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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/5/2008 9:44:17 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
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Mr. Fribbles,
Regarding this quote:
quote:
As for "picking and choosing", for the truly saved, it's usually quite obvious. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If we don't harden our hearts to Him, He makes things quite clear.
This was Ben's question:
quote:
How do we pick and choose what is "of the world" and what isn't?
I don't see that question as one pertaining specifically to "tattoos".
And about Martin Luther...did he have scripture to back up his "arguments"? I think so.
Again, Jesus kept redirecting the Pharisees (same kind of folks Luther was dealing with) back to scripture.
Romans 14? Deals with not being a stumbling block to less mature believers. It also has to do with a particular situation the church in Rome was experiencing...new believers that were not accepting the apostle's teachings that all foods were clean if received with thanksgiving. The author was exhorting more mature believers to be gentle with the newest converts. When it comes to scripture, be careful about lumping other things in where they don't belong.
Tattoos are not good or evil, in and of themselves. The motivation is the issue. And you're correct...
quote:
But what is ones reason for getting a expensive new outfit? If we are supposed to strive to glorify God in all we do, how does getting a expensive new outfit do that? Do some get expensive new suits to glorify self? Do some do it to fit into a certain mold they're set their sights on?
In my mind, this argument against tattoos can just as easily be made about any outer adornment we put on ourselves - be it clothes, jewelry, body paint, make-up, what have you.
My teenage girls are used to shopping at Goodwill and Wal-Mart. Only occasionally do we even shop at Kohl's or JC Penney and usually only if we can't find what we need at one of the aforementioned stores. We've worked to train our kids to understand 1 Timothy 2:9. Yes, it's important to be nicely and neatly dressed and clean...a lot can be said about what's inside by what's outside. But what does a Christian want the world to see when they are observed? Expensive trappings? Tattoos? Multiple piercings? A lot of "stuff" that says "look at me, me, me?" Or a light that shines from the inside that can only be explained by knowing Christ?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/5/2008 10:00:32 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
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quote:
But what does a Christian want the world to see when they are observed? Expensive trappings? Tattoos? Multiple piercings? A lot of "stuff" that says "look at me, me, me?" Or a light that shines from the inside that can only be explained by knowing Christ?
Now, see, the problem is, you seem to be suggesting that a tattoo cannot possibly be from a light that shines on the inside, while I believe it can be. A friend of mine has "It was for freedom that Christ set us free," tattooed on his wrists, in Greek. How many people will come up to him and ask, "What's that you have tattooed there?" And how many people, from his tattoo, will he be able to share the gospel with more effectively? If that didn't stem from God's light, I don't know what does.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/5/2008 10:42:19 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
But what does a Christian want the world to see when they are observed? Expensive trappings? Tattoos? Multiple piercings? A lot of "stuff" that says "look at me, me, me?" Or a light that shines from the inside that can only be explained by knowing Christ?
Now, see, the problem is, you seem to be suggesting that a tattoo cannot possibly be from a light that shines on the inside, while I believe it can be. A friend of mine has "It was for freedom that Christ set us free," tattooed on his wrists, in Greek. How many people will come up to him and ask, "What's that you have tattooed there?" And how many people, from his tattoo, will he be able to share the gospel with more effectively? If that didn't stem from God's light, I don't know what does.
I do believe some genuine believing Christians have gotten tattoos...that's a given. I do not believe getting or having a tattoo makes one whit's difference as to ones eternal destiny.
Okay? With that said, let me be blunt...I will say what others won't...
I have seen, known too many people that use tattoos as a way to be identified with exceedingly ungodly groups. Not always, but often, tattoos go with a certain lifestyle. Biased and stereotypical, yes, but still there. The tattoo parlors (probably an outdated term) I've seen, without exception, are in places I would not want to venture. Again, that lifestyle thing. I'm sure there are some very nice, clean, upscale tattoo parlors somewhere...I just haven't seen them.
Here's another concern I personally have with tattoos...many women have tattoos in places that should not be visible to anyone but their husbands. No big deal right? I mean, if I was going to get one, that's what I'd do. But...who did they have to undress for to get that tattoo??? By undressing for a stranger (even the most professional one) or even a friend, to what kind of danger did they expose themselves? If the tattoo artist was a man, what kind of thoughts did he entertain while observing the private areas of someone other than his wife?
I know, I know...they're "artists"..."professionals". Would you want your wife baring all for an ink stain? How about your daughter?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/5/2008 11:08:34 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I know, I know...they're "artists"..."professionals". Would you want your wife baring all for an ink stain? How about your daughter?
If they felt comfortable with it, sure. I'm sure that, much like doctors, tattoo artists learn to look at the human body in "medical" terms. Not to say there aren't those out there who take ungodly pleasure in observing some of their clients, but I'm sure the majority of them don't treat their job as a peep show. Just like some lifeguards are on the job for the wrong reason (looking at swim-suit wearing people all day), there are many more who are there for the right ones (saving lives).
quote:
The tattoo parlors (probably an outdated term) I've seen, without exception, are in places I would not want to venture.
If I were a betting man, I'd guess that is exactly where Jesus would have been hanging out, had He come today. Maybe not literally tattoo parlors, but certainly that kind of place. And He would be interested in reaching out to those people. He spoke to them on their terms, not in hyper-religious language. He was interested in reaching them where they were. He was reaching out into the dark places of the world.
If we look down on Christians who want to have greater access to these dark places, what does that say about our willingness to take the Gospel to all peoples?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 12:47:42 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 609
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
How do we pick and choose what is "of the world" and what isn't?
We do that all the time. Take porn for example, a no brainer, thats world. Having said that, i dont think having a tat hinders the spirit at all, i just think its ugly, and not something a christian should do. As far as getting a christian symbol tattooed on you so you wont be able to deny Christ, as was brought up, if the spirit cant help you in those situations, that tat aint gonna help.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 12:56:43 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2402
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
The tattoo parlors (probably an outdated term) I've seen, without exception, are in places I would not want to venture.
I've met some awesome people in these "shady" places.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 1:00:45 AM
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Solus
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Can someone who has one answer onequestion for me? What do they feel like? I plan on getting one sometime and I've heard very different things from "worse than child birth" (I'm a guy so I can only imagine) to "it just tickles". So, what is it like?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 7:07:38 AM
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Doc65
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Solus,
With regard to how much it hurts/how it feels, it depends upon where you get the tattoo. Mine is on my left calf and like I noted in an earlier post, it felt a lot less painful than road rash - the outline, which is a single needle, probably hurt most of all; the "fill", which is a multi-needle setup, kind of felt like someone was rubbing my leg with a brillo pad - not painful, just a hard "scrubbing" sensation. There is an excellent artist in town who is a lifelong Christian and he refuses to do "satanic" art or anything that could be a stumbling block to folks. A good artist, like him, should be able to tell you where the most painful spots are for a tat (such as the ankle, back of the hand, etc), how long the healing process is, possible complications, etc. Shop around, ask others who have been inked and go from there is my best advice.
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 7:59:42 AM
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DarleneSchreiber
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
If I were a betting man, I'd guess that is exactly where Jesus would have been hanging out, had He come today. Maybe not literally tattoo parlors, but certainly that kind of place. And He would be interested in reaching out to those people. He spoke to them on their terms, not in hyper-religious language. He was interested in reaching them where they were. He was reaching out into the dark places of the world.
If we look down on Christians who want to have greater access to these dark places, what does that say about our willingness to take the Gospel to all peoples?
This is the type of thing I woke up thinking about this morning! People like to think Jesus "hung out" in the biblical equivilent of bars, porn shops, etc. But he didn't! And Jesus didn't "hang out" with the type of people that would frequent those places (near as I can figure). Some of His nearest and dearest were saved out of siutations like that, however. He "hung out" at the the temple and with his disciples.
He did preach the gospel to all who would hear. But He choose His "inner circle" carefully. And he was "interested in reaching out to those people"...but they came to Him. As is the case today, He did the calling but they did the coming.
It's a trick of the enemy...we bring Jesus down to our level rather than aspire to rise to His. We humanize him and deny his diety and holiness. We justify our own sinful desires by pointing to Jesus and saying, "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."
Let me ask this question...how many of us can say we have the power over temptation that Jesus had? How many of us can go face to face with the enemy and win?
I want to say this then I'm done (I hope). Tattoos do not send people to hell. The absence of tattoos does not send people to heaven. I will not be wishy-washy and sit on the fence and say it's a "personal choice". I really don't think it is for a believer. Because if in doubt and/or if it will possibly cause a younger brother to stumble, it's not worth it and we could be judged severely. But it's a secondary issue, at best, and not something worth arguing over.
< Message edited by DarleneSchreiber -- 6/6/2008 8:05:44 AM >
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 9:31:56 AM
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lexie
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From: Toronto
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quote:
I certainly hope, Lexie, that you don't infer that from my post (above yours).
Nope! I should have been more clear that my "you" was a general "you."
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 10:01:35 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 609
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
If I were a betting man, I'd guess that is exactly where Jesus would have been hanging out, had He come today. Maybe not literally tattoo parlors, but certainly that kind of place. And He would be interested in reaching out to those people. He spoke to them on their terms, not in hyper-religious language. He was interested in reaching them where they were. He was reaching out into the dark places of the world.
If we look down on Christians who want to have greater access to these dark places, what does that say about our willingness to take the Gospel to all peoples?
This is the type of thing I woke up thinking about this morning! People like to think Jesus "hung out" in the biblical equivilent of bars, porn shops, etc. But he didn't! And Jesus didn't "hang out" with the type of people that would frequent those places (near as I can figure). Some of His nearest and dearest were saved out of siutations like that, however. He "hung out" at the the temple and with his disciples.
He did preach the gospel to all who would hear. But He choose His "inner circle" carefully. And he was "interested in reaching out to those people"...but they came to Him. As is the case today, He did the calling but they did the coming.
It's a trick of the enemy...we bring Jesus down to our level rather than aspire to rise to His. We humanize him and deny his diety and holiness. We justify our own sinful desires by pointing to Jesus and saying, "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."
Let me ask this question...how many of us can say we have the power over temptation that Jesus had? How many of us can go face to face with the enemy and win?
I want to say this then I'm done (I hope). Tattoos do not send people to hell. The absence of tattoos does not send people to heaven. I will not be wishy-washy and sit on the fence and say it's a "personal choice". I really don't think it is for a believer. Because if in doubt and/or if it will possibly cause a younger brother to stumble, it's not worth it and we could be judged severely. But it's a secondary issue, at best, and not something worth arguing over.
well said.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/6/2008 2:04:32 PM
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reillan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
I want to say this then I'm done (I hope). Tattoos do not send people to hell. The absence of tattoos does not send people to heaven. I will not be wishy-washy and sit on the fence and say it's a "personal choice". I really don't think it is for a believer. Because if in doubt and/or if it will possibly cause a younger brother to stumble, it's not worth it and we could be judged severely. But it's a secondary issue, at best, and not something worth arguing over.
That's exactly what I would say about it. If someone is not in doubt and can avoid causing another to stumble because of it - I have no problem with them doing it. I just could not do it personally, and wouldn't advocate it to another believer.
(not exactly sure when a tattoo might cause someone to stumble, though)
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/8/2008 2:18:43 PM
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edgibson
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quote:
your body is a temple to the Holy Spirit and such things could be seen as abuse of the temple.
Abuse..... like pierced ears? Or a suntan? (it is actually damage to the skin)
quote:
We're also to abstain from even the appearance of evil, which tells me, if in doubt, leave it out.
So I expect that, by that standard, no christian shall ever exceed the speed limit. And if they do, they turn themselves in for breaking the law.
quote:
Ahhhh...it's all clear now! We need to rip the whole book of Leviticus out of our Bibles! It's clearly outdated and not very hip!
Obviously not. But, what parts are ok to ignore and which parts are not? The concensus seems to be that Lev 19:28 is a, set in stone, absolutely, you betcha, gotta do.
What about Lev 20:10? Are we going to start executing adulterers? Oh, we need to shoot Ms Chloe, too. Lev 20:27.
If Leviticus is only right in spots, who is right to spot the spots?
quote:
I think a good indicator is this...if we have to argue and try to prove our point, it's probably not a good idea. That's the example Jesus set forth...He didn't argue a point...He just redirected people to the scriptures.
Good point. Guys, no more trimming of the hair of your temples. No trimming of the edges of your beards. Lev 19:27. All must stand in the presence of the elderly, Lev 19:32.
I'm not even going to mention Lev 15 except to say that we need to stock up on pigeons and turtledove.
Hey, just directing to scripture.
quote:
Multiple piercings? A lot of "stuff" that says "look at me, me, me?"
How many is multiple? One in each ear could be considered multiple. And as for stuff that says "look at me"... I would count most makeup, and most clothing sold to women today in that category (including in Walmart).
quote:
The tattoo parlors (probably an outdated term) I've seen, without exception, are in places I would not want to venture.
The last one I was in was in strip-mall next to a super Kmart. (((shudder))))
quote:
Because if in doubt and/or if it will possibly cause a younger brother to stumble, it's not worth it and we could be judged severely.
Hmmmm, interesting standard to set. Do you know any vegetarians. Many of them cannot abide eating meat, and cannot understand why a christian would do so.
Be careful. What that says is even if something is specifically pointed out in the Bible as being OK, if it might make someone stumble. Don't do it. So, ignore my previous paragraph. It doesn't matter if you know a vegetarian or not. You might.... so no meat.
_____________________________
Where are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 5:42:09 AM
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everythingat
Posts: 250
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It surprises me in some ways that this topic would even still be debated in 2008. Then again, it doesn't. It's personal conviction. That's all it boils down to. There is no scripture to firmly back the view that tattoos are wrong. In my opinion, it's a bit of a stretch to say that there is. I had a lip piercing when I was younger. I took it out, then a year or so later became a Christian. I almost got it pierced again shortly after becoming a Christian, but it didn't feel right to me...after prayer, I knew it wasn't right for me. Then two years ago, I thought about it again. After prayer, I felt that it was alright. So, I still have a lip piercing. It's never been a "stumbling block" to anyone that I've encountered. The only time I've heard anything about piercings or tattoos being a stumbling block is on the internet. At the end of the day...it's just ink on your skin and a hole in your body. There are numerous more times in scripture that God has mentioned He looks at the inside, not the outside...and the only real time that it could be wrong is if it is a trigger to lead you personally back into sin. I can't imagine a piercing or tattoo turning anyone away from Jesus...I'm more worried about how I carry myself around unbelievers, and not how my piercing carries me.
EDIT- I don't have a piercing to say "look at me!" I have one for a simple reason...I like it. Just like how I enjoy wearing black-rimmed glasses. Or Converse shoes. I'm generally a quiet person who doesn't seek attention, but looks to give attention to others when they need it. Having a piercing in no way affects my judgment to see the hurt in people's hearts around me.
< Message edited by everythingat -- 6/9/2008 5:54:43 AM >
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:06:47 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
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Here's an question for anyone around here: Are you influencing the culture or are you being influenced by the culture?
Oh, dang...forget it! That's too Levitical! Never mind!
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:26:47 PM
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NealIRC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
We are not under the Law anymore, so quoting a verse from Leviticus is not a good argument against tattoos.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
Ahhhh...it's all clear now! We need to rip the whole book of Leviticus out of our Bibles! It's clearly outdated and not very hip!
Uhh, pardon my ignorance, but.
But Jesus clearly said, that.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law."
So when Leviticus said no tattoos, it simply meant, no tattoos.
The argument or controversy now is if it's okay to have tattoos in regards to Christianity. Hmm. Like a cross or something. Leviticus didn't go that specific.
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:29:56 PM
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NealIRC
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(And to get back on topic.)
My current stance on tattoos, I am against.
I never have, don't have, or never want to have, any tattoos or piercings whatsoever.
Yes, I'm single, so would I reject a girl that has a tattoo? Not for that specific reason, but possibly.
I'd also like to distinguish between temporary tattoos and permanent tattoos. The states in the U.S. that I know of, make tattooing a minor (someone under 18.0) a misdemeanor. I'm assuming it meant permanent tattoos of course.
Clearly the law finds it a sense of immoral as well.
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:30:44 PM
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edgibson
Posts: 145
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From: Then: upper NY, Now: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
Here's an question for anyone around here: Are you influencing the culture or are you being influenced by the culture?
Oh, dang...forget it! That's too Levitical! Never mind!
Are you influencing the culture? And if so, for better of worse?
I really would like to know which parts of Leviticus we are supposed to be following. The tattoo one, obviously, but what of the rest?
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And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:36:37 PM
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edgibson
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From: Then: upper NY, Now: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NealIRC
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
We are not under the Law anymore, so quoting a verse from Leviticus is not a good argument against tattoos.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
Ahhhh...it's all clear now! We need to rip the whole book of Leviticus out of our Bibles! It's clearly outdated and not very hip!
Uhh, pardon my ignorance, but.
But Jesus clearly said, that.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law."
So when Leviticus said no tattoos, it simply meant, no tattoos.
The argument or controversy now is if it's okay to have tattoos in regards to Christianity. Hmm. Like a cross or something. Leviticus didn't go that specific.
Yes it does. It is a little clearer in a literal translation (YLT). The tattoos (prints) that it refers to are markings of/to pagan gods done at a person's death. Just like the cuts. They were cutting themselves, marking symbols of/to their pagan gods and idols.
Also, the Law he was refering to was the 10 commandments, I believe. I could be wrong.
_____________________________
Where are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:39:42 PM
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NealIRC
Posts: 68
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quote:
ORIGINAL: edgibson
Yes it does. It is a little clearer in a literal translation (YLT). The tattoos (prints) that it refers to are markings of/to pagan gods done at a person's death. Just like the cuts. They were cutting themselves, marking symbols of/to their pagan gods and idols.
I meant if it made an exception to tattoos that resemble Christianity.
So it says all tattoos are not allowed. You say it does make an exception, but I don't see it.
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 3:57:06 PM
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stellaluna
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And now we are curious as to whether you, personally, follow the remainder of the Levitical law and if not, why not?
quote:
Clearly the law finds it a sense of immoral as well.
It's a health issue, not a moral one.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Tattoos Anyone? - 6/9/2008 4:01:37 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: edgibson
quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
Here's an question for anyone around here: Are you influencing the culture or are you being influenced by the culture?
Oh, dang...forget it! That's too Levitical! Never mind!
Are you influencing the culture? And if so, for better of worse?
Yep...that was the question I asked.
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