McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (Full Version)

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todd_t -> McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 2:33:40 PM)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/drs-mccain-and.html#comments

Way to go out and win new votes, Senator.



Jhud -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 3:07:04 PM)

Did you even bother to read this before posting? The quote was from Gramm, not McCain:

Adds Gramm: "We have sort of become a nation of whiners. You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline...We've never been more dominant; we've never had more natural advantages than we have today..."

There is plenty to criticize McCain about without making stuff up.



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 3:19:32 PM)

I agree that if you are going to link to something that you believe supports your cricism of a canidate that you make your sure it is saying what you think it is saying, and who is saying what.

Aside from that, I would say that if anything this would tend to prove that if politicians were truthful with us they would never be elected. At the very least they would unjustly be cricized.



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 3:32:53 PM)

quote:

Did you even bother to read this before posting? The quote was from Gramm, not McCain


You're correct. That was my error on the "whining" comment by Gramm. Apologies.

However, Gramm is a chief representative of McCain's camp, and McCain did claim much of this economic strife is in the heads of Americans:

This comes on the heels of McCain himself saying of economic distress, "a lot of this is psychological. Because I agree the fundamentals of our economy is still strong.”



Jhud -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 3:46:57 PM)

quote:

You're correct. That was my error on the "whining" comment by Gramm. Apologies.

However, Gramm is a chief representative of McCain's camp, and McCain did claim much of this economic strife is in the heads of Americans:

This comes on the heels of McCain himself saying of economic distress, "a lot of this is psychological. Because I agree the fundamentals of our economy is still strong.”


McCain is right of course; the American economy is almost always a confidence game.



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 4:01:36 PM)

quote:

McCain is right of course; the American economy is almost always a confidence game.


This is a tail-wagging-the-dog argument, Jack.

If consumer confidence drops it's directly tied to bad quarterly numbers, and other factors such as employers cutting heads, rising costs, etc. People don't get nervous about spending for no reason; it's because they can see the economic writing plainly on the wall.



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 4:05:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Did you even bother to read this before posting? The quote was from Gramm, not McCain


You're correct. That was my error on the "whining" comment by Gramm. Apologies.

However, Gramm is a chief representative of McCain's camp, and McCain did claim much of this economic strife is in the heads of Americans:

This comes on the heels of McCain himself saying of economic distress, "a lot of this is psychological. Because I agree the fundamentals of our economy is still strong.”


To be fair, I'm an Obama guy right now, but the good Dr. Phil has a point. My industry (commercial real estate lending) has been fairly trashed by all the fear going around. We've had over a 90% reduction in our business volume this year. 25% of my peers are unemployed. You'd think that my sector of the economy is in shambles.

In reality, commercial real estate fundamentals are quite sound. Delinquencies are near historical lows, vacancies are running within the normal ranges, there's good demand for space and no overbuilding. Everything should be rosy. There is just so much fear right now that I can't find funding for the assets. I've got lots of opportunities, but no funds with which to pursue them. Fear has essentially become a negative feedback cycle. Now, borrowers can't get loans to pursue new projects so the overall industry is grinding to a halt for no particular good reason.

Phew. End of soapbox. Generally, I have no particular respect for Gramm. He's a terrible economist. Yet, I have to say on this one he has a point even if it's said in a not-so-sensitive manner. I'm sure it rankled those who are currently unemployed or pinched by oil prices.

BT



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 4:09:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

McCain is right of course; the American economy is almost always a confidence game.


This is a tail-wagging-the-dog argument, Jack.

If consumer confidence drops it's directly tied to bad quarterly numbers, and other factors such as employers cutting heads, rising costs, etc. People don't get nervous about spending for no reason; it's because they can see the economic writing plainly on the wall.


The question isn't one of causality - it's really one of proportion. We know that people generally act rationally in response to real issues, but it's also true that people tend to overreact and take irrational or disproportional responses to legitimate fears. This is why markets and economies tend to overshoot equilibria. It's also why we've mostly discarded the concept of efficient markets in favor of behavioral models of human investing habits.

Jack can verify that he and I rarely agree, but we do on this one.



bzirk -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 4:15:27 PM)

That's interesting because Jack and I frequently agree but not so much on this one. Certainly, consumer confidence is an integral part of the economy, and I don't underestimate the effect of a signficant number of the media casting the current administration in a bad light.

But, my friends, numbers in certain key sectors do not look good at all and are not sound. However, I don't even have to point out any sectors. Have you forgotten the dollar is lousy? That right there makes things really tough. Shall I go on?

Oh, I will grant that the weak dollar is balancing out the trade deficit a little more. [8|]



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 5:31:39 PM)

quote:

However, I don't even have to point out any sectors. Have you forgotten the dollar is lousy?


A chief reason for that being that Bush has borrowed massive amounts of cash from China to fund the invasion of Iraq, which has prevented his initiating a tax hike to pay for the same.

But in the end, what's the difference?

The people will end up covering this debt sooner or later, and it won't be something that can be paid off in 48 months like a car loan. Yet ultimately, I have to give full credit to President Bush: he's done a masterful job of ducking responsibility for this issue by delaying the arrival of the bill until he has left office, when it will be up to the next president to wrestle with it.

Well played, sir. Well played.

quote:

Generally, I have no particular respect for Gramm. He's a terrible economist.


And an author of the "Enron Loophole."



LivingParadox -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 7:57:38 PM)

Actually Gramm has it right that we are a Nation of Whiners (as a whole).

Problem is for those who are losing a house, have to choose between gas for work or groceries, have more bills coming in than interviews from resumes going out (as their unemployment runs out). So although true, as a whole we are a nation of whiners ---it's kind of an insensitive remark for those who are truly hurting.



bzirk -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 9:40:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

However, I don't even have to point out any sectors. Have you forgotten the dollar is lousy?


A chief reason for that being that Bush has borrowed massive amounts of cash from China to fund the invasion of Iraq, which has prevented his initiating a tax hike to pay for the same.

But in the end, what's the difference?

The people will end up covering this debt sooner or later, and it won't be something that can be paid off in 48 months like a car loan. Yet ultimately, I have to give full credit to President Bush: he's done a masterful job of ducking responsibility for this issue by delaying the arrival of the bill until he has left office, when it will be up to the next president to wrestle with it.



I'm no fan of Bush's economic policies -- except the tax cuts, and I think the stimulus package is a joke.

That aside, numerous players have contributed to this mess including Bernanke who hasn't helped anything by the continued rate cuts and signaling them no less.

The problem with Phil Gramm is that he became a politician.

As for a nation of whiners, I do think most of us (in America at least) are pretty fat and sassy -- some more than others.



Jhud -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/10/2008 10:51:00 PM)

quote:

That's interesting because Jack and I frequently agree but not so much on this one. Certainly, consumer confidence is an integral part of the economy, and I don't underestimate the effect of a signficant number of the media casting the current administration in a bad light.

But, my friends, numbers in certain key sectors do not look good at all and are not sound. However, I don't even have to point out any sectors. Have you forgotten the dollar is lousy? That right there makes things really tough. Shall I go on?

Oh, I will grant that the weak dollar is balancing out the trade deficit a little more.


Well, I don't doubt that there are hurting industries, but whether we are talking future purchases of goods, or investments, or oil speculation, or trade, or real estate purchases, or currency speculation, or almost any imaginable aspect of our economy, it often comes down to confidence in the future. Will America be deep in debt in the futre? Then it's a bad place to invest. Will energy supplies dwindle in the future, or will new sources be discovered? It's about risk taking and willingness to invest - and that requires confidence, and suffers when there is fear.

Real factors can affect the economy, like true shortages of raw materials and fuel, overwhelming war, failure of political systems, etc, but these have been rare in our history, and really aren't a factor now. Mostly now we fear for the future, and whether those fears play out may be in part a self-fulfilling prophecy.



ljmac -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 1:54:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/drs-mccain-and.html#comments

Way to go out and win new votes, Senator.


Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.



saved9201 -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 8:01:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Did you even bother to read this before posting? The quote was from Gramm, not McCain:


New rule #1:
We cannot attribute statements or positions taken by associates, advisors, or surrogates of candidates, to that candidate. Note: This rule does not apply to BarakObama-like candidates, as we can attribute to them anything anybody remotely associated with them says, does or did, including pastors, former pastors, visiting pastors, ushers, neighbors, mailmen, people who claim they like him, or former neighbors, ushers and mailmen, or people who use to like him.

quote:

There is plenty to criticize McCain about without making stuff up.


New rule #2:
We are not allowed to "make stuff up" about any candidate. Before posting, we have solid evidence from reliable, unbiased media sources such as Fox and the World Net Daily. Note: This rule does not apply to BarackObama-like candidates who deserve to have stuff made up about them until they come clean and admit that they're a Muslim.

From ljmac:

quote:

Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.


New rule #3:
McCain is a war hero. Any criticism of him means you hate war heroes. And if you hate war heroes, your opinion doesn't count anyway. And if you aren't a war hero, you don't deserve to be president cause being a war hero uniquely qualifies one to be a leader. Note: An exemption to this war hero rule is given to GeorgeWBush or RonaldReagan-like candidates. Avoiding combat by using family connections to get you in the National Guard, and playing a football hero in a movie, also uniquely qualifies one to be a leader.

-Julius



rlj -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 9:14:35 AM)

quote:

Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.


I missed the part about smearing the war hero. Where at in the OP's link are the swift boat guys mentioned?



rcjames -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 10:00:01 AM)

Gtahamn's statement was probably politically a mustake, but it is certainly the truth;

We are not in a recession, and if folks think we are then it is in their minds, and if they complain about being in something we are not isn't that whining.

We are at least 6 months from being in a "Recession", if we even get there with the slowed economy. (Definition of recession being 2 consecitive quarters of negative growth), unemployment is still being held down when compared to the last decade or two, and the rate of inflation is nowhere near the point to bring a recession.

So yea, we are a bunch of spoiled whiners; whining about a figment of our imagination.

Thanks
RC



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 12:31:35 PM)

quote:

Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.


a) I apologized for leaping before I looked on the Gramm comment, and; b) McCain's war record in no way earns him a free pass on criticism of his politics, statements, or voting record. Or at least not in my mind.



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 12:39:54 PM)

quote:

So yea, we are a bunch of spoiled whiners; whining about a figment of our imagination.


Tell that to folks who are struggling so badly to make ends meet, and working very hard to keep a roof over their heads and avoid foreclosure.

I am one of them right now.

Furthermore, I'm sick of the overuse of the term "whining" which is intended to mean grousing about situations that don't mean very much. However, voicing distress about how high energy costs and food prices, the devalued dollar, etc., impact a family's monthly bottom line is not (I repeat) not whining to those families living on low fixed incomes.



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 1:20:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
We are at least 6 months from being in a "Recession", if we even get there with the slowed economy. (Definition of recession being 2 consecitive quarters of negative growth), unemployment is still being held down when compared to the last decade or two, and the rate of inflation is nowhere near the point to bring a recession.
Thanks
RC


You're mostly right.

It's possible (though unlikely) that we might have entered a recession in the 2nd quarter. If the 2nd quarter GDP numbers come in negative, followed by negative numbers in the 3rd quarter, you could see the beginning date of a recession in Q2. That would put us roughly 3-4 months into a recession currently.

That said, it's not very likely. Although unemployment and jobless claims are all flashing warning signs, there's probably enough momentum to keep us at somewhere near 0-1% GDP growth into either the 3rd or 4th quarter. At worst, I would expect if we have a recession, it would begin in the current quarter, so we won't hear it formally announced for 6 months or so.

We have a jobs recession currently, so whether or not we actually have a recession as formally defined, there are some folks who are going to feel very pressed.

BT



rcjames -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 1:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
We have a jobs recession currently,


Definition of jobs recession, please?


Thanks
RC



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 2:38:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
We have a jobs recession currently,


Definition of jobs recession, please?


Thanks
RC


No problem. There's no official definition, but here goes a stab at it:

Increases in the unemployment rate and jobless claim outside the bounds of normal volatility and sufficient to establish a trend.



EStan -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 3:23:16 PM)

I think Gramm's statement was fairly hurtful to hard-working Americans who are are struggling right now to make ends meet (I include myself in that category). That said, I don't think what Gramm said is any worse (or better) than "bittergate" or "Wrightgate".

This certainly won't be the last time before November that stupid comments are made by either side [8D]



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 3:25:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EStan

This certainly won't be the last time before November that stupid comments are made by either side [8D]


This is probably the single one statement on all of Crosswalk that noone is going to disagree with.



rcjames -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:12:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
No problem. There's no official definition, but here goes a stab at it:

Increases in the unemployment rate and jobless claim outside the bounds of normal volatility and sufficient to establish a trend.


The Official "Full employment rate" is based on an unemployment rate of between 4.5 and 5 % depending on circumstances. It is presently at 5.5& which if it wasn't an election year the news media and everone else (read demokrats) would be bragging about.

There is really a lot of unsubstantiated "Whining" going on about the economy, I have been through 2 mafor recessions one of them with 20% inflation and an oil embargo; and we ain't even close at the present.

Thanks
RC



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