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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/2/2008 7:39:15 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 557
Joined: 1/11/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
kelman,
I accept your stance, but I strongly disagree.
Is that based on my being spiritually blind?
I discuss people's theology not their relationship with God.
Kelman,
As nice as that sounds, that's just simply not true.
for instance
quote:
Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation. Post #268
quote:
Kelman writes:
Since there is, in fact, scriptural evidence, what is nonsense is essentially your calling Scripture nonsense. John the Baptist is the primary example. You're so wrapped-up in your free will that you can allow God no part in bringing a baby, or anyone else for that matter, to salvation.
and also:
quote:
To the rest, it remains nothing more than an intellectual exercise. (post #270)
You however scape out on the direct question by saying:
quote:
I discuss people's theology not their relationship with God.
The question was "I accept your stance but I strongly disagree. Does that make me spiritually blind?"
You have already answered the question. This is when "theology" ceases being theology and becomes doctrinal pride. (Which Kelman, my brother, you DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON! lol)
The answer from your posts is virtually "Yes, you are spiritually blind."
The interesting part is if that is true then there is no possible way I can be one of the elect. UNLESS it is possible to see something spiritually but not recognize it intellectually. That simply can't be true, because any other belief or "theology" other than the one you present would be a heresy and apostasy.
So your theology (like many others) passes judgment on me and anyone else that does not see things theologically as you do. So you ARE discussing peoples relationship with God. You are just "spiritually blind" that you are doing so.
Believe as you will Kelman, discuss away, debate even, but keep the sin of Doctrinal Pride in view. We all struggle with it. It has effected the church for MANY years.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/2/2008 10:04:55 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The point of this thread, since you've missed it, is the issue of un-accountability. We are all born in sin and unsaved, yet un-accountable, whether you will admit it or not. The issue here is this: what does God do witht the un-accountable? The point you miss is that ALL humanity is accountable.
Only when one reaches a level of comprehension. Your view of infants is just silly. It has no merit. They are not accountable because they are unable to comprehend either God nor their own state of being.
quote:
quote:
Your theology attempts to answer the question by claiming that God decides who will believe, therefore who will be saved. Your theology goes to the extreme by having to claim that God "gives faith" to infants who die, which cannot be supported anywhere.
I don't know about it being supported "anywhere". But, I do know it is supported by Scripture.
By "anywhere" I was referring to Scripture. What is it that you think is support from Scripture?
quote:
quote:
My theology is that we are all born spiritually dead (separted from God) and unsaved. Christ died for everyone in order to propitiate the Father. Those who die in a state of un-accountabity are saved because they weren't able to see or understand the evidence that God gives to everyone and therefore have an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God.
You've correctly outlined why your theology is so erroneous. You managed to get only one sentence correct.
Since you fail to explain your comments, you have no credibility. You can say what you want, but if you can't back it up with explanation or support, it is only your notion.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/2/2008 10:01:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And please answer why God sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter who brought the gospel to him. How could he be a believer apart from having the gospel?
What did he not believe? Where those who feared God and prayed to Him always in the OT not saved?
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/3/2008 10:15:27 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And please answer why God sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter who brought the gospel to him. How could he be a believer apart from having the gospel?
What did he not believe?
Your question doesn't anwwer my question. And I'm not sure what you are asking. Again, why did God send an angel to tell him to send for Peter?
I thought your view was that at the opening of Acts 10, Cornelius was a believer. Or was I mistaken?
quote:
Where those who feared God and prayed to Him always in the OT not saved?
Some were and some weren't. Not sure of your point here. My question to you was about Cornelius. From Acts 11:14, it should be clear to you that Cornelius at the beginning of Acts 10 was not a believer.
If you think Cornelius was a believer at the beginning of Acts 10, on what basis do you do so? Just beclause he was described as God fearing and praying?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/4/2008 5:28:11 PM
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Dagwat
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In the book of Genesis it states that man was created in the image of God. He was placed in the garden, a place of perfection, without pain, suffering and so on. A biblical parallel of Heaven. It was not until Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, that God kicked them out of that place of perfection, and pronounced upon them the wages of sin. Before they chose to disobey, God made it quite clear to them what the punishment would be if they disobeyed.
Infants are the purest form of mankind (the image of God) that we will ever see. I have to believe with all my heart that God (who also said He is no respecter of persons) allows infants into heaven, just as Adam and Eve were allowed in the garden of Eden. Until such infants, whom we'll call "small humans" make the same conscience choice to disobey God, as Adam and Eve did, until they are capable of making that same choice, they are secure in Heaven, a place of perfection.
They must be given the same instruction Adam and Eve were given, before they can be held accountable for disobedience. They must first be aware of what it means to disobey God. Not just disobedience to parents either, and they must also be able to understand what the eternal punishment is for such disobedience. They must first understand what Gods commandments are, and that they are not to break His commandments. Just like Adam and Eve, they must make a conscience choice to disobey, or they are innocent. Adam and Eve as you may recall were totally innocent of the fact that they were naked UNTIL they made a conscience decision to go against what God told them. If Jesus Christ is no respecter of persons, (He himself stated that) and if His word states (and it does) that it is not His will that any should perish, then each person is held accountable for their own choices and no more than their OWN choices. Anything else would make the word of God a lie.
Can you imagine heaven WITHOUT babies? Can you honestly imagine babies in hell? If that would tear your heart out, imagine what it would do to God's heart. Just common sense if nothing else. The very thought of babies in Hell would make anyone with a heart cringe, and since we are made in the image of God, it would obviously do the same to God's heart. Jesus spoke a lot of children, the innocent, the pure of heart, those with childlike faith, those who love unconditionally, you know, those "small humans". He told us to be like them, or WE wouldn't make it to heaven. And if that's what we must be like to get there, then there shouldn't be any doubt that that is where they will go if they die before having the same full understanding that Adam and Eve had.
It really shouldn't be a hard concept for anyone to understand unless they choose to make it a difficult mind boggling question.
As the young ones might say: "DUH"
_____________________________
God knows right where each of us are, and just how to find us, even when we don't want to be found. He doesn't have to send someone down to our level to reach us. He knows exactly how to draw us to His message and to where He has placed it.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/5/2008 3:35:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
The question was "I accept your stance but I strongly disagree. Does that make me spiritually blind?"
You have already answered the question. Yes, I know I have answered; and, I have answered it by saying I don't discuss people's relationships with God.
And, NOTHING you have posted has proved that "answer" to not be true.
quote:
As nice as that sounds, that's just simply not true.
for instance
quote
Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation. Post #268 And where in that am I speaking about any individual?....I'll tell you - no where.
quote:
Kelman writes:
Since there is, in fact, scriptural evidence, what is nonsense is essentially your calling Scripture nonsense. John the Baptist is the primary example. You're so wrapped-up in your free will that you can allow God no part in bringing a baby, or anyone else for that matter, to salvation.
Point out, if you can, where I am discussing anyone's relationship with God. You won't be able to. Clearly, I am discussing theology.
quote:
To the rest, it remains nothing more than an intellectual exercise. (post #270
It seems to me you're quite the disingenuous one. There is nothing here which could even remotely be considered discussing an individual's relationship with God.
quote:
You however scape out on the direct question by saying: Look, you're the one seeing things that are not there so whatever your problem is you've proved nothing about me here but plenty about yourself.
quote:
The answer from your posts is virtually "Yes, you are spiritually blind." Nope, that's the answer YOU see - not the answer that was given. Two entirely different things.
quote:
Believe as you will Kelman, discuss away, debate even, but keep the sin of Doctrinal Pride in view. We all struggle with it. We may all "struggle" with it; but, apparently, you have lost the "struggle" since you have overwhelmingly demonstrated yours.
So what...when you don't get the answer you want...you just make them up?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 1:49:12 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm not sure what you are asking.
What did he believe? Did he believe in God or not?
quote:
Some were and some weren't.
Why some and not others?
quote:
If you think Cornelius was a believer at the beginning of Acts 10, on what basis do you do so? Just beclause he was described as God fearing and praying?
Yes....
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 1:56:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dagwat
Infants are the purest form of mankind (the image of God) that we will ever see.
Children are not born with the spirit...
quote:
I have to believe with all my heart that God (who also said He is no respecter of persons) allows infants into heaven, just as Adam and Eve were allowed in the garden of Eden.
If children are granted automatic salvation that would make a God a respecter of persons...
quote:
Can you honestly imagine babies in hell?
Given babies were drowned in the flood and put to the sword by the command of God, yes....
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 1:35:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm not sure what you are asking.
What did he believe? Did he believe in God or not?[/quote[
He believed the evidence that God has made evident to mankind, as noted in Romans 1. iow, he believed that God existed.
quote:
quote:
Some were and some weren't.
Why some and not others?
Free choice among options.
[quote[quote:
If you think Cornelius was a believer at the beginning of Acts 10, on what basis do you do so? Just because he was described as God fearing and praying?
Yes....
Then, how do you explain Acts 11:13,14 which is Peter's recalling of what Cornelius told him when he showed up at Cornelius' house.
"And he (Cornelius) reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, send to Jappa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."
Now, since it is clear from 11:14 that the angel told Cornelius that Peter was going to bring words by which he would be saved, he couldn't have been saved at the beginning of Acts 10, when the angel appeared to him.
So, please explain how a believer could be unsaved.
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 1:37:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dagwat
Infants are the purest form of mankind (the image of God) that we will ever see.
Children are not born with the spirit...
quote:
I have to believe with all my heart that God (who also said He is no respecter of persons) allows infants into heaven, just as Adam and Eve were allowed in the garden of Eden.
If children are granted automatic salvation that would make a God a respecter of persons...
Or, it would make God a respector of the Work of His Son on behalf of the entire human race.
quote:
quote:
Can you honestly imagine babies in hell?
Given babies were drowned in the flood and put to the sword by the command of God, yes....John
Why do you equate physical death with spiritual death. They are not only not the same, they are not even remotely related.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 3:17:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
He believed the evidence that God has made evident to mankind, as noted in Romans 1. iow, he believed that God existed.
The verse in Romans speaks to the Godhead... Isn't that in reference to the Trinity? More than the mere existence in God... Why are you downplaying what creation is said to reveal in Romans 1?
quote:
Free choice among options.
That doesn't explain how people doing the samething and only some being saved according to you...
quote:
Then, how do you explain Acts 11:13,14 which is Peter's recalling of what Cornelius told him when he showed up at Cornelius' house.
I can't, no more than you can explain Act 10... Cornelius believed in God... Feared Him...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 3:19:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Or, it would make God a respector of the Work of His Son on behalf of the entire human race.
We are not talking about the human race, but a select group...
quote:
Why do you equate physical death with spiritual death. They are not only not the same, they are not even remotely related.
Are you contending that folks outside the ark were saved? Starnge considering that people that feared God and prayed may or may not be saved according to you...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 3:19:56 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
If children are granted automatic salvation that would make a God a respecter of persons...
If God elects some to salvation and others to damnation (as some believe), that makes Him a respecter of persons, since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
If God grants faith to some and withholds faith from others (as some believe) that too makes Him a respecter of persons, since all are commanded to believe and repent.
But God is no respecter of persons. And no one can say definitively that God grants salvation to infants or children who cannot give account. We accept this on the basis of the character of God and the finished work of Christ.
What we can say with absolute confidence is that:
1. God's grace is infinite in its scope -- God will have mercy on ALL who do not reject Him and despise His Son.
2. Christ's finished work on the Cross and in His resurrection is infinite in its application and efficacy.
3. Christ is indeed the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.
4. Christ is indeed the Savior of the world (of all men, and especially of those who believe).
5. Since faith is a condition of salvation, and faith comes by hearing the Gospel, those who cannot hear or understand the Gospel and thereby be convicted and convinced to believe, cannot meet that condition.
6. It is more than reasonable that God -- who is absolutely just, absolutely righteous, and absolutely gracious -- can and will save those who do not have the capacity to hear or understand the Gospel and thereby receive the Savior ( the physically deaf can read, therefore unless they are both deaf and blind, they are indeed acccountable).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 3:27:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
If God elects some to salvation and others to damnation (as some believe), that makes Him a respecter of persons, since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
All have sinned? Really... Hmmmm....
quote:
If God grants faith to some and withholds faith from others (as some believe) that too makes Him a respecter of persons, since all are commanded to believe and repent.
Only if you can show that God did so because the person moved God to do so.... God doing so according to His will and purpose doesn't make Him a respecter of persons...
quote:
What we can say with absolute confidence is that:
1. God's grace is infinite in its scope -- God will have mercy on ALL who do not reject Him and despise His Son.
Actually the bible says He will have mercy on whom He chooses and it qualifies that statement with the fact that man doesn't do anything to move God to do so, or not… His choice…
quote:
5. Since faith is a condition of salvation, and faith comes by hearing the Gospel, those who cannot hear or understand the Gospel and thereby be convicted and convinced to believe, cannot meet that condition.
6. It is more than reasonable that God -- who is absolutely just, absolutely righteous, and absolutely gracious -- can and will save those who do not have the capacity to hear or understand the Gospel and thereby receive the Savior ( the physically deaf can read, therefore unless they are both deaf and blind, they are indeed acccountable).
Actually the above seems to be more of a matter of intellect than faith...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 4:28:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
He believed the evidence that God has made evident to mankind, as noted in Romans 1. iow, he believed that God existed.
The verse in Romans speaks to the Godhead... Isn't that in reference to the Trinity? More than the mere existence in God... Why are you downplaying what creation is said to reveal in Romans 1?
I don't follow. How am I "downplaying" what creation reveals in Rom 1? "that which is known about God" is v.19. Please elaborate.
quote:
quote:
Free choice among options.
That doesn't explain how people doing the samething and only some being saved according to you...
Again, I don't follow. What does "people doing the same thing" mean? When faced with truth, such as what God has made evident to everyone about Himself, man is faced with a choice: to either believe the evidence or to reject/suppress it. Does that help?
quote:
quote:
Then, how do you explain Acts 11:13,14 which is Peter's recalling of what Cornelius told him when he showed up at Cornelius' house.
I can't, no more than you can explain Act 10... Cornelius believed in God... Feared Him...John
Huh? Of course I've explained it. He believed the evidence that God made evident to him, per Romans 1:19-20. Believing in the existence of God isn't salvific faith, as I'm sure you would agree. Cornelius recognized that God existed, and he reverenced Him and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:21.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 4:35:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Or, it would make God a respector of the Work of His Son on behalf of the entire human race.
We are not talking about the human race, but a select group...
The issue continues to be "salvation for the un-accountable". While you reject that anyone could even be un-accountable, I think babies are, since they cannot comprehend God as Creator, must less that they are sinners and that Christ died for them. But since Christ DID die for them, as long as they are un-accountable for understandning these things, they are saved because Christ died for them.
quote:
quote:
Why do you equate physical death with spiritual death. They are not only not the same, they are not even remotely related.
Are you contending that folks outside the ark were saved?
No. What is your point here?
quote:
Starnge considering that people that feared God and prayed may or may not be saved according to you...
Why do you keep insisting that Cornelius was saved at the beginning of Acts 10 when the angel told him to send for Peter who would give him words by which he would be saved? That is very strange to me; that you would consider Cornelius saved at the beginning of Acts 10 given what the angel told him.
You've got some 'splaining' to do. Please.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/6/2008 5:45:02 PM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
Didn't the apostle said that unless they hear they will not believe and unless they believe they will not be saved? Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation.
But, babies in the womb can hear with their spiritual ears if God so grants them this grace. Your unborn children were in the presense of the Gospel.
Faith is a gift from God, who is to say these babies were not given this gift? Scripture seems clear on the possibility. John the Baptist was saved "even from his mother's womb"(Luke 1:15).
Though, I don't know you, still, let me say I'm sorry for your precious loses.
Thanks, Kelman. I leave all these to the Lord and whatever the answer may be, the Lord be glorified.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/7/2008 1:53:13 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The issue continues to be "salvation for the un-accountable". While you reject that anyone could even be un-accountable, I think babies are, since they cannot comprehend God as Creator, must less that they are sinners and that Christ died for them. But since Christ DID die for them, as long as they are un-accountable for understandning these things, they are saved because Christ died for them.
Wishfullthinking verse 1:1?
quote:
No. What is your point here?
Ok... Were babies outside the ark?
quote:
That is very strange to me; that you would consider Cornelius saved at the beginning of Acts 10 given what the angel told him.
I find it just as strange that you believe two people can fear God and prayed to Him always and one of them will not be saved...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/7/2008 2:25:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
If God grants faith to some and withholds faith from others (as some believe) that too makes Him a respecter of persons, since all are commanded to believe and repent.
Only if you can show that God did so because the person moved God to do so.... God doing so according to His will and purpose doesn't make Him a respecter of persons...
God not being a "respecter of persons" is referring to Him including ALL kinds of men to whom the Gospel will go. This is plainly seen in:
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; -Acts 34:37
And we certainly see God "chooses" or has "respect" for some above others. God had "respect" for Abel but not Cain (Gen 4:4). God had "respect" to Israel but not her enemies (Exo 2:25; Lev 26:9; 2Ki 13:23; Psa 74:20).
Being a respecter of persons also holds the meaning of "justice". And, here it is God is NOT a repecter of persons as the Judges of Israel were not to be (2Ch 19:7; Act 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1Pe 1:17).
quote:
Ok... Were babies outside the ark? Exactly, the Flood, the destructions of Sodom et al are all pictures of God's judgment. And, you are precisely correct - babies were outside the Ark.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/7/2008 5:42:13 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I don't follow. How am I "downplaying" what creation reveals in Rom 1? "that which is known about God" is v.19. Please elaborate.
Ok...again...
The verse in Romans speaks to the Godhead... Isn't that in reference to the Trinity?
Any verse that speaks to the Godhead would be referencing the Trinity. Which verse are you referring to?
quote:
quote:
Again, I don't follow. What does "people doing the same thing" mean? When faced with truth, such as what God has made evident to everyone about Himself, man is faced with a choice: to either believe the evidence or to reject/suppress it. Does that help?
Nope... I asked:
Where those who feared God and prayed to Him always in the OT not saved?
You said: Some were and some weren't.
How can people doing the same thing come to different results?
Don't you agree that unbelievers can pray and fear God? Why not?
quote:
He believed the evidence that God made evident to him, per Romans 1:19-20. Believing in the existence of God isn't salvific faith, as I'm sure you would agree. Cornelius recognized that God existed, and he reverenced Him and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:21.
Just God? Isn't the truth of God in creation?
I don't know what you are getting at? Does creation reveal the Savior? No, it does not. I believe Romans 1 is speaking about the existence of God as Creator.
Do you agree or disagree that when God "makes evident to all" His existence, that man is faced with a choice: to either accept that evidence or reject that evidence?
I see Cornelius as one who accepted the evidence and sought God. I see fools as those wo suppress the truth of God's evidence, and don't seek God.
I also see God responding to Cornelius' seeking. I also see that God "gives them over to their own lusts" concerning those who suppress the truth.
If you disagree with these statements, please explain why.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/7/2008 5:49:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The issue continues to be "salvation for the un-accountable". While you reject that anyone could even be un-accountable, I think babies are, since they cannot comprehend God as Creator, must less that they are sinners and that Christ died for them. But since Christ DID die for them, as long as they are un-accountable for understandning these things, they are saved because Christ died for them.
Wishfullthinking verse 1:1?
Would you mind giving the whole address here? iow, which book?
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No. What is your point here?
Ok... Were babies outside the ark?Yes. What is your point?
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That is very strange to me; that you would consider Cornelius saved at the beginning of Acts 10 given what the angel told him.
I find it just as strange that you believe two people can fear God and prayed to Him always and one of them will not be saved...
Do you really mean that you are unaware that many unbelievers are aware of God and pray to Him, but reject the gospel? Why?
Again, given what Peter relayed about what Cornelius told him in Acts 11:14, why do continue to think that Cornelius was saved at the beginning of Acts 10?
What do you do with the FACT that the angel told Cornelius to "send for Peter, and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved".
If Cornelius was already saved, 11:14 makes absolutely no sense.
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