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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

In a country of billionaires how can we possibly justify poverty?
In a country of a surplus of sparsely filled church buildings and palatial governmental buildings how can we justify homelessness.
In a country of overfed overindulgent overweight consumers how can we justify hunger?

Ok, well first of all I think we need to take into consideration that what is deemed poverty in the US is the equivalent of great riches in other countries. And no one is "justifying" any of these things, but what responsibility does the person in poverty have to help themself? How much of their situation is due to their poor choices in life? How much could they help if they start making better decisions and really try hard to better themselves?

Same thing goes for the homeless. The number of buildings has nothing to do with it. I have never heard of people being homeless because of a shortage of housing, so the number of buildings that are massive and extravagant do not really come into play. But what about the fact that most homeless are in their position due to drug or alcohol use? I am not saying all but most. Do they not have the blame for their position? How is it the fault of those who have houses?

And hunger in the US is the same as poverty. Not too many folks are starving like they are in some third world countries.

There are already programs in place to help such people as well, are there not? I don't think it is a matter of people trying to justify that these conditions exist, it is merely facing the reality that they do and they always will because there are people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and even do things that will damage their quality of life. It is hard to save people from their own carelessness and stupidity, if that is what got them in their situation.

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Nobody wants to think beyond the "holy dollar" anymore. How did we allow ourselves to become so twisted? Its not BIBLICALLY CORRECT no matter how politically correct some may think it is.

Last I checked God was not a political Being, but a REAL people Person Who tells us to follow Him and not to trust in chariots and horses and the root of all evil.

What is YOUR god saying?

As far as this goes, the only thing I really have to ask is if we are not supposed to value money, why do you place so much hope in money as if it is the only way out for some people? If having money corrupts, then why would you want to give freely this poison to the poor and homeless?

It is not really a question that I expect to be answered but the point is is that we all think about money, because it is what gets us by. It is what buys the groceries and pays the mortgage and heats the home in the winter. Money is needed to live. I just feel that there should not be forced charity to give to those who refuse to take care of themselves. Free drug rehab and financial planning maybe, but not just handing out funds to people who say they don't have enough, that is not the best we can do to help.

Money when used as God intends us to use it is not evil. It is only when we covet it and hoard it in an effort to secure our own future that it can become a god unto itself. When we disperse anything God has entrusted us with to help another it is pleasing to Him, money, goods, time, energy, effort, whatever things and talents He has bestowed upon us as a GIFT to be SHARED with others, not as a means to do without Him and lean upon ourselves as the author of our security. Money is a means not an end. It's just one of His many many gifts that He gives us to enable us to do His work, not to enable us to feel all safe and secure over our mounting bank accounts. That's my message.

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I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

I'm sorry but that is an extremely weak defense of your position. Whether it belongs to the rich or belongs to God, if you want what does NOT belong to you to be used as YOU say and feel the ones it does belong to are undeserving then it is covetousness, plain and simple. There is no other way to explain it. Why do you spend so much time worrying about what others have? If God will provide YOU with everything you need, why not rely on Him to provide the poor their needs as well then and forget about bleeding the rich dry?

You cannot have it both ways. Either you feel the rich are undeserving and need to "wise up" and start sharing the wealth as you see fit, or you are not covetous and you deal with what the Lord gave you and leave everyone else to do the same. You're either jealous or you're not. There is no middle ground IMO.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

Oh boy...

John

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ORIGINAL: Zhi

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I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

Hmm. Well, if it's all God's property then why does there need to be a Law about "Thou shalt not covet" anyway? If it's all God's property, then "Thou shalt not steal" shouldn't be a big deal either, hmm?

Instead, out of ten laws, we have TWO that deal with the fact that "your neighbor's property is your neighbor's property, LEAVE IT ALONE".

Does everything ultimately belong to God? Well, yes, but in His Law He has specifically instructed that we aren't to interfere with His decisions regarding who should be stewarding what.

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

And hunger in the US is the same as poverty. Not too many folks are starving like they are in some third world countries.

I heartily agree with your post and especially your statement shown above. I worked in a supermarket for a while and I was always amazed at the amount of people on food stamps who were obese. All the homeless guys in our neighborhood are overweight as well. I am not saying that they don't have other difficulties but no one dies of starvation in this country.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

Rather I am concerned for those who go without because of the DISOBEDIENCE of others, and that includes those rich that hoard their riches and watch their neighbors starve, or go homeless, or die due to untreated medical needs. God doesn't FORCE us to use HIS resources [including money] to serve Him, but don't be deceived, He KNOWS what we are doing with what He has given each of us, and KNOWS who is trying to use these resources to serve Him and who is HOARDING them and IGNORING His Word.

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I am also concerned for the souls of those who misuse or hide the talents God has given them because disobedience is dangerous to the soul. Only God knows how dangerous this disobedience is to the condition of one's soul, or what the final judgment will mean for those who continue in disobedience. But it is cause for concern I believe because Jesus came to forgive our sins so our souls can be saved, but this also requires repentance on our part. Continuing in disobedience is not repentence is it?

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So my concern if for many people... the poor, the needy, the disabled, the sick, but also the disobedient, the greedy, the unbelievers, the prideful. We are all in danger of judgment. And we are instructed to warn our brothers when we see them in error. That's what I see when a person has an excess of God's dollars and insists that they [not God] personally own the money. and that "their" riches are for THEIR benefit only---I see a person in disobedience and error.

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So please stop accusing me of greed and covetousness... you don't know me or how I live my life...
I am working out my own salvation in fear and trembling...sound familiar? God's own Word is the only reliable source for how one should live if they want to please Him, and nowhere does the Bible mention hoarding as a virtue as far as I know, rather the BIBLE clearly tells us what to do with God's resources. Many if not most simply choose to ignore Him.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

Rather I am concerned for those who go without because of the DISOBEDIENCE of others, and that includes those rich that hoard their riches and watch their neighbors starve, or go homeless, or die due to untreated medical needs. God doesn't FORCE us to use HIS resources [including money] to serve Him, but don't be deceived, He KNOWS what we are doing with what He has given each of us, and KNOWS who is trying to use these resources to serve Him and who is HOARDING them and IGNORING His Word.

Ok, first of all, no one is going without because of the "disobedience of others". That is a ridiculous statement. Anything I lack is in no way due to the fact that someone else may have it. I could have it as well if I put my mind to it, the same way that many rich started out in poverty and worked their way up in life. There would still be poor in this country even if there were no rich.

Secondly, if God doesn't force anyone to use their resources the way he wishes, don't you think it's wrong for other human beings to do so and then say that it is the will of God? How does that make any sense?

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I am also concerned for the souls of those who misuse or hide the talents God has given them because disobedience is dangerous to the soul. Only God knows how dangerous this disobedience is to the condition of one's soul, or what the final judgment will mean for those who continue in disobedience. But it is cause for concern I believe because Jesus came to forgive our sins so our souls can be saved, but this also requires repentance on our part. Continuing in disobedience is not repentence is it?

Oh so if we just take all their money away they will become followers of Christ and their souls will be saved? Are you serious? And how is it that it is saving the souls of the poor to give them money or aid? Socialism has nothing to do with repentance or healing the soul, it has to do with greed and envy.

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So my concern if for many people... the poor, the needy, the disabled, the sick, but also the disobedient, the greedy, the unbelievers, the prideful. We are all in danger of judgment. And we are instructed to warn our brothers when we see them in error. That's what I see when a person has an excess of God's dollars and insists that they [not God] personally own the money. and that "their" riches are for THEIR benefit only---I see a person in disobedience and error.

But you have not spoken of warning the rich and sharing the bible with them to try to encourage them to help willingly. Also I might add that being a Christian and being saved has more to it than just how you spend your money. But that would be being concerned. All you have said is that you think it is a good idea to steal their money in order to give it to others who you think are better fit to receive God's blessing. This seems more like envy than concern IMO.

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So please stop accusing me of greed and covetousness... you don't know me or how I live my life...
I am working out my own salvation in fear and trembling...sound familiar? God's own Word is the only reliable source for how one should live if they want to please Him, and nowhere does the Bible mention hoarding as a virtue as far as I know, rather the BIBLE clearly tells us what to do with God's resources. Many if not most simply choose to ignore Him.

I am going to call it as I see it, I am sorry if that offends you. And I do not need to know you or how you live your life, I am not speaking of your whole life I am speaking of this topic which you have readily supplied me with enough evidence for me to come to the conclusion that you simply have a chip on your shoulder against the rich.

And you are right, God's word is the source for how we should lead our lives. It doesn't mention hoarding as a virtue, but neither does it mention stealing as a virtue either, no matter what the cause.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

Rather I am concerned for those who go without because of the DISOBEDIENCE of others, and that includes those rich that hoard their riches and watch their neighbors starve, or go homeless, or die due to untreated medical needs. God doesn't FORCE us to use HIS resources [including money] to serve Him, but don't be deceived, He KNOWS what we are doing with what He has given each of us, and KNOWS who is trying to use these resources to serve Him and who is HOARDING them and IGNORING His Word.

Ok, first of all, no one is going without because of the "disobedience of others". That is a ridiculous statement. Anything I lack is in no way due to the fact that someone else may have it. I could have it as well if I put my mind to it, the same way that many rich started out in poverty and worked their way up in life. There would still be poor in this country even if there were no rich.

Secondly, if God doesn't force anyone to use their resources the way he wishes, don't you think it's wrong for other human beings to do so and then say that it is the will of God? How does that make any sense?

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I am also concerned for the souls of those who misuse or hide the talents God has given them because disobedience is dangerous to the soul. Only God knows how dangerous this disobedience is to the condition of one's soul, or what the final judgment will mean for those who continue in disobedience. But it is cause for concern I believe because Jesus came to forgive our sins so our souls can be saved, but this also requires repentance on our part. Continuing in disobedience is not repentence is it?

Oh so if we just take all their money away they will become followers of Christ and their souls will be saved? Are you serious? And how is it that it is saving the souls of the poor to give them money or aid? Socialism has nothing to do with repentance or healing the soul, it has to do with greed and envy.

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So my concern if for many people... the poor, the needy, the disabled, the sick, but also the disobedient, the greedy, the unbelievers, the prideful. We are all in danger of judgment. And we are instructed to warn our brothers when we see them in error. That's what I see when a person has an excess of God's dollars and insists that they [not God] personally own the money. and that "their" riches are for THEIR benefit only---I see a person in disobedience and error.

But you have not spoken of warning the rich and sharing the bible with them to try to encourage them to help willingly. Also I might add that being a Christian and being saved has more to it than just how you spend your money. But that would be being concerned. All you have said is that you think it is a good idea to steal their money in order to give it to others who you think are better fit to receive God's blessing. This seems more like envy than concern IMO.

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So please stop accusing me of greed and covetousness... you don't know me or how I live my life...
I am working out my own salvation in fear and trembling...sound familiar? God's own Word is the only reliable source for how one should live if they want to please Him, and nowhere does the Bible mention hoarding as a virtue as far as I know, rather the BIBLE clearly tells us what to do with God's resources. Many if not most simply choose to ignore Him.

I am going to call it as I see it, I am sorry if that offends you. And I do not need to know you or how you live your life, I am not speaking of your whole life I am speaking of this topic which you have readily supplied me with enough evidence for me to come to the conclusion that you simply have a chip on your shoulder against the rich.

And you are right, God's word is the source for how we should lead our lives. It doesn't mention hoarding as a virtue, but neither does it mention stealing as a virtue either, no matter what the cause.

At no time have I advocated stealing from anyone. And I don't have any chip on my shoulder. Do you? Please understand that it is a terribly dangerous thing indeed to steal from GOD and when anyone does NOT do what He tells us in His Word to do with those riches He entrusts us with then we are stealing from HIM. Am I not warning the rich right now? Have I not been doing this over and over in my posts? Have I ever said to take God's money away from anyone? You keep referring to "their" money and I keep trying to explain that no man owns any MONEY or any THING in this world.. everything is a GIFT from God to be used in the manner He lays out in HIS word. If it is put to any other use it is a sin against God. That in my way of thinking is very much a warning to all of us including those who believe they OWN their money [or lands or possessions, or talents, or areas of expertise , etc.] and can do whatever they want with whatever they have been entrusted with, with no eternal consequences. God holds us accountable for what we do with what He entrusts to us. To what extent this impacts salvation I suggest you go to the word and see for yourself what GOD says about it because I do NOT wish to give you any reason to start accusing me of judgement.
[/q]

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

At no time have I advocated stealing from anyone. And I don't have any chip on my shoulder. Do you? Please understand that it is a terribly dangerous thing indeed to steal from GOD and when anyone does NOT do what He tells us in His Word to do with those riches He entrusts us with then we are stealing from HIM. Am I not warning the rich right now? Have I not been doing this over and over in my posts? Have I ever said to take God's money away from anyone? You keep referring to "their" money and I keep trying to explain that no man owns any MONEY or any THING in this world.. everything is a GIFT from God to be used in the manner He lays out in HIS word. If it is put to any other use it is a sin against God. That in my way of thinking is very much a warning to all of us including those who believe they OWN their money [or lands or possessions, or talents, or areas of expertise , etc.] and can do whatever they want with whatever they have been entrusted with, with no eternal consequences. God holds us accountable for what we do with what He entrusts to us. To what extent this impacts salvation I suggest you go to the word and see for yourself what GOD says about it because I do NOT wish to give you any reason to start accusing me of judgement.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

I'm not coveting the money the rich have, because its not theirs to begin with, and I don't have to covet what God owns because He desires that I prosper and be in health and that He will supply all my needs. The rich need to wise up though, because they are hoarding God's property.

Oh boy...

John

I'm sorry you don't get it John, and pray someday you do, for your sake.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

At no time have I advocated stealing from anyone. And I don't have any chip on my shoulder. Do you? Please understand that it is a terribly dangerous thing indeed to steal from GOD and when anyone does NOT do what He tells us in His Word to do with those riches He entrusts us with then we are stealing from HIM. Am I not warning the rich right now? Have I not been doing this over and over in my posts? Have I ever said to take God's money away from anyone? You keep referring to "their" money and I keep trying to explain that no man owns any MONEY or any THING in this world.. everything is a GIFT from God to be used in the manner He lays out in HIS word. If it is put to any other use it is a sin against God. That in my way of thinking is very much a warning to all of us including those who believe they OWN their money [or lands or possessions, or talents, or areas of expertise , etc.] and can do whatever they want with whatever they have been entrusted with, with no eternal consequences. God holds us accountable for what we do with what He entrusts to us. To what extent this impacts salvation I suggest you go to the word and see for yourself what GOD says about it because I do NOT wish to give you any reason to start accusing me of judgement.

Ok, well if you could please tell me how wanting the government to forcefully take from those who are wealthy and give it to those who are poor is not stealing from the wealthy that would clear things up. And if you are in favor of such a move you are in favor of theft, plain and simple. What if the government then decided YOU have way too much and started taking your money? Hmmm? Then you can no longer help as you see fit?

And let's not get nit-picky and ridiculous about the who owns what debate. For the sake of this conversation, I am going to stick with the normal-speak of what I buy I own and what you buy you own etc. We acknowledge that God has provided us all with everything though ok?

Anyway, it seems you have run out of arguments that favor your views and are in a desperate attempt to throw the subject off in another realm. If your idea is to bring the rich into salvation, please tell me how you would go about this.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

when the rich man asked JESUS what do I need to do to be saved, JESUS told the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor [according to Matthew] So then was JESUS coveting that man's money? JESUS also said it is easier for a man to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. [also according to Matthew], so go figure.

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

when the rich man asked JESUS what do I need to do to be saved, JESUS told the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor [according to Matthew] So then was JESUS coveting that man's money? JESUS also said it is easier for a man to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. [also according to Matthew], so go figure.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly

when the rich man asked JESUS what do I need to do to be saved, JESUS told the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor [according to Matthew] So then was JESUS coveting that man's money? JESUS also said it is easier for a man to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. [also according to Matthew], so go figure.

When did all of the rich people in the US come to you and ask how to be saved?

Or is it that you think poverty=rightousness? Because to be poor is not necessarily your ticket into the kingdom. So your going to have to do better than that.