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looking4help -> denying (6/30/2008 9:49:17 PM)

I was talking on the telephone and became defensive about being a christian (survey) when asked about wether I was a born again christian. I was wondering there is still hope.



BerianAardvark -> RE: denying (6/30/2008 10:08:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4help

I was talking on the telephone and became defensive about being a christian (survey) when asked about wether I was a born again christian. I was wondering there is still hope.


A lot of people seem to get anxious and defensive when that question comes up. I'm not sure why, perhaps it is the excesses that some people who say they are born again are prone to, or perhaps it is because they don't understand what it means to be born again.

Put as simply as possible, the only sort of Christian there is is the born again kind:
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:3-7)

That is where the phrase came from and what it refers to.

With that in mind I doubt that you would have to think very long at all to arrive at a simple yes or now answer.

As long as there is breath in your body, there is time to make that choice. But I suspect you have already, and just need to understand and get comfortable with some of the "jargon" [sm=angel.gif][sm=angelhalo.gif][sm=angel.gif]

Tim



evry1needsgod -> RE: denying (6/30/2008 10:10:35 PM)

Hi looking4help! I hope you have been finding your way around these forums ok.

Here's my question for you. I don't know exactly your point for this thread, but I put 2 and 2 together and came up with a conclusion. Are you denying Christianity? Your name makes me think you are a bit scared, because once you thought Christ was the way, and now you don't, and you need help. Am I right?



looking4help -> RE: denying (6/30/2008 10:26:51 PM)

I became defensive when asked by a political survey that was asking about being a born again christian and I said I was a christian but I am not sure if I have been born again. When I asked why this was relevant they stopped the survey.



BerianAardvark -> RE: denying (6/30/2008 11:04:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4help

I became defensive when asked by a political survey that was asking about being a born again christian and I said I was a christian but I am not sure if I have been born again. When I asked why this was relevant they stopped the survey.


That is sort of the impression I got from my "between the lines" of your post.

Some times the survey taker has a legitimate reason for asking about your beliefs (such and so per cent of those who describe themselves as born again believers answered....) but there is nothing wrong with questioning why they are inquiring, and from their reaction, their motive wasn't all that honorable (or maybe they were just some poor schlug with a list of questions and no clue as to why they were asking them. [;)]

Tim



Ezra -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 1:16:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4help
I became defensive when asked by a political survey that was asking about being a born again christian and I said I was a christian but I am not sure if I have been born again. When I asked why this was relevant they stopped the survey.


Does this mean that you are really not sure whether you have been born again, or does it mean you simply did not want to admit it to someone else?

The Scriptural tests for knowing whether or not you are a child of God are found in the first epistle of John. This was also written so that we may know that we have eternal life (1 Jn. 5:13).

God wants us to know without a shadow of a doubt that we are children of God. However that only happens when one genuinely repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and receives Him as Lord and Savior (Jn. 1:12,13).



mvic -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 7:30:36 PM)

Please don't think this a dumb question:

How does anyone know whether they are born again?

I know many Christians in the UK who are baptised, they go to church, are active in their church, live as best they can a Christ-like life ... etc ...
Are they born again?

Is this a term used more in the US?

How do you get born again? Is it a church ceremony like a baptism?



BerianAardvark -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 8:11:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Please don't think this a dumb question:

How does anyone know whether they are born again?

I know many Christians in the UK who are baptised, they go to church, are active in their church, live as best they can a Christ-like life ... etc ...
Are they born again?

Is this a term used more in the US?

How do you get born again? Is it a church ceremony like a baptism?


Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

We are born again we are born in the Spirit, we are already alive physically but because of our sins we are dead physically.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:1-2)

Being born again takes us out from under the spirit of the world (Satan) and to being alive under the Holy Spirit.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Tim



mvic -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 8:48:19 PM)

Hi Tim,

Thanx for replying. Forgive me for my asking again; I'm trying to understand.

Presumably, someone who is baptised, who has accepted Jesus in his life and repented his sins is, to all intense and purpose a Christian. At what point exactly does he become "born again"?

For example: I have been a Christian most of my life. Like everyone else I sin over and again ... (who doesn't?).

Am I born again? How? When did it happen?

It isn't a term we use here in the UK.



BerianAardvark -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 10:11:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Hi Tim,

Thanx for replying. Forgive me for my asking again; I'm trying to understand.

Presumably, someone who is baptised, who has accepted Jesus in his life and repented his sins is, to all intense and purpose a Christian. At what point exactly does he become "born again"?

For example: I have been a Christian most of my life. Like everyone else I sin over and again ... (who doesn't?).

Am I born again? How? When did it happen?

It isn't a term we use here in the UK.


Just because we still sin doesn't mean that we aren't saved.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

If it did then why would John say that if we have fellowship with Him, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. The grammar indicates that the cleansing is continuous, not a one time thing.

Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (John 13:10)

Christianity is often referred to as a walk, as we walk in this world our "feet" get dirty, and we need to wash them, but we are clean (cleansed by the initial forgiveness of our sins.) except where living in a fallen world has soiled us.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)


Again the grammar indicates a continuing process. It is only when we refuse to acknowledge our sins that they are not cleansed for the same reason that if you don't acknowledge your face is dirty it won't get washed.

I would suppose that it could be said that being born again, born in the spirit, would be initiated when we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)


Since when we heard and believed the gospel of our salvation, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge of our inheritance and redemption, I would say that is the moment of salvation.

Knowing if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is about as hard, on an objective level, to prove as when you were/are born again.

Spiritual things can only be discerned Spiritually, and newborns are not notably discerning, though as they grow up they (hopefully) become more so. For that reason it might be that the awareness of both the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being born in the spirit is developed gradually.

Tim



evry1needsgod -> RE: denying (7/1/2008 10:58:30 PM)

mvic:

Being "born again" is simply a term used (I guess mostly in the US) that explains the second a person receives Christ as his/her personal Savior. Salvation is a one time act, just like being born from your mother's womb. The minute you become saved, you are a baby in Christ who grows and matures in Christ, just like when you are physically born. Theres no wonder why Jesus and His disciples referred to being saved as being "born again" because it is an absolute perfect parallel. It is a one time act that can not be reverted.



loveineffable -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 12:08:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

mvic:

Being "born again" is simply a term used (I guess mostly in the US) that explains the second a person receives Christ as his/her personal Savior. Salvation is a one time act, just like being born from your mother's womb. The minute you become saved, you are a baby in Christ who grows and matures in Christ, just like when you are physically born. Theres no wonder why Jesus and His disciples referred to being saved as being "born again" because it is an absolute perfect parallel. It is a one time act that can not be reverted.


Right on, now let us look a little closer first born of water, (parellel) born of the flesh. We are born of water when born in the flesh. the water sack breaks and we come out.
This is the first birth, the flesh. the second is the Holy Spirit doing the job. bringing one unto belief inChrist the messiah, thus born again, all else is rituals, man trying to have a part of something that was God's doing and God alone in the trinity. then comes the fire burning out the dross, so count it all joy when going through the fire, for you are being perfected
ineffable love



mvic -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 10:51:56 AM)

Thanx BerianAardvark, Evry1needsgod and Loveineffable for your replies.

Let's see if I got this right:

"Knowing if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is about as hard, on an objective level, to prove as when you were/are born again." Does this mean one cannot really tell when one was "born again"?

"Being "born again" is simply a term used (I guess mostly in the US) that explains the second a person receives Christ as his/her personal Savior." So if I were baptised as a baby (knowing nothing) being "born again" is when (as an adult) I accept Christ as my Saviour. OK?

"Salvation is a one time act ... It is a one time act that can not be reverted". But I am a sinner. I sin again and again. And I repent again and again. Do I still have salvation when I sin? Do I lose it then gain it again ... and so on and so on?

Let's consider some people we all know: e.g. The Queen; she is the Head of the Anglican Church. Is she born again?

Or the Archbishop of Canterbury - is he born again?

Or the Pope - is he born again?

They are all Christians. Do you consider them born again?

To go back to the Opening Post by Looking4help: when I am phoned by a survey team asking me if I'm born again; do I answer:

Yes ... No ... I don't know.

I know I'm a Christian, but I don't know if I'm born again. Perhaps it's because it's a term not used often in the UK.

Sorry about all the questions - I'd really appreciate your answers.

Thanx and God bless.



loveineffable -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 11:46:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Thanx BerianAardvark, Evry1needsgod and Loveineffable for your replies.

Let's see if I got this right:

"Knowing if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is about as hard, on an objective level, to prove as when you were/are born again." Does this mean one cannot really tell when one was "born again"?

"Being "born again" is simply a term used (I guess mostly in the US) that explains the second a person receives Christ as his/her personal Savior." So if I were baptised as a baby (knowing nothing) being "born again" is when (as an adult) I accept Christ as my Saviour. OK?

"Salvation is a one time act ... It is a one time act that can not be reverted". But I am a sinner. I sin again and again. And I repent again and again. Do I still have salvation when I sin? Do I lose it then gain it again ... and so on and so on?

Let's consider some people we all know: e.g. The Queen; she is the Head of the Anglican Church. Is she born again?

Or the Archbishop of Canterbury - is he born again?

Or the Pope - is he born again?

They are all Christians. Do you consider them born again?

To go back to the Opening Post by Looking4help: when I am phoned by a survey team asking me if I'm born again; do I answer:

Yes ... No ... I don't know.

I know I'm a Christian, but I don't know if I'm born again. Perhaps it's because it's a term not used often in the UK.

Sorry about all the questions - I'd really appreciate your answers.

Thanx and God bless.


MVIC, okay, no one can tell truly who is in fact truly a believer or not. Except the person that says they are and God. For the person knows whether they believe or not.
The devil can do good works and does. And we know he knows, yet the devil has chosen his own way, not to put trust in God the creator of all.
Now we all were born after the flesh, wanting to be god of our own lives and as we grow up God of everyones' lives around us. thinking this will make one safe. for we all have had bad experiences.

So, we could get all dressed up look like, act like, try to be like, and not ever even have come to life that is being offered in the ressurection of Jesus Christ.
So , I say I believe and you see me shut up a book, that is full of porn.
You say wow what a righteous person. I say does shutting that book up make me righteous?
You might say yes. I say no it does not. Unbelievers also might shut that up as well. What makes one righteous is partaking in his righteousness, (Jesus Christ's) it is not ours, it is his. We partake in it
Look: to me I had no righteousness before I got saved, and I had no righteousness after I got saved.
But I was made aware of my unrighteousness. So I set out to be righteous, and never could attain it, still can not, at least from my own strength.
Now what I did not realize was i needed to partake in his righteousness, forsake any of my own that I thought I had. Thus he ends up doing the work in me that I so desired to do in the first place. leaving no room for proudness or boastfullness on my part.
The believers shall know them by their fruit. Yet we have to discern fake fruit from real fruit, and only the Holy Spirit can do this for you in you.
So work out your own salvation, seeking out God and you will know the truth that sets you free.
You believe , you are born again and you will know, for he will show you, by your intentions, you will know.
The thief on the cross, do you think he was born again, he believed, Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise. I think yes indeed, he was, the moment of belief, and God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit knows when this takes place, thus growth starts
GRACE to me is God Raises A Child Eternally. You believe in Christ continue to seek him out not others, and you will become like the mighty oak tree that was a small nut that stood it's ground.
ineffable love



BerianAardvark -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 12:08:24 PM)

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:3-7)

We have it on the express word of Jesus Himself that if you aren't born again, you will not enter the Kingdom, hence are not saved, and not a Christian.

Therefore it is a reasonable assumption that you know that you are born again in the same manner as you know that you are saved.

That means that if you believe that you can never truly know you are saved, you also believe that you will never know if you are born again.

About the only objective way to know if someone is saved is when you see a change in the way they act. That is what James is talking about when he says: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

One definition of justified is: to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

The evidence of your salvation is that you begin (and it is an ongoing process) to change and that change in the the way you live your life is the justification (to use the above definition) of your claim to be saved.

Salvation is the event...one time complete in itself...., justification is when God declares us to be justified (an other definition of justified is: to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be) and sanctification is the process that God uses to bring us to the state He has declared for us.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)

You either are or are not saved, and if you are saved then (by the very word of Jesus) you are born again.

You are also in process of being transformed by the agency of the Holy Spirit into what God had declared you to be, and given you the Spirit as His own personal guarantee and seal that He will accomplish what He has set out do do in and with you.

Tim



loveineffable -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 12:18:22 PM)

You either are or are not saved, and if you are saved then (by the very word of Jesus) you are born again.

ABSOLUTELY, I agree
ineffable love



mvic -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 1:58:03 PM)

Thank you BerianAardvark and Loveineffable for your responses.

God bless.



evry1needsgod -> RE: denying (7/2/2008 11:57:39 PM)

mvic:

WOW, you ask A LOT of questions that are extreemly hard to answer, but I will definitely try my best.

quote:

"Knowing if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is about as hard, on an objective level, to prove as when you were/are born again." Does this mean one cannot really tell when one was "born again"?


Well, empirically and objectively it is impossible to know. There is no "science" that will prove you are a Christian bound for Heaven. But trust me, if you are not truly saved, the Holy Spirit will convict you, and you'll know!

quote:

"Being "born again" is simply a term used (I guess mostly in the US) that explains the second a person receives Christ as his/her personal Savior." So if I were baptised as a baby (knowing nothing) being "born again" is when (as an adult) I accept Christ as my Saviour. OK?


This is where the questions begin to leak into other threads. I will quickly answer these questions in hope to not get caught by a moderator! [;)] Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Again, there is ginormous thread on this subject, but the fact is, salvation is a one time act, and that one time act does not occur when you are baptized in a church. Baptism is a commandment from God, but not a requirement. So yes, being "born again" denotes the time at which you are accountable, knowledgeable of your sins, and understand you are in need of a Savior, and then consciously ask Jesus to be your personal Savior. Being born again is not something your parents ask a priest to do for you when you are 6 months old.

quote:

"Salvation is a one time act ... It is a one time act that can not be reverted". But I am a sinner. I sin again and again. And I repent again and again. Do I still have salvation when I sin? Do I lose it then gain it again ... and so on and so on?


Again, this is a question meant for another thread, but I will answer it very quickly to save you some time. Yes, we are all sinners, and are all in need of a Savior. That is where Jesus comes in. The Bible says in Eph 2:10 "Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The context of this passage can be found in the previous 2 verses. The "we" mentioned in v. 10 describes the saved/children of God/"born again"/believers, or whatever you want to call them. According to v. 10, when one is saved, or "born again", they are created in the image or Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS. If you are a true Christian, will you sin? Absoutely! But you do not loose your salvation, because you have already been created in Christ Jesus, and you will do good, not through yourself, but through Jesus. Salvation is an act so powerful, you are compelled to act upon it, but only by the power of the One who indwells you.

quote:

Let's consider some people we all know: e.g. The Queen; she is the Head of the Anglican Church. Is she born again?

Or the Archbishop of Canterbury - is he born again?

Or the Pope - is he born again?

They are all Christians. Do you consider them born again?


Very good question. The only 2 people who know that answer is them self and God.

quote:

To go back to the Opening Post by Looking4help: when I am phoned by a survey team asking me if I'm born again; do I answer:

Yes ... No ... I don't know.

I know I'm a Christian, but I don't know if I'm born again. Perhaps it's because it's a term not used often in the UK.


If you are saved, yes. "born again" is simply a term used to describe the moment you allowed Christ to take control of your life. However, if you believe you must continually do good works to earn your way to Heaven, you would not be considered a "born again" Christian, but more of a Catholic Christian.



mvic -> RE: denying (7/3/2008 8:37:23 PM)

Thank you Evry1needsGod for a full and comprehensive answer. I really appreciate it.

God bless.



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