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Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 12:19:46 AM
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whatislove
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What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
Anyone care to clarify?
< Message edited by whatislove -- 6/11/2008 12:28:06 AM >
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 12:36:28 AM
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LCannon
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The apostle Paul said we're 'saved' when we claim the blood/obedience of Jesus, are 'being saved' by one's obedience, personal growth and vulnerability to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will be 'finally saved' when we see His Face in Glory. It's not my performance(thank God!)rather His Victory in conquering sin(arrogance not just 'sinning), death and the grave.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 12:41:05 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved?
I would contend that they cannot. I think what Jesus was speaking to was those who are sinners, and were comfortable with that. They felt no desire from God to change their ways. If someone is truly saved, then they have the Holy Spirit inside them, and He will not let their sin go un-convicted.
I think what Jesus is saying there is that if someone claims to follow Him, but their life is still characterized by sin, without any effort to change, then their claim is false, and they are still unsaved.
Remember, while works will never earn someone's salvation, they will be a natural result of that salvation. Ephesians 2:10 tells us as much, I believe.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 1:49:23 AM
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whatislove
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What about the verse that says that we should be perfect as our God is perfect?
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 2:17:12 AM
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justasheep
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quote:
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
I think it would be most helpful to finish the passage, Phill 2:14 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
This is a great paradox isn't it? How do we work with all of our might, knowing full well that it is God all along who is working in you? Even more than that we work for his good pleasure or His glory. I think simply put, this is what the bible terms "walking in the spirit." The true person who has been born again, has a new heart, new desires, even if these desires are ever so feeble. The good news is that our santification is not dependent upon us alone, for we know from this wonderful passage that God is working and willing in us, we can find great hope in that. Remember Jesus said that his yoke is easy and his burden is light, even as we struggle with all of our might to work out our salvation. Understanding that all of this "working" is actually a mighty work of God keeps us from becoming legalists and encourages us when our delight in the Lord isn't as it should be.
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 8:12:49 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What about the verse that says that we should be perfect as our God is perfect?
That wasn't Paul that said that but Jesus:"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48 NASB)
The key here is to discover what the word perfect means here.
The Greek word that was translated as perfect is: τέλειος teleios and it means:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
Now if you look at the verses leading up to this Jesus has been talking about how we are to behave, what our character is to look like. So definitions 2 and 4a are obviously the most likely meanings.
The Amplified Bible, since the people of that time and culture would have understood it, puts it in brackets so we know that it is inserted for clarity,reads this way: You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
Kennith Wuest in his paraphrase/commentary puts it more briefly, but equally well: Therefore, as for you, you shall be those who are complete in your character, even as your Father in heaven is complete in His being. (Matthew 5:38 Wuest's)
Hope this helps,
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 8:33:00 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
If we could save ourselves (in turn or otherwise), why would Jesus need to die to save us?
Our salvation is only through Jesus, His birth death and Resurrection.
quote:
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
That was Paul, not Jesus: So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13)
All analogies break down somewhere but I think this one helps explain fairly well.
One way to look at it (if you are of a musical bent) when you set out to learn a piece of music, you get the score (sheet music) it is all right there in front of you, the whole song... in complete detail...but if you are to really play it you must practice it ever working to be more perfect in you execution.
The main difference is that we have the Holy Spirit working in us, encouraging us and helping us to get it right (pointing out when we get it wrong is part of that) sort of like a music teacher.
Wuest (one of my favorite commentators) puts it this way in his paraphrase:
Wherefore, my beloved ones, as you always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, carry to its ultimate conclusion your own salvation with a wholesome, serious caution and trembling, for God is the One who is constantly putting forth His energy in you, both in the form of your being desirous of and of your doing His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 Wuest)
Hope this helps,
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 9:14:08 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
Anyone care to clarify?
It is a matter of identity not behavior. We who are indwelt by the living God, are Children of God, that is our identity...it is who we are.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Some of us were those people. But now, through our acceptance of Christ Jesus, we have been washed, sanctified and justified, we have a new identity, we are now Children of God.
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become Children of God." John 1:12
And we will never be less than who we now are...
"All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me]." John 6:37 (amp)
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 10:22:42 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved?
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
That does not mean that living the life a Christian is called to live is salvation by works. Salvation is by Grace through faith.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
No arguments anywhere on that, but most folks skip the very next verst
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If one does not walk in the good works then they are not saved, no matter what any "Easy Believerism" person might try to tell you. Sanctification is the "Fruit" by which you will be known. Jesus says this;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If one is working iniquity (walking in sin, working sin, living in sin) then they just or not saved and cannot call Jesus Lord;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
And one of the things Jesus said was "Go and sin no more"
So examine yourself;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
(2Co 13:6) But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Nothing confusing about it, one is either saved or they are not.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/11/2008 11:34:04 AM >
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/11/2008 10:51:27 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Actually that was Paul:
Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
It is not working FOR salvation; rather it is how you are to walk out the salvation you already have.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/13/2008 3:50:01 PM
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Butterflytearz
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quote:
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
I think he is saying not to be arrogant or boast about your salvation as if you earned it, but to walk humbily with the Lord, to do justly and to love mercy.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/13/2008 4:41:09 PM
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terryjohn
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We should all tremble at what God has in mind for us in that He calls us His children and we know we are so unworthy of such a calling.
The righteous shall be saved by faith and faith alone. Now faith is based on grace and grace is only possible were grace is in fact needed. Hence, our unrighteousness does glorify Gods holliness. Added to this is the knowedge that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Think on the necessity of faith and grace, and you will begin to see that God and we could have it no other way. For without our unrighteousness we could never begin to see and desire His righteousness and accept His grace. Think not of God as a judge but as Father and you see it is not about meeting requirements but about being His son by blood relationship. You are then not acceptable by you works but by the blood of Christ that runs in your veins or your birth (born again).
Nevertheless, our salvation is less about trying to be saved but more about being saved out of which our actions are not now seen as efforts in trying to attain to His righteous standards but rather consequences of having being given those standards as part of our transformed minds. You could say I try to be good not because the law tells me to, but rather becasue I find I want to.
Now salvation is not about being or doing good but about being of one mind with Chirst or being in relationship with Christ. So you could say that even good works without faith in Christ is sin. Hence, if we are not saved for our righteousness sake, then it is true also to say that we are not condemned for our unrighteousness sake as well, for without faith it is impossible to please Him. Now in this relationship we say, "There is now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ."
In the end, when we see as we are seen, we shall be like Him, For the time being as we are said only to see ourselves as though in a dim looking glass we are content with what we see and groan with all creation in the expectation that in time God will fully reveal His sons.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/13/2008 8:55:41 PM
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Kath
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moving from General Faith to Salvation Issues
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/14/2008 1:37:02 AM
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GraceBro
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quote:
What about the verse that says that we should be perfect as our God is perfect?
The Sermon on the Mount has been taught as if it is some sort of Christian "Constitution" designed to show us how to live. However, it is exactly the opposite. The entire message Christ delivered was to bury us under the weight of what God expects from us in order to be like Him so that we would come to Christ by faith. The Sermon on the Mount was to prepare us for the cross by revealing the depths of our sinfulness so that we would have no other choice but to turn to Jesus for salvation. The purpose of the law is to show us our sinfulness and how we are totally incapable of living up to God's righteous requirements. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, amplified the law so we would stop thinking we were somehow able to keep it. He was teaching that mankinds real problem isn't our behavior, but the condition of our hearts.
The law says "do not murder," but Jesus said, "anyone who is angry" is guilty of murder (v 21). That should stop all of us in our tracks. Who hasn't been angry? The law says, "Do not commit adultery," but Jesus went even further by saying, "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery (v28)." This, especially, eliminates every man on earth from reaching God's perfection. Next we read that if our right eye causes us to sin we are to "gouge it out and throw it away (v 29)" and if our right hand causes us to sin we are to "cut it off and throw it away (v30)." We'd all be half blind, only have one hand, or have died from trying to execute this judgment on ourselves. I don't see anybody quoting these passages too often as instructions for living. Other impossibilities taught by Jesus are that our righteousness should "exceed" that of the scribes and Pharisees (v 20). Not equal, but exceed, the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisess. Another impossibility. And if that isn't enough to make us throw up our hands in frustration, he caps it off with the verse you ask about; be as perfect as God. Nobody has met, or will meet, this expectation.
Jesus is saying, in no uncertain terms, we must be like God in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We can't be like God. Trying to be like God is exactly what caused the Fall of humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5). Entering the Kingdom of God is only made possible through faith in Jesus Christ. He is the only one who ever lived a sinless life and now, through the Holy Spirit, lives it in us. He doesn't help us obey the law, but to walk in total love through dependency on Him.
This passage is confusing because we often look at it from the perspective that Jesus is trying to encourage us to live under the law. When, He is really using the law for its intended purpose, which is to lead us to Him.
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:24-25
Grace and Peace
< Message edited by GraceBro -- 6/14/2008 1:55:49 AM >
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/15/2008 2:11:21 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is a matter of identity not behavior. We who are indwelt by the living God, are Children of God, that is our identity...it is who we are.
And this is why I do not subscribe to the popular teaching within Evangelicalism of Imputed Righteousness. Because our faith, if it is REAL, GENUINE, and SAVING, is not merely a change of status but a change of status and nature. We cannot hide under a mere cloak of claiming Jesus to be our Savior and Lord without walking the talk.
"Little children, let us not love in word or speech, but in deed and in truth."
"What does it it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." St James 2:14-17
"You believe that God is one; you do well. even the demons believe-and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Issac upon the altar? You see that faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." St. James 2:19-24
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." St. James 2:26
Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." St. John 6:29,30
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father." St. John 14:12-14
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in Heaven." St. Matthew 5:14-16
"Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation." I Peter 2:12
Our behavior is who we are and testifies to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit will bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. That fruit will be evident both to the believer and to those who know the believer. If there is no change of life style, and yet one claims to be a Christian, that person's claim should be questioned.
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing." St. James 1:22-25
Heavendweller
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/15/2008 2:43:46 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
As RC mentioned, the rest of the verse is pertinent to the meaning of the entire verse. "for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
I think we often are inclined to look at certain principles in Holy Scripture with an either/or mentality, rather than a both/and mentality. Are there certain things which are required of us now that we are children of God, or are we allowed to do whatever we nilly willy please. Obviously, it is the former. Can we work out our salvation without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit? God forbid. It is only by the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit that we have any power to live the Christian life, any power to say "no" to sin, any power to be victorious over the flesh.
Let me give you an example. Prior to being a Christian, I was reading "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas a Kempis. As I read about the kind of behavior that was expected of a Christian, the kind of life a believer in Christ was to live, I felt dejected and discouraged. I even attempted by my own will to live as a Christian. But I kept on failing over and over again.
A few months after purchasing this book, I became a believer in Christ. And you know what? The way I knew that Jesus Christ was the Living God, that God actually existed, that the Holy Spirit was dwelling within me, is because I had power over sin for the first time in my life! Immediately after becoming a believer in Christ, the enemy tempted me in so many ways. Whereas I had no power previously to resist temptation, and I always gave in, AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit and being regenerated, I had power to resist sin. Hallelujah! And He has given me power over and over and over again since that time to be victorious in Christ.
quote:
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
I think what is important to understand is that our blessed triune God expects us to live holy lives unto Him. And that if we practice (the key word being practice) the works of the flesh, such as fornication, adultery, hatred of our neighbor, strife, envy, licentiousness, greed, then our faith must indeed be questioned. We should examine ourselves, as Holy Scripture teaches, to make sure we are living as Christians should live, and not as the world lives. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" I Cor.13:5
Many Christians have a wrong idea of works. Look at the scriptures that I have shown in my previous post as regards works. Works that are done so that one may merely boast, or works of the law (the old covenant), or works that one claims are of God, but really the devil (Word/Faith movement), are bad works, which Christ will not recognize.
But there are works that we do in the Spirit, propelled by the Spirit, out of love for God, founded by Christ our Lord, which are righteous before God.
Heavendweller
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/15/2008 3:48:17 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Many Christians have a wrong idea of works. Look at the scriptures that I have shown in my previous post as regards works. Works that are done so that one may merely boast, or works of the law (the old covenant), or works that one claims are of God, but really the devil (Word/Faith movement), are bad works, which Christ will not recognize.
But there are works that we do in the Spirit, propelled by the Spirit, out of love for God, founded by Christ our Lord, which are righteous before God.
Heavendweller
So, in other words you have gone to great lengths to place everyone back under the Law in your previous post, and then tacked onto the end of this post the little disclaimer that, of course, it is all propelled by the Spirit.
Would it not have been simpler to just have stated this at the beginning and be done with it?
The God in whom we have placed our faith, as Christians, does indeed produce good works, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, through us. These are the only works that matter, for God alone is good and only He can produce good works. These are the works that endure eternally, all other works are merely wood, hay and stubble.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/15/2008 5:25:06 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Many Christians have a wrong idea of works. Look at the scriptures that I have shown in my previous post as regards works. Works that are done so that one may merely boast, or works of the law (the old covenant), or works that one claims are of God, but really the devil (Word/Faith movement), are bad works, which Christ will not recognize.
But there are works that we do in the Spirit, propelled by the Spirit, out of love for God, founded by Christ our Lord, which are righteous before God.
quote:
So, in other words you have gone to great lengths to place everyone back under the Law in your previous post, and then tacked onto the end of this post the little disclaimer that, of course, it is all propelled by the Spirit.
UR,
You didn't read my post very well. Read what I said about works under the law (old covenant).
quote:
The God in whom we have placed our faith, as Christians, does indeed produce good works, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, through us. These are the only works that matter, for God alone is good and only He can produce good works. These are the works that endure eternally, all other works are merely wood, hay and stubble.
Again, you didn't read my post very well at all. I did indeed say that it is only by the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can resist sin and temptation and do any good work. Read what I said in my testimony about trying to live by certain Christian principles without the indwelling Holy Spirit.
You either misunderstand me or you are trying to misrepresent what I said. Please read carefully what I said regarding the need for the indwelling Holy Spirit in order to live the Christian life.
Heavendweller
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/16/2008 4:15:47 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is a matter of identity not behavior. We who are indwelt by the living God, are Children of God, that is our identity...it is who we are.
And this is why I do not subscribe to the popular teaching within Evangelicalism of Imputed Righteousness. Heavendweller
Romans 4:23, 24 - "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also,to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."
rileykins
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/18/2008 11:41:44 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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Heavendweller, i like what you have posted, true faith in Christ produces Works of Christ.
To all I believe one is saved by grace of god and by god alone, upon ones belief in him
When one puts their faith in God through Christ his only perfect Son, then one is being saved and not of ones; self either.
Tell me here anyone of you that believe, to this day that does not sin. Does anyone here walk by faith in Christ continuously?
for as I see here we all have points to make in our walks to each other that might help our understanding or might not help.
The purpose I see is to help each other, edify not condem.
This way works for me and that way works for you, and on and on. Thus w/o condemnation we grow in grace
FOR FROM WHAT i READ HERE WE ALL BELIEVE IN HIM THE ONE AND ONLY JESUS CHRIST
We all have differant ways of expressing the love he has shown us.
I see clearly faith is dead w/o works, yet works does not produce faith, it is faith in christ that produces works
Just like the death of Christ does not give life it is the life of Christ that gives life.
ineffable love
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/25/2008 2:27:21 AM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So, in other words you have gone to great lengths to place everyone back under the Law in your previous post, and then tacked onto the end of this post the little disclaimer that, of course, it is all propelled by the Spirit.
Would it not have been simpler to just have stated this at the beginning and be done with it?
The God in whom we have placed our faith, as Christians, does indeed produce good works, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, through us. These are the only works that matter, for God alone is good and only He can produce good works. These are the works that endure eternally, all other works are merely wood, hay and stubble.
Heavendweller has done no such thing as "place everyone back under the Law", if by "Law", you mean the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law. Of course, such ordinances were a shadow that was fulfilled in substance by Jesus Christ.
However, we are duty bound to obey the moral precepts of the Law (i.e. the 10 Commandments); which are summarized in two maxims:
"You shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength"
and
"You shalt love your neighbor as yourself"
And, of course, the Lord assured us that all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
But let me quote from a Protestant who summarized what obligations we have to the law:
quote:
"Concerning the Moral Law, of which I am now to treat more especially, that is partly abrogated and partly not: abrogated, as to some of its circumstances; but not as to any thing of its substance, authority and obligation.
(1) To believers The Moral Law is abrogated as to it condemning power. Though it sentences every sinner to death, and curses everyone who continues not in all things written therein to do them; yet, through the intervention of Christ's satisfaction and obedience, the sins of a believer are graciously pardoned, and the curse abolished, it being discharged wholly upon Christ, and received all into his body on the cross, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13); so that we may therefore triumphantly exult with the apostle, "There is now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1)
(2) But, as it has a power of obliging the conscience as a standing rule for our obedience, it remains still in its full vigor and authority.
It still directs us what we ought to do; binds the conscience to the performance of it; brings guilt upon the soul, if we transgress it; and reduces us to the necessity either of bitter repentance, or of eternal condemnation. For, in this sense, heaven and earth shall sooner pass away than one jot or tittle shall pass from the law.
Therefore, Antinomianism is to be abominated, which derogates from the value and validity of the law, and contends that it is to all purposes extinct to believers, even as to its preceptive and regulating power; and that no other obligation to duty lies upon them who are in Christ Jesus, but only from the law of gratitude: that God requires not obedience from them upon so low and sordid an account as the fear of his wrath and dread severity; but all is to flow only from the principle of love and the sweet temper of a grateful and ingenuous spirit.
This is a most pestilent doctrine, which plucks down the fence of the law, and opens a gap for all manner of licentiousness and libertinism to rush in upon the Christian world; for, seeing that the Moral Law is not other than the Law of Nature written upon man's heart at the first, some positives only being superadded; upon the same account as we are men, upon the same we owe obedience to the dictates of it.
And, indeed, we may find every part of this law enforced in the gospel; charged upon us with the same threatenings, and recommended to us by the same promises; and all interpreted to us by our Savior Himself, to the greatest advantage of strictness and severity. We find the same rules for our actions, the same duties required, the same sins forbidden in the gospel as in the law.
Yet, withal, a higher degree of obedience is now required from us under the dispensation of the gospel than was expected under the more obscure and shadowy exhibitions of the gospel-grace by legal types and figures. We confess that the Israelites, before the coming of Christ, were no more under a Covenant of Works than we are now; but yet the Covenant of Grace was more darkly administered to them: and therefore, we having now received both a clearer light to discover what is our duty, and a more plentiful effusion of the Holy Ghost to enable us to perform it, and better promises, more express and significant testimonies of God's acceptance, and more full assurance of our own reward, it lies upon us, and we are under obligation, having all these helps and advantages above them, to endeavor that our holiness and obedience should much superior to theirs; and that we should serve God with more readiness and alacrity, since now by Jesus Christ our yoke is made easy and our burden light.
So that you see we are far from being released from our obligation to obedience; but rather, that obligation is made the stricter by Christ's coming into the world: and every transgression against the Moral Law is enhanced to an excess of sin and guilt, not only by the authority of God's injunction, which still continues inviolable; but likewise from the sanction of our Mediator and Redeemer who hat invigorated the precepts of the law by his express command, and promised us assistance of his Spirit to observe and perform it.
"Understanding the Ten Commandments" by Ezekial Hopkins in Essays in Old Testament Interpretation, ed. Walter Kaiser
But let me add C.S. Lewis' insights about this:
quote:
I find a good many people have been bothered by what I said in the previous chapter about Our Lord's words, 'Be ye perfect'. Some people seem to think this means 'Unless you are perfect, I will not help you'; and as we cannot be perfect, then, if He meant that, our position is hopeless. But I do not think He did mean that. I think He meant 'The only help I will give is help to become perfect. You may want something less: but I will give you nothing less.
Taken from "Counting the Cost" in Mere Christianity.
But I like what St. Gregory of Nyssa had to say:
quote:
Now in all things which can be measured in the order of sensual things, perfection is always bounded by certain definite limits, as, for example, in the case of extension, whether it be continuous or discrete. Every quantitative measurement presupposes its own proper limits. Anyone who considers, for example, the cubit, or the number ten, will see that their perfection consists in having a beginning and an end. But with regard to virtue we know from the Apostle that the one determination of perfection is it not having any limit. For the divine Apostle, a man who was vast and profound in spirit, in his course on the path of virtue constantly stretched forward to the things that lay ahead (Phil. 3:13). To stop in his course, he felt, was unsafe. Why? Because every good is by its nature unlimited, and is bounded only by the presence of its contrary--as life is bounded by death, and light by darkness. Thus everything that is wholly good ceases only at the point where its opposite begins. Thus, just as the end of life is the beginning of death, so too, to stop on the path of virtue is to begin on the path of evil. Hence by statement was not incorrect when I said that it was impossible to define perfection. For we have shown that what can be contained within limits is not virtue.
Now my saying that it is impossible for those who pursue a life of virtue ever to attain perfection I shall also explain in the following way. The sovereign and highest Good, whose nature is goodness, this is divine nature itself; and whatever perfection can be conceived in such a nature, this He is called and is. Now since we have shown that the only limitation of virtue is vice, and since the divine nature excludes anything that is contrary to it, then it follows that the divine nature is conceived without bound or limit. But the soul that pursues true virtue actually participates in God Himself, because He is infinite virtue. Now since those who have come to know the highest good, desire completely to share in it, and since this good is limitless, it follows that their desire must necessarily be coextensive with the limitless, and therefore have no limit. Thus it is absolutely impossible to attain perfection; for, as I have said, it cannot be confined within limits, and the only determination of virtue is that it is boundless. How then can a man reach the boundary he is looking for it it does not exist?
But though my argument has shown that we cannot attain our goal, we must not, for all that, neglect the divine command, 'Be you perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect' (Matt. 5:48). For though it may not be possible completely to attain the ultimate and sovereign good, it is most desirable for those who are wise to have at least a share in it. We would then make every effort not to fall short utterly of the perfection that is possible for us, and to try to come as close to it and possess as much of it as possible. For it may be that human perfection consists precisely in this constant growth in the good.
Taken from "The Life of Moses"
and
And so my discourse has shown that what appears so terrifying (I mean the mutability of our nature) can really be as a pinion in our flight towards higher things, and indeed it would be hardship if we were not susceptible of the sort of change which is towards the better. One ought not then to be distressed when one considers this tendency in our nature; rather let us change in such a way that we may constantly evolve towards what is better, being "transformed from glory to glory" (2 Cor. 3:18), and thus always improving and ever becoming more perfect by daily growth, and never arriving at any limit of perfection. For that perfection consists in our never stopping in our growth in good, never circumscribing our perfection by any limitation.
Taken from "On Perfection"
Cited from From Glory to Glory: Text From Gregory of Nyssa's Mystical Writings, Jean Danielou, S.J. and Herbert Mursillo, S.J.
< Message edited by cognitivemagic -- 6/25/2008 3:13:08 AM >
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