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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/20/2008 9:04:00 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
jkdjr25
And what happens to those people who get the care and then can't pay? They get harassed by debt collectors regardless of their efforts to get assistance in paying the bills. That's part of the problem that needs to be fixed.
A totally separate issue. The point is they get the care. It happened to me once. (refer to my post #247 on this thread). We worked out a payment schedule. My family helped a little. That's life. And the hospital was very patient and understanding. I'm sure there are some cases like you claim, but again, the rhetoric doesn't match reality.
My previous post:
quote:
backrowbaptist
I have a story to tell. In January, 1993 I was working as a substitute teacher in Calif. I did not have health insurance, mostly because I was young and healthy and didn't think I needed it. Besides, as soon as I was hired by the district the next school year, I would have full bennies. Unfortunately, I was hit by a nasty pneumonia bug and ended up in the ER, then in the hospital (it nearly killed me). In the ER, they asked if I had insurance and I said 'no'. They treated me anyways. By law, they HAD to. As I was being discharged later, an administrator approached me and said they did not have my insurance info for billing. I told her I didn't have insurance, whereupon she blinked a bit and said "oh, well, we'll take 25 % off you bill". That was my first clue about what happens when someone else is paying your medical bills. Costs go UP!
The irony of this story is that from my hospital bed I watched Bill Clinton's innaugeration on TV. A few months later, Hilary started her universal health care campaign. Some of the main points she argued were that "millions of Americans are denied health care because they don't have insurance", "people are being turned away from hospitals because they don't have coverage". "If you oppose it, you're for letting people die", or words thereof. My recent experience told me otherwise. That was my first clue as to what the universal health care push was and is all about. A government power grab based on lies and demagoguery.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/20/2008 10:03:25 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 73
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly
when the rich man asked JESUS what do I need to do to be saved, JESUS told the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor [according to Matthew] So then was JESUS coveting that man's money? JESUS also said it is easier for a man to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. [also according to Matthew], so go figure.
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
When are you giving all you have to the poor? Of course I should be stunned if you haven't already, right? -John
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
When did all of the rich people in the US come to you and ask how to be saved? Or is it that you think poverty=rightousness? Because to be poor is not necessarily your ticket into the kingdom. So your going to have to do better than that.
I think that Who's Your Dolly made a good point. The passage referred to is Matthew 19:16-26:
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
John and Sophie, rather than replying to Who's Your Dolly through a series of other questions, maybe you could try answering Who's Your Dolly's question (which is a good one in the context of this debate), or at least give your interpretation on these verses. That is, was Jesus coveting the rich man's money when he challenged him to give it all to the poor? Or was he wrong to ask the rich man to do this, even though the money didn't belong to him (Jesus)? Or was Jesus saying that poverty=rightousness in these verses?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 12:41:03 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1445
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
HOARDING is in no way STEWARDING. No where does God say to deny the poor so you can hoard riches. If you know anywhere in the Word where it tells us to hoard His wealth, let me know.
Sorry, but I've read the Ten Commandments quite a few times and nowhere in there does it say we get to steal from the rich or covet what they have if we've looked closely at it and have decided that they are hoarding.
Whether or not a rich person is doing what God wants them to is not your problem. It's not my problem. It's their problem, it's between them and God, and He will deal with it. We do not need to fret and frown and try to get the government to make the rich people do what God wants them to. That's wrong.
"Hoarding" verse. Hmm.
Proverbs 21:20 The wise man saves for the future but the foolish man spends whatever he gets.
Saving is wise. Whether or not we are saving money that we should be doing something else with is something God will let us know.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 12:46:46 AM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
Stop allowing hospitals to charge insurance companies quadruple what they charge someone paying cash. I imagine that would be a fine place to start. Uhhh, they don't. My gall bladder bill was close to $20K. I paid $150. The total amount my insurance company paid was somewhere under $2K. i assure you that had I not had insurance, the hospital would have been after me for the entire balance. They give HUGE discounts to insurance companies.
quote:
Many people can afford insurance and simply choose to risk it and not obtain coverage because they figure they save money. These folks are also listed in the "uninsured" category when they do not have to be. I have yet to meet one person who can afford insurance and decides to forego it just because they don't want to spend the money. Someone making $10-$12 an hour cannot afford hundreds of dollars per month for insurance.
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Everybody has access to health care regardless of their ability to pay. It's the law. Yup, at the local county hospital where you might die quicker than if you don't go in. And then they will bill you for the full amount of whatever bill they dream up. And I have yet to meet one person who has had the hospital give them a discount simply because they have no insurance or money. I've known far more who ended up in bankruptcy to keep from being sued for money they don't have.
quote:
And what happens to those people who get the care and then can't pay? They get harassed by debt collectors regardless of their efforts to get assistance in paying the bills. That's part of the problem that needs to be fixed. Thank you!
quote:
I told her I didn't have insurance, whereupon she blinked a bit and said "oh, well, we'll take 25 % off you bill". That was my first clue about what happens when someone else is paying your medical bills. Doesn't happen around here. Part of the problem is that not all hospitals do this and the ones that do are a distinct minority. If they all did that it might be great. But taking 25% off a $20K bill still leaves you with a $15K bill - which most average working people cannot pay.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 1:25:42 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Stop allowing hospitals to charge insurance companies quadruple what they charge someone paying cash. I imagine that would be a fine place to start. Uhhh, they don't. My gall bladder bill was close to $20K. I paid $150. The total amount my insurance company paid was somewhere under $2K. i assure you that had I not had insurance, the hospital would have been after me for the entire balance. They give HUGE discounts to insurance companies.
Uhhh, yes they do. I am sorry if you have not personally had the experience but it goes on all the time. Insurance companies will fight the costs but the hospitals really do charge more than they charge to someone without insurance paying cash.
quote:
quote:
Many people can afford insurance and simply choose to risk it and not obtain coverage because they figure they save money. These folks are also listed in the "uninsured" category when they do not have to be. I have yet to meet one person who can afford insurance and decides to forego it just because they don't want to spend the money. Someone making $10-$12 an hour cannot afford hundreds of dollars per month for insurance.
Just because you have not met them does not mean they do not exist. I have met them. And I wonder if those making $10-$12 an hour have cell phones, cable and internet? It's about priority I suppose.
quote:
quote:
Everybody has access to health care regardless of their ability to pay. It's the law. Yup, at the local county hospital where you might die quicker than if you don't go in. And then they will bill you for the full amount of whatever bill they dream up. And I have yet to meet one person who has had the hospital give them a discount simply because they have no insurance or money. I've known far more who ended up in bankruptcy to keep from being sued for money they don't have.
Oh well I suppose now we ought to send those without health insurance who pay nothing towards a premium to a better hospital than most in the average family use now, hmm?
quote:
quote:
And what happens to those people who get the care and then can't pay? They get harassed by debt collectors regardless of their efforts to get assistance in paying the bills. That's part of the problem that needs to be fixed. Thank you!
Yes, debt collector harassment! Boy, we should have just let those people die and saved them from the horror! 
quote:
quote:
I told her I didn't have insurance, whereupon she blinked a bit and said "oh, well, we'll take 25 % off you bill". That was my first clue about what happens when someone else is paying your medical bills. Doesn't happen around here. Part of the problem is that not all hospitals do this and the ones that do are a distinct minority. If they all did that it might be great. But taking 25% off a $20K bill still leaves you with a $15K bill - which most average working people cannot pay.
Again, just because it has never happened to you does not mean it is false. And I'm sorry to say that most hospitals will work out payment plans if need be. Sending even a few dollars a week will keep them satisfied, even if it takes years to pay back the debt. I don't care how much you make if you cannot send a few dollars a week to a place that possibly saved your life or saved your ability to work and make money then that is sad.
I wonder what some people on these forums would do if they lived somewhere else in the world and TRULY did not have access to healthcare.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 1:37:06 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
John and Sophie, rather than replying to Who's Your Dolly through a series of other questions, maybe you could try answering Who's Your Dolly's question (which is a good one in the context of this debate), or at least give your interpretation on these verses. That is, was Jesus coveting the rich man's money when he challenged him to give it all to the poor?
No, the rich man asked Him what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus answered.
quote:
Or was he wrong to ask the rich man to do this, even though the money didn't belong to him (Jesus)?
No, but the difference is he was asking and not forcing.
quote:
Or was Jesus saying that poverty=rightousness in these verses?
Certainly not, although I'm actually answering my own question in this case.
I was pretty sure we had already covered these topics somewhere more towards the beginning of this thread however. It seems that this dead horse has not finished receiving his beating though....
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 1:59:20 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
jkdjr25
And what happens to those people who get the care and then can't pay? They get harassed by debt collectors regardless of their efforts to get assistance in paying the bills. That's part of the problem that needs to be fixed.
A totally separate issue. The point is they get the care. It happened to me once. (refer to my post #247 on this thread). We worked out a payment schedule. My family helped a little. That's life. And the hospital was very patient and understanding. I'm sure there are some cases like you claim, but again, the rhetoric doesn't match reality.
My previous post:
quote:
backrowbaptist
I have a story to tell. In January, 1993 I was working as a substitute teacher in Calif. I did not have health insurance, mostly because I was young and healthy and didn't think I needed it. Besides, as soon as I was hired by the district the next school year, I would have full bennies. Unfortunately, I was hit by a nasty pneumonia bug and ended up in the ER, then in the hospital (it nearly killed me). In the ER, they asked if I had insurance and I said 'no'. They treated me anyways. By law, they HAD to. As I was being discharged later, an administrator approached me and said they did not have my insurance info for billing. I told her I didn't have insurance, whereupon she blinked a bit and said "oh, well, we'll take 25 % off you bill". That was my first clue about what happens when someone else is paying your medical bills. Costs go UP!
The irony of this story is that from my hospital bed I watched Bill Clinton's innaugeration on TV. A few months later, Hilary started her universal health care campaign. Some of the main points she argued were that "millions of Americans are denied health care because they don't have insurance", "people are being turned away from hospitals because they don't have coverage". "If you oppose it, you're for letting people die", or words thereof. My recent experience told me otherwise. That was my first clue as to what the universal health care push was and is all about. A government power grab based on lies and demagoguery.
It's not a seperate issue at all. Payment is part and parcel of the problem when there are too many people who can't pay for one reason or another. I've gone over my situation at length only to be told that it didn't count or that I was somehow coveting other people's stuff because I need help. That's the attitude that a lot of people who need get face and that's why we need a better system in place to help them get it easier and with less hassle.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 2:14:53 AM
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drnick
Posts: 152
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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I thought there was a difference between immediate life-saving treatment (like after a car crash) and long-term treatment for a potentially fatal condition such as kidney failure. You get the emergency treatment, but if you keep having to go for dialysis, shall we say, it's pay up or bye bye.
And cancer treatments, diabetes, heart disease, MS, ALD, all that sort of thing that required ongoing specialist intervention.
And non-life threatening things like hip replacements.
_____________________________
Who needs new music. Everyone knows Rock attained perfection in 1974. -- Homer Simpson
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 2:15:56 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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jkdjr25, it is not that you are in need of help that gives the impression of covetousness, it is the fact that you want the government to force a certain group of people to help you that leads some to believe that.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 2:28:04 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 73
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
John and Sophie, rather than replying to Who's Your Dolly through a series of other questions, maybe you could try answering Who's Your Dolly's question (which is a good one in the context of this debate), or at least give your interpretation on these verses. That is, was Jesus coveting the rich man's money when he challenged him to give it all to the poor?
No, the rich man asked Him what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus answered.
quote:
Or was he wrong to ask the rich man to do this, even though the money didn't belong to him (Jesus)?
No, but the difference is he was asking and not forcing.
quote:
Or was Jesus saying that poverty=rightousness in these verses?
Certainly not, although I'm actually answering my own question in this case.
I was pretty sure we had already covered these topics somewhere more towards the beginning of this thread however. It seems that this dead horse has not finished receiving his beating though....
Sophie, apologies. I simply don't have time to read everything in this thread. However, if it has already been covered, I won't pursue the issue any further. Thanks for your answer.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 2:33:03 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
John and Sophie, rather than replying to Who's Your Dolly through a series of other questions, maybe you could try answering Who's Your Dolly's question (which is a good one in the context of this debate), or at least give your interpretation on these verses. That is, was Jesus coveting the rich man's money when he challenged him to give it all to the poor?
No, the rich man asked Him what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus answered.
quote:
Or was he wrong to ask the rich man to do this, even though the money didn't belong to him (Jesus)?
No, but the difference is he was asking and not forcing.
quote:
Or was Jesus saying that poverty=rightousness in these verses?
Certainly not, although I'm actually answering my own question in this case.
I was pretty sure we had already covered these topics somewhere more towards the beginning of this thread however. It seems that this dead horse has not finished receiving his beating though....
Sophie, apologies. I simply don't have time to read everything in this thread. However, if it has already been covered, I won't pursue the issue any further. Thanks for your answer.
Cheers,
Clayton.
This thread has gotten pretty long, hasn't it?  And it was actually longer yet because it started in another topic before this thread was created! I'm just one of those who has been posting the whole way through so sometimes it gets frustrating! Sorry if my reply to you was snippy!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 2:58:21 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
jkdjr25, it is not that you are in need of help that gives the impression of covetousness, it is the fact that you want the government to force a certain group of people to help you that leads some to believe that.
Let me reiterate that tax money is not theft. My desire to see public monies (i.e. taxes) used for the public good isn't even remotely based on being covetous and I resent the implication that it does.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 12:18:55 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6993
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
jkdjr25, it is not that you are in need of help that gives the impression of covetousness, it is the fact that you want the government to force a certain group of people to help you that leads some to believe that.
Let me reiterate that tax money is not theft. My desire to see public monies (i.e. taxes) used for the public good isn't even remotely based on being covetous and I resent the implication that it does.
I agree with you.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 12:25:27 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 12:26:54 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6993
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.
There are a lot of things that I'd like to see the gov't stop supporting, health care isn't one of them.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 3:06:06 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.
Straw man argument.
I've never supported "loads of new taxes" I simplly support a sliding scale based on incomce, that's hardly a new idea.
But hey let's just get rid of taxes all together. Then we can have the so called "free market" run everything and the poor will just be worse and worse off while the haves control everthing more than they already do. Maybe we should set up some more workhouses like they used to do things, then we wouldn't have to even look at those filthy poor people. Nothing like the sweet satisfaction of keeping one's money to one's self to warm the cockles of the heart eh?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 3:27:22 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.
but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 4:20:11 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.
Straw man argument.
I've never supported "loads of new taxes" I simplly support a sliding scale based on incomce, that's hardly a new idea.
You're right. We already have medicare and medicaid. And they are working quite well, no?
quote:
But hey let's just get rid of taxes all together. Then we can have the so called "free market" run everything and the poor will just be worse and worse off while the haves control everthing more than they already do. Maybe we should set up some more workhouses like they used to do things, then we wouldn't have to even look at those filthy poor people. Nothing like the sweet satisfaction of keeping one's money to one's self to warm the cockles of the heart eh?
Nothing like waiting for the government to reach into someone else's pocket and then proclaim yourself as some sort of Robin Hood type saviour either, eh?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 4:21:25 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.
but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.
No one is stopping you from selling all you own and giving the money to the poor tracydolls.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:03:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
John and Sophie, rather than replying to Who's Your Dolly through a series of other questions, maybe you could try answering Who's Your Dolly's question (which is a good one in the context of this debate), or at least give your interpretation on these verses.
Not really....
quote:
That is, was Jesus coveting the rich man's money when he challenged him to give it all to the poor?
Of course not Jesus wouldn't do such a thing...Now... Man on the other hand, you bet...
quote:
Or was he wrong to ask the rich man to do this, even though the money didn't belong to him (Jesus)?
Of course not, the motives of Jesus cannot be questioned... Now man on the other hand...
quote:
Or was Jesus saying that poverty=rightousness in these verses?
Nope... That not a righteous judgment... To judge the rich guilty simple because they are rich isn't biblical and to say that poverty equates to righteousness doesn't add up either...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:11:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Let me reiterate that tax money is not the ft.
It can be... When those in charge do so to garner favor and or use it in a punitive manner it's stealing...
quote:
My desire to see public monies (i.e. taxes) used for the public good isn't even remotely based on being covetous and I resent the implication that it does.
That's the way it goes, those who believe the government is taxing in a tyrannical manner resent the implication that comes with that belief...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:12:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.
but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.
The bible says the church is to help the poor..
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:14:28 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.
Straw man argument.
I've never supported "loads of new taxes" I simplly support a sliding scale based on incomce, that's hardly a new idea.
You're right. We already have medicare and medicaid. And they are working quite well, no?
quote:
But hey let's just get rid of taxes all together. Then we can have the so called "free market" run everything and the poor will just be worse and worse off while the haves control everthing more than they already do. Maybe we should set up some more workhouses like they used to do things, then we wouldn't have to even look at those filthy poor people. Nothing like the sweet satisfaction of keeping one's money to one's self to warm the cockles of the heart eh?
Nothing like waiting for the government to reach into someone else's pocket and then proclaim yourself as some sort of Robin Hood type saviour either, eh?
1. Medicare and Medicaid don't actually work. I know becaue I'm still waiting on my own Medicaid appeal ruling. It's set up to not work, despite what proponents say about it. There needs to be a fix for the system so the people who really do need the help can get it. That's all most people want because it's just plain common sense.
2. Nice touch with the self righteous indignation there. Epic fail but a nice try none the less.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:14:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I've never supported "loads of new taxes"
If you advocate the government getting involved in health care you can't help but support loads of new taxes...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/21/2008 5:22:10 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I've never supported "loads of new taxes"
If you advocate the government getting involved in health care you can't help but support loads of new taxes...
John
BZZT! another strawman.
This is grossly inacurrate. By overhauling the system and cutting the nonsensical things, like studying cow poop, the money is there. It just takes the will to see it through.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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