one of his songs with DOZENS from both past and present Christian hymns sung in every protestant church in America.

I think you kind of missed my point... my church just doesn't use songs like that that I'm aware of.

What I can remember of the songs we sang Sunday, would be: Come Lord Jesus Come, Holy Holy Holy, Jesus Name Above All Names, and His Love Endures Forever.

So I think a few of us aren't saying that us-centric worship isn't a problem if it's done, we're saying that it's not a problem where we worship.

Also, I would say that exhorting each other to worship, and listing reasons why we're worshipping with thanksgiving, should be considered a part of worship.



Roberta_ -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 10:21:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

I'm perplexed that people focused on the particular songs in the article and seemingly missed the deeper purpose of the article... to call people to be less "ME" and "WE" in our music and more God centered in our choice of songs.


I agree that we need to be less 'me'-centered, but I don't necessarily agree that this really manifests itself in our song lyrics or that singing about our relationship with Christ is out-of-bounds. "It is Well" and "Amazing Grace" are both pretty 'me'-centered, but you'll be lynched if you try removing those from the hymnal (and rightly so[:)])

Perhaps I've just been lucky in finding churches that stay well-grounded in their musical selections. I think there's plenty of danger in becoming self-centered about our church music, but I see it manifesting itself more in the attitudes among the congregation towards genres as well as with power struggles within the church leadership and within the band. You can sing about the power of the blood until you're blue in the face, but how much does it all mean if you brow-beat the new music leader for playing a guitar instead of piano or you don't let a teenage drummer join the band, because you don't like drums? If that's not being self-centered, what is?

-Dan.


Your post brought to mind, What a Friend We Have in Jesus.



jazzact13 -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 10:42:16 AM)

quote:

How can we say these songs are WORSHIP if they do not DIRECTLY ADDRESS GOD;


I guess one question would be, must a song that would be considered "woship" be one that directly addresses God? May it not also address other people in such a way as to bring to mind some aspects of God?

I think that, for example, there are other Psalms that are meant to remind the people of things God had done for them, so they would remember His goodness to them. Others may have been meant almost as instructions, reminding them of God's law and how those were actually good things to rejoice in. There were some that seeme to basically tell people to take up instruments and praise.

If I may ask, are you trying to say that all church music should be such as would be addressed only to God?



blue1914 -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 10:43:40 AM)

I personally think we are derailed from the word "go" so to speak whenever we think that music consitutes the greatest expression of our worship to God.

I love how "The Message" puts the John 4 passage about worship:

John 4:21-24

21-23"Believe me, woman, the time is coming when you Samaritans will worship the Father neither here at this mountain nor there in Jerusalem. You worship guessing in the dark; we Jews worship in the clear light of day. God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews. But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter.

23-24"It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship. God is sheer being itself—Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration."



buckifn -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 10:56:39 AM)

I think it's borderline insanity to suggest anything about "There is room at the cross for you" presents anything against Christ and His desire to draw us into a relationship with Him. Why on earth would I NOT want to tell everyone that?????


Also, the Scripture tells us to specifically use songs as one aspect of ministry. EPH. 5:19 and COL 3:16...the words "speaking to YOURSELVES" is there and I am glad.



David_D -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 12:19:15 PM)

That's an interesting article. When I choose songs for Sunday worship, I generally start with one that calls the congregation to worship, follow it with a song asking for cleansing or expressing repentance or something similar, and then move on to songs that address God directly. There is prayer and scripture reading in between to give people ample opportunity to "clean" themselves spiritually, to prepare to meet God with song and praise.

There is nothing at all wrong with songs describing personal experiences of God, nor with songs that exhort other Christians or songs about anything, really. The issue, it seems to me, is knowing which songs are appropriate for corporate worship and which are not.



Liveloved -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 12:33:27 PM)

'I' am my biggest problem.

Until I realize that, the work of God IS pretty much derailed in me.

Like Isaiah, I need to see God high and lifted up and then I will see me. Both are necessary. It is the making of relationship.

And then I can sing John Wesley's hymn, "O for a heart to praise my God, a heart from sin set free, a heart that's sprinkled with His blood, so freely shed for me." Yes, there is alot of me focus in there, but it is me that was lost and has been found by the Savior of my soul. And it is the me that longs to praise Jesus and to be set free from every chain that binds it.

It's about a relationship and that means me and Thee/Thee and me.

Appreciate your topic, TMeeks! Haven't seen you around recently. Good to hear from you![:)] LL



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 3:50:22 PM)

That's really the point, isn't it?

It's a question, meant for introspection. And, that is what the article was about, our inclination toward narcissistic forms of expression and calling it 'Worship'

Worship, in some sense, is a technical term having specific meaning. The Websters definition can be found here.

There is an OBJECT of worship and the question being asked is if the words of some songs used in our churches can distract from the proper object of worship and replace it with a conversation (in song) among ourselves.

This does NOT mean that we can't have those conversations. It's just that we might be more careful in how we describe them... just as they used to by differentiaiting between Hymns, Gospel Songs and choruses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David_D

That's an interesting article. When I choose songs for Sunday worship, I generally start with one that calls the congregation to worship, follow it with a song asking for cleansing or expressing repentance or something similar, and then move on to songs that address God directly. There is prayer and scripture reading in between to give people ample opportunity to "clean" themselves spiritually, to prepare to meet God with song and praise.

There is nothing at all wrong with songs describing personal experiences of God, nor with songs that exhort other Christians or songs about anything, really. The issue, it seems to me, is knowing which songs are appropriate for corporate worship and which are not.



JimboFletch -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 4:00:09 PM)

I think "narcissistic forms" is completely inappropriate. We sing lots of songs "about" Jesus that causes all believers present to put their minds on Him in worship.

This sounds more along the lines of juvenile pot-stirring than an honest concern over worship gone awry.



TMeeks -> RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? (7/11/2008 4:09:51 PM)

I've been here; but, not as active in the relationship and life threads of late. It's mostly a time issue. I've been devoting more time to lighter threads where I don't have to be as careful in my answers. Answering people in real pain takes a LOT of time and thought. [:)]

And, of course, I sometimes pop in up here to pose a question designed to get us thinking a bit more deeply about where we are in our Christian walk with a little nudge or two. [:D]



quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

'I' am my biggest problem.

Until I realize that, the work of God IS pretty much derailed in me.

Like Isaiah, I need to see God high and lifted up and then I will see me. Both are necessary. It is the making of relationship.

And then I can sing John Wesley's hymn, "O for a heart to praise my God, a heart from sin set free, a heart that's sprinkled with His blood, so freely shed for me." Yes, there is alot of me focus in there, but it is me that was lost and has been found by the Savior of my soul. And it is the me that longs to praise Jesus and to be set free from every chain that binds it.

It's about a relationship and that means me and Thee/Thee and me.

Appreciate your topic, TMeeks! Haven't seen you around recently. Good to hear from you![:)] LL



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