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Beth67 -> Why the tree of knowledge? (7/5/2008 4:25:05 PM)

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If he already knew that Eve and Adam would eat of it, why even make it an option?



rcjames -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/5/2008 4:47:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beth67

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If he already knew that Eve and Adam would eat of it, why even make it an option?


Maybe to test their love for him and their trustworthyness?

As in the same way that temptation is not removed from Christians.

Thanks
RC



john_mark -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/5/2008 5:16:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beth67

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If he already knew that Eve and Adam would eat of it, why even make it an option?


God's knowledge of a future event doesnt mean that eve and adam did not make a true freewill choice to sin. God's knowledge doesnt violate man's choices.



TrustingGod -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/5/2008 6:16:08 PM)

I think Freewill is the key. If God did not give Adam & Eve something they could disobey, would they really have freewill?



Bluethread -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/6/2008 12:51:36 AM)

If Adonai knows how our lives are going to play out, as I believe He does, why does he bother having us go through all of the things we do. Experience is its own reward. Also, as Paul postulates, If Adonai creats vessels fit for distruction, who are we to find fault. This is also the lesson of Job. We are to be grateful for Adonai giving us life, even if that life is miserable.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/6/2008 1:21:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beth67

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If he already knew that Eve and Adam would eat of it, why even make it an option?


If all choices lead to the same end, or no choices have negative consequences, then there are no meaningful choices.

Adam and Eve already knew good, they knew God, they came to know evil experientially by eating what God told them not to eat. Before that they had ONLY known good.

The fruit of that tree was the fruit of disobedience, and the only way that God could have prevented them from eating would be to have denied them the opportunity to make any meaningful choices.

Such an automaton could have served God, but could never love or fellowship with God...and that is what God created us to do.

Tim



URForgiven -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/6/2008 8:45:17 AM)

Yes, in order to have a love relationship with someone who is the object of your love, it is necessary for them to be free to not accept your love. Love is risky business. The tree represents that choice. Without the choice to refuse Gods love, there can be no choice to accept Gods love.

Gods desire was the same then as it is now, He desires to have a faith/love relationship with His creation, based on freedom, not coercion. By eating the fruit, Adam and Eve chose to reject the love of their Creator and to go their own way. They acted independently of Him, which is to make themselves their own gods.

...and God honored their choice.

...and He withdrew His Spirit from them.

And man has been trying to live independently of his Creator ever since. It is only when Gods Spirit is restored within us through our acceptance of Gods only Son, that we can once again have that faith/love relationship with our Creator. And that is why Jesus is the only way.

Peace



makarizo -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/6/2008 11:56:33 AM)

Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

without the tree, that verse might not carry as much meaning.



Beth67 -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/6/2008 6:47:51 PM)

I really enjoyed reading the replies to my question, all of which I found to be very satisfying. Thank you. This really is a great website. I only wish I had found it sooner!



lmwal931 -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/11/2008 10:15:27 PM)

the fig tree is the tree of life. the tree of knowledge is connected some way with the fig tree. when a lady gives birth that part of her body is the fig tree. they say that israel is the fig tree. israel is part of the fig tree.



Rev_22_4 -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/13/2008 2:37:02 AM)

The thinking here is that a huge part of the reason that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed there is the result of the war that broke out in Heaven(Revelation 12:7). Lucifer became prideful and decided that he wanted to be God. He wanted worship(Isaiah 14:12-14) and so basically he started a political campaign(Revelation 12:7). Apparently he had a very convincing campaign because he managed to convince 1/3 of the angels of his ideas(Revelation 12:3). God couldn't just zap him out of existence because that wouldn't prove Him right. It would only prove Him powerful. This might make individuals serve God out of fear rather than love. So, it is my belief that God stripped him of the name of Lucifer and gave him the name Satan and sent him and his followers to earth so he can run his program here. Basically God may have said something along the lines of: “Ok. You think you can run things better than me? I will allow you to run your program on earth. If you can convince Adam to follow you and your program works out better than mine, you can have my throne.” Now this conversation may have never taken place but, the point is, God allowed Satan to run his program here on earth, I believe, to remove all doubts that God is the one who knows how to run things. Since Adam was the representative of earth and Adam was following God, it was God's program that was being ran here. This is probably why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was place there. God said not to eat of it so, if Satan was able to get Adam to eat of it, this would mean that Adam chose Satan's program. Then Satan would be able to run his program. Here we are today, almost 6000 years later, and Satan's program is in full swing. If you take a look at the world today, you can see how ugly it is without comparing it to anything. All the sickness, death, pain and suffering going on in this world is just ugly! Then if you compare it with what the Bible tells us about how Heaven is, you can clearly see who has the better idea of how to run things.



cybrjewls -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/13/2008 2:55:56 PM)

Greetings! It is written in Daniel how the dragon's spiritual empire trampled on some of the starry hosts during the desecration of God's Holy Temple through Antiochus Epiphinanes. It is written how the Angel of God struggled with lucifer (the prince of the powers of the air or 'king' of babylon, persia, greece.....) to bring the message to Daniel and was fighting concerning the kings of the earth which are the spiritual 'powers that be' in the heavenly realms. For we fight not against flesh and blood but against spiritual powers and rulers and authorities in the lower heavenly realms as Paul wrote.

In revelation 12:7 after Christ was Resurrected and Ascended after 40 days of appearances among the peoples on earth, war was declared in the upper heavenly realms and lucifer and his angels lost their places and strongholds there and were thrown to earth. This made the Dragon very mad and he persecuted the People of God in Christ Jesus during the Roman Empire unto Martyrdoms. Our circumstances give us the opportunities that we need to establish our relationship with Jesus. Martyrs are 5th seal Prophecy, and they will gain 1000 years to Reign along With Christ Jesus at Jerusalem as written. They will be priests of God Almighty.....

Eventually, as with the trials that Angels endured in the heavenly realms (although different for us for we are in the corrupt flesh), if The People overcome the darkness, they will be granted through Grace the right to eat from the tree of Life in the Garden of God in The New Earthly Spiritual Realm which He Will Create as written. Thus, the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil' is but a shadow of the things to come as written in Paul.

It has been around 8000 years since Egypt was formed after Noah, and we do not know of the amount years, by our reckoning, that occurred before the flood; per se. Also, one is not told how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of God safely before the testing of lucifer was allowed to happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rev_22_4



Toto2u -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/20/2008 1:15:15 AM)

Rev_22_4 had a lot of good things to say. Sorry for the length here, but this is a good question.

It's my understanding that it revolves back to the rebellion. It seems though, that the Tree wasn't put there as a temptation in some 'celestial sting operation'. The creation of the physical realm meant a delicate balance of restrictions. The spiritual realm does not experience these. The Tree of Knowledge as well as the Tree of Life needed to be here, it seems, to established the physical parameters. (More on this later..)

The story could have just as easily gone the other way though, with Adam or Eve eating from the Tree of Life. To show this we see the transgression, then God quickly expelled Adam & Eve as He, somewhat anxiously says, "..lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live for ever.." [Gen 3:22]

This does not speak of a pre-designed pre-determined set-up, but of someone surprised and quickly covering thier tracks.

There is a few points in the story that tells us that God did not set it up as a test.
> The serpent tempted Eve while God was gone. Then God came back ..
> .. and they hid from God (Gen 3:8) and "..God called out to them.. Where art thou?"
> When God found out what they did. He was upset and cursed the serpent, Eve, and then Adam.

All of this seems to emphasis that this was not a closely watched game. It clearly seems to say that God was not expecting any of this.

It certainly can be interpreted, that this was just the act God and Satan were playing, and Adam & Eve were the pawns, but that doesn't speak well for my God. My God is the God of truth. He does not lie nor does He play tricks. He created the Garden in good faith, and then was side-swiped by His lieutenant Lucifer. It makes more sense that Satan ambushed God while His guard was down, then that God's first act with mankind was a deception.

If we accept that God created the Garden in good faith, then the Trees of Knowledge & Life were just component parts of that design. Why would He place such potentially dangerous items within the reach of children? Maybe because they were important to maintaining the structure of this reality - and, that He trusted His children.

I try to analyze these and other issue on my website, your welcome to come by :) I'm still building the site, but My book is ready for reading...



ta_mosquito -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/20/2008 8:23:41 AM)

quote:

When God found out what they did. He was upset and cursed the serpent, Eve, and then Adam.

All of this seems to emphasis that this was not a closely watched game. It clearly seems to say that God was not expecting any of this.


How do you reconcile this with God's sovereignty and omniscience?



URForgiven -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/20/2008 8:51:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toto2u

Rev_22_4 had a lot of good things to say. Sorry for the length here, but this is a good question.

It's my understanding that it revolves back to the rebellion. It seems though, that the Tree wasn't put there as a temptation in some 'celestial sting operation'. The creation of the physical realm meant a delicate balance of restrictions. The spiritual realm does not experience these. The Tree of Knowledge as well as the Tree of Life needed to be here, it seems, to established the physical parameters. (More on this later..)

The story could have just as easily gone the other way though, with Adam or Eve eating from the Tree of Life. To show this we see the transgression, then God quickly expelled Adam & Eve as He, somewhat anxiously says, "..lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live for ever.." [Gen 3:22]

This does not speak of a pre-designed pre-determined set-up, but of someone surprised and quickly covering thier tracks.

There is a few points in the story that tells us that God did not set it up as a test.
> The serpent tempted Eve while God was gone. Then God came back ..
> .. and they hid from God (Gen 3:8) and "..God called out to them.. Where art thou?"
> When God found out what they did. He was upset and cursed the serpent, Eve, and then Adam.

All of this seems to emphasis that this was not a closely watched game. It clearly seems to say that God was not expecting any of this.

It certainly can be interpreted, that this was just the act God and Satan were playing, and Adam & Eve were the pawns, but that doesn't speak well for my God. My God is the God of truth. He does not lie nor does He play tricks. He created the Garden in good faith, and then was side-swiped by His lieutenant Lucifer. It makes more sense that Satan ambushed God while His guard was down, then that God's first act with mankind was a deception.

If we accept that God created the Garden in good faith, then the Trees of Knowledge & Life were just component parts of that design. Why would He place such potentially dangerous items within the reach of children? Maybe because they were important to maintaining the structure of this reality - and, that He trusted His children.

I try to analyze these and other issue on my website, your welcome to come by :) I'm still building the site, but My book is ready for reading...


**sigh**

"...We're not in Kansas anymore Toto...."

[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



rcjames -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/20/2008 9:18:21 AM)

quote:

Why the tree of knowledge?



(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

(Gen 3:23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Thanks
RC



CCCdnt -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 3:09:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toto2u

It clearly seems to say that God was not expecting any of this.



God knows everything that will happen. He is never taken by suprise.



DougHorton -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 4:01:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Maybe to test their love for him and their trustworthyness?

As in the same way that temptation is not removed from Christians.

Thanks
RC


I agree. Adam failed the test. Abraham passed.

Now it is our turn.



DougHorton -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 4:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

I think Freewill is the key. If God did not give Adam & Eve something they could disobey, would they really have freewill?


Yes. They would still be free to choose this fruit or that fruit.

You have free will at MacDonalds, but you won't find fillet Mignon there. The absence of something does not negate freewill.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 5:27:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

I think Freewill is the key. If God did not give Adam & Eve something they could disobey, would they really have freewill?


Yes. They would still be free to choose this fruit or that fruit.

You have free will at MacDonalds, but you won't find fillet Mignon there. The absence of something does not negate freewill.


Insignificant choices don't exercise free will.

If the only sort of choices are between apples or bananas or steak or hamburger, then what truly is the difference?

The choice was between obeying God, and not obeying God...THAT choice will always have eternal significance and consequences.

Tim



DougHorton -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 5:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

Insignificant choices don't exercise free will.

If the only sort of choices are between apples or bananas or steak or hamburger, then what truly is the difference?

The choice was between obeying God, and not obeying God...THAT choice will always have eternal significance and consequences.

Tim


Assuming your definition is right, then unbelievers who are dead in spirit and enemies of God and unable to do any righteous act that was not a filthy rag do not have free will.

Oh, sorry. Paul was describing us with those adjectives. I guess we did not come to Christ by free will. I suppose those ultra-Calvinists were right all along.

Or maybe the assumed definition of free will is wrong.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 5:54:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

Insignificant choices don't exercise free will.

If the only sort of choices are between apples or bananas or steak or hamburger, then what truly is the difference?

The choice was between obeying God, and not obeying God...THAT choice will always have eternal significance and consequences.

Tim


Assuming your definition is right, then unbelievers who are dead in spirit and enemies of God and unable to do any righteous act that was not a filthy rag do not have free will.

Oh, sorry. Paul was describing us with those adjectives. I guess we did not come to Christ by free will. I suppose those ultra-Calvinists were right all along.

Or maybe the assumed definition of free will is wrong.


I said that insignificant choices did not exercise free will. And I would stand by that statement. But you somehow made it into a flat statement of my beliefs on the total depravity of man.

Could you kindly point out where in my post (in this or any other thread) I said anything at all as to my beliefs on that topic.

Tim



DougHorton -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 6:16:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

Could you kindly point out where in my post (in this or any other thread) I said anything at all as to my beliefs on that topic.

Tim


What you did say was:
"The choice was between obeying God, and not obeying God."

If that is free will. Then the unregenerated cannot have free will because they cannot choose to obey God.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/22/2008 7:32:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

Could you kindly point out where in my post (in this or any other thread) I said anything at all as to my beliefs on that topic.

Tim


What you did say was:
"The choice was between obeying God, and not obeying God."

If that is free will. Then the unregenerated cannot have free will because they cannot choose to obey God.


The original post was refering to Adam and Eve's choice, and that is what I was addressing.

The original choice (made by Adam and Eve) was before the fall when their free will completely free, undamaged by sin. THEY could chose freely, as they were neither regenerate nor unregenerate, but as originally created (generate???).

It was only AFTER their choice to disobey God and eat the fruit that He had forbidden that the need to be regenerate came into being.

The extent of our free will is determined by just how damaged the free will originally granted to mankind has become. Opinions on that vary from complete and absolute, to completely unimpaired. Each with its accompanying compelling proof texts, and each falling within the bounds of orthodox Christian belief.

Tim



DougHorton -> RE: Why the tree of knowledge? (7/23/2008 10:24:37 AM)

The intent behind my comment was only to show that the definition used for free will was illogical. Whatever definition used must be consistent before and after the Fall, and consistent for believers and unbelievers.

The Fall did not change how free will functions. It only narrowed the parameters. Regeneration does not change how free will functions. It only broadens the parameters.

I think we are straying from the topic.



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