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:: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 4:09:54 PM
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earthless
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Can a born-again believer be demon possessed?
Absolutely not.
First Corinthians 6:19 declares that the body of the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, Scripture makes it clear that believers are indwelt by God: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (John 14:17, 23). To conclude, therefore, that Christians can be demonized is to admit that demons can inhabit the very temple of God Almighty.
This is indeed difficult to believe, given Jesus’ insights on possession: “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils” (Luke 11:21-22). Clearly, the “strong man” who guards Christians is the sovereign God Who created and sustains the heavens and the earth, Who is unable to be overpowered or plundered (2 Chronicles 20:6).
Nevertheless, we must realize that our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but rather, against principalities and powers of darkness (Ephesians 6:12). That is precisely why we are exhorted to put on the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:11).
However, we can say with confidence that Christ has already won the victory and no Christian can be “demon-possessed” (Colossians 2:15). As God’s Word triumphantly proclaims, “Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world” (1 John 4:4b).
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 4:52:35 PM
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JimboFletch
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I knew a believer that repeatedly "cast demons out" of himself - repeatedly. He never addressed the real source of his problem and, therefore, never seemed to find freedom.
14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
-James 1
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 5:13:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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I agree that no Christian can be possessed by a demon. We have the Holy Spirit inside of us, and I don't think He is keen on sharing us with any other tenants. ; )
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 7:08:03 PM
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Dougeb
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not possed but oppresed maybe???
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 7:37:44 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dougeb
not possed but oppresed maybe???
Yes, great point to add. A Christian cannot be demon possessed but can indeed be oppressed by the demonic realm. Which is why it is so important to acknowledge our sin, repent of our sin, seek the Lord, put on the full armor of God.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 7:48:23 PM
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rcjames
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Yeppers, oppresed, influenced, drug around by the nose, led astray, etc.; But not possessed.
Thanks
RC
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/7/2008 10:31:49 PM
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prophet
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Is oppressed = tempted? 
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 2:36:12 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Earthless, I hate to be the thorn in your side, but I have a serious problem with a link in your argument that makes the rest fall flat... I'm thinking specifically of...quote:
“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils” (Luke 11:21-22). Clearly, the “strong man” who guards Christians is the sovereign God Who created and sustains the heavens and the earth, Who is unable to be overpowered or plundered (2 Chronicles 20:6). Why did Jesus make this statement in Luke? He is explaining why someone can be demon possessed at all. Look at the context (which technically starts back in 11:14) and what you end up with is an order like this....
1. Jesus casts out a demon so that a mute person can speak.
2. Some marvel while others question His authority and still others ask Him for a sign from heaven, neglecting the fact that they have just seen one.
3. Jesus puts to bed the accusation of his authority proving that He has come from God
4. Jesus explains how someone becomes possessed to begin with
5. Jesus puts out an ultimatum that if you are not with Him, you are not "guarding your house". (v. 23-26)
I believe Tozer called your above process "lashing together several verses to make floatable doctrines, neglecting the message of the same." As an extreme example of the same technique, I can prove that Suicide is biblically okay. Take verse (A) that says "and Judas went out and hung himself." Then take verse (B) where Jesus says "go, therefore, and do likewise." That is an extreme example, but it is the same problem. I agree that a true Christian will not be "possessed" (the difference between "possession" and "oppression" being rather large), but the verses you are using do not in any way prove your point.
Adam
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 8:37:57 AM
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earthless
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Adam,
Lord knows I would take your insights a lot more seriously if you didn't pay such open heed to false prophets and false teachers ala IHOP. But I digress.
Let's take a look at the passages that stuck out to you as problematic for this question/premise:
"This is indeed difficult to believe, given Jesus' insights on possession: "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils" (Luke 11:21-22).
Clearly, the "strong man" who guards Christians is the sovereign God Who created and sustains the heavens and the earth, Who is unable to be overpowered or plundered (2 Chronicles 20:6)."
I don't see the problem in taking Jesus' immediate words, His insight on possession and knowing that an individual with the Holy Spirit cannot also be an individual with a demonic spirit(s).
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 10:22:33 AM
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SirWintery
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earthless,
what do you think / have you thought about the teaching that a demon might have residence in the flesh of a believer while that person's spirit belongs to God?
This is what I heard many years ago regarding the practice of deliverance for Christians, that this was an area that hadn't been dealt with in salvation and the deliverance was to cast a demon out of the "flesh". I don't know where the teaching originated.
Have you come across the practice of casting something out of Christians and what do you think is going on there when you see that?
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 10:47:31 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
earthless,
what do you think / have you thought about the teaching that a demon might have residence in the flesh of a believer while that person's spirit belongs to God?
This is what I heard many years ago regarding the practice of deliverance for Christians, that this was an area that hadn't been dealt with in salvation and the deliverance was to cast a demon out of the "flesh". I don't know where the teaching originated.
Have you come across the practice of casting something out of Christians and what do you think is going on there when you see that?
Demon possession of the flesh while the Spirit possesses the Spirit? That would still have the Spirit sharing the person...matter of fact the Spirit would have to cede the temple:
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19)
That sounds very close to some Gnostic teachings that say it doesn't matter what you do to/with the flesh as long as the spirit stays Holy, John spoke against such beliefs in 1st John.
I cannot speak for Earthless, but when I hear of it I think the same thing as when I hear of other fads in Christendom, things like the "Holy Laughter Movement"....I have even heard of "Holy Barking" or a dozen other such practices. I see people who for all their sincerity are following an unscriptural teaching.
Nowhere in scripture is a believer recorded as having been possessed, or exorcised, not after they had received the Holy Spirit.
Tim
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 10:56:06 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Have you come across the practice of casting something out of Christians and what do you think is going on there when you see that?
I call it foolishness an openness to any wind of doctrine. The one I knew who "cast demons out" of himself exhibited lust and lack of self-control rather than any biblical evidence of demon possession.
I agree with Earthless & BerianAardvark. Separating flesh-possession by demons and Holy Spirit indwelling is more akin to gnosticism than an understanding of God the Spirit.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 11:02:47 AM
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earthless
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Jimbo and Tim covered it, thanks guys.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 11:41:53 AM
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DougHorton
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Demons cannot possess anybody, believer or unbeliever. That is a misconception from poor translations.
People are demonized. And both unbelievers and believers can be demonized.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 11:47:00 AM
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DaveW
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I dislike the term "possessed" as it indicates ownership. As such, of course a blood bought believer cannot be owned by a demon or anything else.
However, that does not say that a believer cannot be demonized (a more accurate translation of what KJV terms "possessed"). Demons are by biblical revelation entities without bodies, unsubstantial spirits, and as such even "inside" or "outside" the body is rather meaningless.
Someone suggested "oppressed" instead of possessed. I find less biblical basis for that term than possessed. At least the KJV uses that word.
I see no scriptural basis for removing demons from non-believers. I also see no scriptural basis for assuming that repenting sins and placing faith in Jesus automatically removes demons from the severly demonized.
We are commanded to drive out demons. Mark 16.17 Luke 9.1 If not the unrepentant, then who do we drive them out of?
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 11:47:31 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Demons cannot possess anybody, believer or unbeliever. That is a misconception from poor translations.
People are demonized. And both unbelievers and believers can be demonized.
Can you please elaborate (a lot more) on what you just stated above?
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 12:35:53 PM
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DougHorton
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The word in Greek is daimonizomai, which, if we translated it directly it would be 'demonized', not 'demon-possessed'. The word means 'to be under the power of a demon.' There is no hint of distinguishing between possession or obsession in the meaning of the word. Sometimes that power is nearly complete control. This is what we often see in scripture. However, we also know that the power of demons may sometimes be tormenting, or sometimes a demon may exert power just by subtle influencing.
You can see the Strong's reference, with links to verses here:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1139&version=nas
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 4:35:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Can a born-again believer be demon possessed?
Absolutely not.
First Corinthians 6:19 declares that the body of the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, Scripture makes it clear that believers are indwelt by God: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (John 14:17, 23). To conclude, therefore, that Christians can be demonized is to admit that demons can inhabit the very temple of God Almighty.
Earthless,
One of the problems is that you equate demonization with the concept of possession or occupancy. We really don't have any reason to view it that way except its translation into English.
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When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 4:58:35 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
One of the problems is that you equate demonization with the concept of possession or occupancy. We really don't have any reason to view it that way except its translation into English.
How does the concept of casting out demons ( Matthew 7:22; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 12:27; Matthew 12:28; Mark 16:17;
Luke 11:18; Luke 11:19; Luke 11:20; Luke 13:32.) relate to someone being demonized? After all Jesus cast demons out of people on many occasions as did at least some of the Disciples and Apostles and others.
If they weren't occupying or possessing then all that would be needed would be to chase them off, not command them to "come out" of the person. (Mark 1:25) (Mark 5:8) (Mark 9:25) (Mark 9:29) (Luke 4:35) (Luke 4:36) (Luke 8:29) (Acts 16:18)
Tim
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 6:32:38 PM
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DougHorton
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Maybe they were indwelt by demons, maybe not. It seems some might have been, but we should not assume that all forms of demonization involve a demon dwelling in the person. Certainly a demon is not physically inside a person because demons, being spirits, do not have physical existence. How do you express a physical action or location for a non-physical being?
We say we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, meanwhile, we are in Christ, meanwhile the father has us in His hand. The terminology is meant to express ideas, not actual locations, because in truth, we know God is omnipresent.
It could be that this was the simply only way that we can picture demonization. After all, think of the many images used to describe the church -- a building, a temple, a body, a bride, a vine, etc. These are all literary devices to express the concept of the living organism we call the church.
As for being possessed, only God possesses human souls. He created all things and He is the final judge of what happens to all things. Nowhere in between did He give up possession of any part of creation. Even demons belong to Him, which is exactly why Christ has authority over them.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 7:28:21 PM
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earthless
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Doug,
Something that really stood out to me, immediately, from your post is your statement concerning demons/beings from the demonic realm (and Satan himself) - are you saying that they are not beings in the sense that angels are? We're not necessarily talking physical in our concept of space and time..
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/8/2008 8:08:01 PM
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prophet
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Confused.......
Can someone illustrate what these words mean
a) demon possessed
b) demonised
c) oppressed
d) tempted
Thanks in advance
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/9/2008 12:31:53 AM
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Dan1138
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How can anyone state so confidently that demons cannot be physical. Most evidence points to demons as fallen angels who most certainly have been physically manifested in OT times. I know a man who has physically felt the presence of demons, seen pictures of demons. Is this saint mad? Do you know that Pastor Tom Brock has preached that he was physically attacked by a demon at night? Demons are like little chihuahuas to the saints. God has given us the right to command demons, how can they possess us?
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/9/2008 1:17:34 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
God has given us the right to command demons, how can they possess us?
If by "us" you mean Christians, then I don't think they can. But if you mean "us" as in general humanity...
By God giving them permission to. It's happened before.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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