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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 4:48:12 PM
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Zhi
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I guess I'm just trying to say that mentioning ourselves in the context of our relationship to God, and mentioning what God has done for us, is, to me at least, an appropriate form of worship. At least for me, the fact that God is God is certainly something to worship Him for, but the thing that drives me most to worship Him is what He has done for me. We love Him, because He first loved us.
Some of the song lyrics listed by Fr. Scalia are troubling, as they are at best misguided and at worst borderline heretical. But, the concept that he seems to be presenting, that we can find out whether songs are sufficiently "worshipful" by counting how much we are referenced, is a little odd. So, while we certainly should be on the lookout for theologically unsound ideas being presented, even in musical form, I think trying to count the pronouns while singing would derail my worship far worse than being grateful and adoring to Him because of what He has done for us.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 6:10:08 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I think there is room for many kinds of songs--songs about God, songs to God, songs to our fellow Christian, and even songs from God to us, although the last one sometimes feels a bit awkward. The Psalms have plenty of examples of different kinds of songs.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 6:31:59 PM
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TMeeks
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Stop for a minute and ponder these questions.
What if he never did a single thing for us. Not one. What if Jesus had never come to die for us and every man woman and child would live on this earth and then spend an eternity without God.
Would He still be worthy of worship?
What makes God worthy of worship?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I guess I'm just trying to say that mentioning ourselves in the context of our relationship to God, and mentioning what God has done for us, is, to me at least, an appropriate form of worship. At least for me, the fact that God is God is certainly something to worship Him for, but the thing that drives me most to worship Him is what He has done for me. We love Him, because He first loved us.
Some of the song lyrics listed by Fr. Scalia are troubling, as they are at best misguided and at worst borderline heretical. But, the concept that he seems to be presenting, that we can find out whether songs are sufficiently "worshipful" by counting how much we are referenced, is a little odd. So, while we certainly should be on the lookout for theologically unsound ideas being presented, even in musical form, I think trying to count the pronouns while singing would derail my worship far worse than being grateful and adoring to Him because of what He has done for us.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 6:39:08 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
What if he never did a single thing for us. Not one. What if Jesus had never come to die for us and every man woman and child would live on this earth and then spend an eternity without God.
Would He still be worthy of worship?
What makes God worthy of worship?
Um, if he didn't, we wouldn't be worshiping him, so it's kind of a moot point. Anyway, there are so many aspects of our relationship of God, that I don't think it's a good idea to try and limit our worship to only a few things about Him that make Him worship-worthy. We can worship Him for what He has done, and worship Him for who He is as well. Both are good.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 6:45:02 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Stop for a minute and ponder these questions.
What if he never did a single thing for us. Not one. What if Jesus had never come to die for us and every man woman and child would live on this earth and then spend an eternity without God.
Would He still be worthy of worship?
What makes God worthy of worship?
*sigh*, I did address that in my post.
quote:
At least for me, the fact that God is God is certainly something to worship Him for, but the thing that drives me most to worship Him is what He has done for me. We love Him, because He first loved us.
So, obviously, yes, God is worthy of worship because He is God. I merely stated that what He has done for me personally tends to be more motivating, probably because it *is* more personal.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/11/2008 9:59:39 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1398
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
I personally think we are derailed from the word "go" so to speak whenever we think that music consitutes the greatest expression of our worship to God.
I agree. Equating music and worship leads to a pretty shallow perception of both. Music ≠ worship. Music ⊂ Worship. Music is an art form - a vehicle of expressing an emotion or a message. (My more cynical opinion is that it often serves as a means of inciting a mildly euphoric, hypnotic state to make everybody feel more 'spiritual').
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/12/2008 3:08:06 PM
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rafterman
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Christ did not die for the unfallen angels yet they still worship Him.
And at judgement all will bow and worship Him even those on their way to hell. A speaker I like to listen to says "if they don't want to bend their knee to Him it will be bent for them."
And yes there was music at the retreat. The band played songs mostly focused on God.
Me and my pastor have had this talk about the music on most christian radio stations and how hard it is to even hears God called by his name (s). Modern christian music seems to called God "you" in their music quite more often than using His name or title.
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"my concern is not that God is on our side, but that we are on His" abe lincoln
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/12/2008 6:04:54 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1398
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rafterman
Me and my pastor have had this talk about the music on most christian radio stations and how hard it is to even hears God called by his name (s). Modern christian music seems to called God "you" in their music quite more often than using His name or title.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Music is an art form just like poetry, literature, painting, sculpting, etc. Do we evaluate Christian painters by the number of pictures of Jesus they paint or sculpters by the number of crucifixes they carve? So we do we rate Christian musicians by their 'Jesus per hour' stats?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/12/2008 6:11:39 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2985
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
I want to say, first, that I do think there is a lot to be said about how songs can cause worship to be about things other then God. And some of the songs in the link in the OP are just wrong.
At the same time, I'm a bit leary of this charge at the moment, too. When songs like "Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus" and "There's Room at the Cross for You" get lumped in, it seems to me like it's going too far.
Or to give a more stark example, would this be considered to "me" centered? (emphases mine)
quote:
1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,
3. he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6. Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Great post. You essentially said what I was thinking, except I thought of Psalm 139. That's about as 'me centered' as it gets in the psalms.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
...there are so many aspects of our relationship of God, that I don't think it's a good idea to try and limit our worship to only a few things about Him that make Him worship-worthy. We can worship Him for what He has done, and worship Him for who He is as well. Both are good.
Very well put.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/12/2008 7:51:21 PM
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rafterman
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But we aren't evaluating the painters but the paintings. And the focal point of those paintings or songs or whatever.
I've been using the book of revelation to teach my youth how to worship God. There really is quite a bit of worship in the book.
And it gives us a glimpse of how angels worship.
If an angel were to paint a picture what would it paint?
If an angel were to write a song or poetry, what would it be about?
should we rate christian musicians by how much Jesus is in their music? absolutely. Especially if they are using the title "christian" to sell their music. Even more so if it is music to be used in worship.
Here are some keith green song titles and compare them with some stuff that gets put out there today.
There is a redeemer; Lord, I'm gonna love you; how majestic is thy name; oh lord you're beautiful; holy, holy, holy; Jesus is lord of all; Glory Lord Jesus;
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/13/2008 8:48:24 PM
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TMeeks
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Some have mentioned that there is a lot of room for many kinds of expession musically. And, that is true. However, the topic is WORSHIP.
The Christian experience is very broad. There certainly is room to express between ourselves and others our appreciation for what God hs done for us. There is also room for exhortation and encouragement to others. But, these are different sides of the coin than the side of Christian experience devoted to worship.
In the post, there was some recognition of the differences by the categories of different songs. We clled some hymns, others 'Gospel Songs' and a third group was called 'choruses'.
Today, we seem inclined to lump songs together under the general title of 'Praise and Worship' without making clear distinctions between those directed to God and those directed to ourselves and others. And, it has, as the writer pointed out, also become common to sing songs that actually speak FOR God. The 'Gospel Songs' of the 'Old Sawdust Trail' that Billy Sunday made popular probably did this as much as any genre.
Someone mentioned Revelation. And, from a pure WORSHIP point of view, there is no finer example in all of Scripture than that found in chapters 4 and 15. The issue in these chapters is that those who are praising and worshiping are right in front of Jesus Christ, the Lamb and the throne of the Father. I doubt that any of us have any idea of the totality of the magnitude of God and wht it will be like to be right in His presence in all of His Glory. And, that lets us lose sight of the real difference between praising him for who and what he is and praising him for what he has done for us.
Imagine unexpectedly coming upon the Grand Canyon for the first time. Imagine the AWE you would feel at the enormity and grandeur of it all. Then realize that the Grand Canyon is nothing more than a tiny scratch on one of the tiniest bodies in a heaven fill with billions upon billions of massive stars... and, you are suddenly in the presence of the very one that created them all. In truth, THAT is your Jesus. Would we REALLY waste our voices to exhort others to look? Would we waste a single breath on thnking him for this or tht that he did in our lives?
Or, would we be transfixed by WHO he is and WHAT He has done well beyond our personal being.
So, certinly there is a place for songs of thanksgiving and even a place for songs that encourage and exhort others. But, surely these songs fall well short of the goal of truly WORSHIPPING in song. So, maybe we should or could look very carefully at how we organize our services and how we describe what we are doing so that we do not detract, in any way, having a highly focussed time of REAL praise and REAL worship while not abandoning the other forms of expression.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/13/2008 9:26:00 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2985
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Some have mentioned that there is a lot of room for many kinds of expession musically. And, that is true. However, the topic is WORSHIP.
The Christian experience is very broad. There certainly is room to express between ourselves and others our appreciation for what God hs done for us. There is also room for exhortation and encouragement to others. But, these are different sides of the coin than the side of Christian experience devoted to worship.
In the post, there was some recognition of the differences by the categories of different songs. We clled some hymns, others 'Gospel Songs' and a third group was called 'choruses'.
Today, we seem inclined to lump songs together under the general title of 'Praise and Worship' without making clear distinctions between those directed to God and those directed to ourselves and others. And, it has, as the writer pointed out, also become common to sing songs that actually speak FOR God. The 'Gospel Songs' of the 'Old Sawdust Trail' that Billy Sunday made popular probably did this as much as any genre.
Someone mentioned Revelation. And, from a pure WORSHIP point of view, there is no finer example in all of Scripture than that found in chapters 4 and 15. The issue in these chapters is that those who are praising and worshiping are right in front of Jesus Christ, the Lamb and the throne of the Father. I doubt that any of us have any idea of the totality of the magnitude of God and wht it will be like to be right in His presence in all of His Glory. And, that lets us lose sight of the real difference between praising him for who and what he is and praising him for what he has done for us.
Imagine unexpectedly coming upon the Grand Canyon for the first time. Imagine the AWE you would feel at the enormity and grandeur of it all. Then realize that the Grand Canyon is nothing more than a tiny scratch on one of the tiniest bodies in a heaven fill with billions upon billions of massive stars... and, you are suddenly in the presence of the very one that created them all. In truth, THAT is your Jesus. Would we REALLY waste our voices to exhort others to look? Would we waste a single breath on thnking him for this or tht that he did in our lives?
Or, would we be transfixed by WHO he is and WHAT He has done well beyond our personal being.
So, certinly there is a place for songs of thanksgiving and even a place for songs that encourage and exhort others. But, surely these songs fall well short of the goal of truly WORSHIPPING in song. So, maybe we should or could look very carefully at how we organize our services and how we describe what we are doing so that we do not detract, in any way, having a highly focussed time of REAL praise and REAL worship while not abandoning the other forms of expression.
TMeeks,
Certainly, Revelation 4 and 15 are wonderful examples of worship, but effecting that stance in worship does not constitute the sum of 'REAL' worship. When we limit worship to a particular form (which is in fact not Biblical), we can easily begin to worship the form. Yet you know and I know that worship is a heart matter. As you said, it is not about the style of music. It's also not about the semantics of how someone expresses their heart's overflowing for the Lord.
I take Romans 12:1,2 as my instruction for worship, and that can manifest in various ways including corporate worship that might include singing of the Lord's greatness but not necessarily addressing Him directly (or what the world defines as directly). Sometimes when people sing of the Lord's greatness in corporate worship, it is at the prompting of the Lord, and it's hard to think that responding to the Lord's prompting is less than real worship.
quote:
Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/13/2008 11:19:19 PM
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buckifn
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Inviting someone to kneel at the cross and accept Jesus is one of the highest forms of worship there is imo.
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RE: Is music derailing your worship of God? - 7/15/2008 1:26:03 PM
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doinkdom
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Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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Music does not derail my worship of God...in fact, it enhances it greatly.
Music does have a more predominant place in the church today, but that's because there is more creativity in the church. People are not afraid or unwilling to express their love for the Lord in music.
I think the true concern of those who admonish those of us who love music, is that the emotional side of music replaces the teaching of the gospel from the pulpit. That is a valid concern and one that most of us are very aware of.
But, I am emotional...and I love my Lord and I will express it through music because He is pleased when I do so.
I worship Him because I am His and I have better than I deserve and music helps my heart cry out to Him in thanksgiving and praise.
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