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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:40:08 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
And is what I agree with as well, but the only qualifier is that we do His will. We can miss God's best by sinning instead.
So, just to clarify, Mike, you're saying that
1) God has a best plan. Call it Plan A.
2) I have my plan, which doesn't always match up to His Plan A.
3) I execute my plan (sin).
4) God says to Himself "oops!" and has to make a Plan B.
Making me ultimately more powerful than God, because I can cause Him to have to change His plan.
Is that the scenario you are proposing?
shallbe
God doesn't change his plan. He has already accounted for my choices in His best plan for me. Whether I choose to accept his best for me or not he already knows that. He wants to give me everything, but will not force it on me.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:46:49 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
But no matter what, we cannot derail God's sovereign plan in the slightest with any of our choices. His purpose for our lives, for the world, for all of creation, will be accomplished.
And here is where I must disagree. If what you say is true, then some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire through no fault of their own. They are "doomed" to follow God's plan to use them as fuel in the fire. This contradicts the picture that scripture paints of God as Love.
Some people do get cast into the fire, but it's because they choose to be. They are given the chance to recieve Christ and they refuse.
(from your post 420)
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Right. It may be we might not be able to fully grasp how predestination and free will work together this side of the veil. I think the practical outworking has to be we take God at His Word and (1) trust that He is fully in control, and (2) we do make choices and we are responsible for them.
But if God has everything planned out that we are forced to make the wrong choices then how can we be held responsible for them? See the problem here? Either we are free to chose to do evil, or we are inncoent of it as a puppet is innocent of anything it does.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:52:15 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
What if, instead, God's plan for you started before the beginning of the world (can be scripturally proven) and you have been functioning in it from the moment you were conceived? Every breath, your first grade teacher, the 25th hair in your beard...all planned before the beginning of the world. Your first lie. All part of Plan A.
Why would God force us to sin? He may know that we are going to (as he sees all of time at once) but I cannot be convinced that he will force us to do something that brings him no pleasure.
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Which presupposes GOD'S choice in choosing/electing each Christian. Predestination at it's finest. Christians don't have the knowledge of who will and who will not be elected, so we still have motivation to spread the gospel (as if God's command to do so wasn't enough),
If predestination is true as defined by most Calvinists than it is wasted effort to spread the gospel. We cannot affect anything. If no one ever preaches teh gospel to someone who is supposed to be save dthey will be saved anyway. They don't need to worry about making any choices because no choice matters. They are either doomed to heaven or doomed to hell and nothing they do has any effect on that.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:54:16 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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I think of the whole David and Besheeba thing. It was obvious that wasn't God's will for him to do, and yet at the end of David's life, God said that he served the purposes for his generation. Then there was Peter's denial of Jesus too, and yet God had already factored that into the plan also. So maybe it is harder to derail God's plan than I think.
I will say this though, I have made many mistakes since becoming born again, and I cannot see how it is even possible that I am gonna get God's best at this point.
THAT is one of the things that makes God GREAT, Mike...cause it's not about us and how good we are.
It's all about His mercy, love, and grace and how good HE is. God does not change His plan because of the things you've done. Instead, He gets glory to Himself through them, too--turns them to good. And He reveals more and more of Himself to you so that you grow more and more like Him...even though you have sinned.
It's all Plan A. It's all His best for you. You can't miss it.
Now this I will agree with. Not because we are robots, but because God knows what our free choices will be and accounts for them in His plan.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:55:08 PM
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humbleinspirit
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But everything works out to God's plan though, so I do believe in the Augustinian view.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:57:53 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
But everything works out to God's plan though, so I do believe in the Augustinian view.
Because God accounted for our free choices in the plan.
(Getting back to the topic of sovereignity) It's not becuase God forces us into predefined choices and fates, but that His plan knows what all our free choices will be and he plans for them. Knowing what we will do is not forcing us to do that.
For some reason these discussions always take a lot of work 
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/8/2008 12:22:14 AM
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LabGuy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
The question arises with the statement "a creation designed to glorify him". Obviously all creation does not glorify him, some people don't even belive He exists. Some people curse him. So why does He allow this? HE is wonderful and does deserve the glory, but he forgoes it from part of his creation. Why? I see it as true that He is seeking to be glorified (praised, worshiped, loved) and that in truth (Spirit and in truth to be exact) and in order to receive that we need to be free to give it. (forced praise is not praise)
I agree that as things stand now, parts of creation are not very glorifying. I was arguing that creation taken as a whole, including all time and the ultimate disposition of everything, is what will maximally glorify God.
Also, one aspect of creation glorifying Him I believe is the opportunity it affords God to express his love. Since God is love, we come back to creation being a matter of God being true to Himself.
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So while he does have his plan worked out he also knows exaclty what our choices will be and how we will choose at each choice (because he's already seen us choose it). However that does not mean that our choice is not free. Knowing does not equal causing.
That's like my puzzle illustration.
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ORIGINAL: John_O
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ORIGINAL: LabGuy
But no matter what, we cannot derail God's sovereign plan in the slightest with any of our choices. His purpose for our lives, for the world, for all of creation, will be accomplished.
And here is where I must disagree. If what you say is true, then some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire through no fault of their own. They are "doomed" to follow God's plan to use them as fuel in the fire. This contradicts the picture that scripture paints of God as Love.
Some people do get cast into the fire, but it's because they choose to be. They are given the chance to recieve Christ and they refuse.
I agree it's their choice. The Bible is, I think, clear on that. However, the Bible does also very clearly speak of those predestinated to be saved (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 for example). That was my main point earlier - both viewpoints are taught in the Bible. And though that seems impossible to our minds, both must be true since it's there. I believe it may be one of those spiritual mysteries we may not be able understand short of Heaven.
However, consider that in addition to our bodies, God creates our souls/spirits. So He creates some knowing they will reject Him, and thus suffer eternal punishment. How do we reconcile that? Is it that creating them and giving them life, and dying for them on the cross even knowing they will reject the sacrifice, is a greater act of love than not creating them?
(You just made me contemplate that for the first time ever. Thanks!!!)
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/8/2008 12:43:36 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
The question arises with the statement "a creation designed to glorify him". Obviously all creation does not glorify him, some people don't even belive He exists. Some people curse him. So why does He allow this? HE is wonderful and does deserve the glory, but he forgoes it from part of his creation. Why? I see it as true that He is seeking to be glorified (praised, worshiped, loved) and that in truth (Spirit and in truth to be exact) and in order to receive that we need to be free to give it. (forced praise is not praise)
I agree that as things stand now, parts of creation are not very glorifying. I was arguing that creation taken as a whole, including all time and the ultimate disposition of everything, is what will maximally glorify God.
Again this brings us back to the love question. If God was looking for the maximum glory he could create infinite numbers that would praise him endlessly right in heaven. Why would Earth be needed at all?
quote:
Also, one aspect of creation glorifying Him I believe is the opportunity it affords God to express his love. Since God is love, we come back to creation being a matter of God being true to Himself.
Now this is true. Love explains a lot of what is done, even those who end up in hell.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
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ORIGINAL: LabGuy
But no matter what, we cannot derail God's sovereign plan in the slightest with any of our choices. His purpose for our lives, for the world, for all of creation, will be accomplished.
And here is where I must disagree. If what you say is true, then some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire through no fault of their own. They are "doomed" to follow God's plan to use them as fuel in the fire. This contradicts the picture that scripture paints of God as Love.
Some people do get cast into the fire, but it's because they choose to be. They are given the chance to recieve Christ and they refuse.
I agree it's their choice. The Bible is, I think, clear on that. However, the Bible does also very clearly speak of those predestinated to be saved (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 for example). That was my main point earlier - both viewpoints are taught in the Bible. And though that seems impossible to our minds, both must be true since it's there. I believe it may be one of those spiritual mysteries we may not be able understand short of Heaven.
I agree. We won't fully understand it until we get there. But we must accept that both are true. God does elect some for heaven and some for hell, how he chooses who's who is the issue.
quote:
However, consider that in addition to our bodies, God creates our souls/spirits. So He creates some knowing they will reject Him, and thus suffer eternal punishment. How do we reconcile that?
Excellent question. I guess if He created only people that would choose Him it would be the same as giving us no choice at all, and He could do that with us all in heaven right from the start. So I see it as in order to get real love from us He has to let us each make our decision, even though He knows who will choose poorly (and it grieves Him).
quote:
Is it that creating them and giving them life, and dying for them on the cross even knowing they will reject the sacrifice, is a greater act of love than not creating them?
(You just made me contemplate that for the first time ever. Thanks!!!)
Interesting concept. I think that He loves us enough to let us choose, even if that choice is wrong.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/8/2008 2:15:37 PM
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joy2give2u
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quote:
However, the Bible does also very clearly speak of those predestined to be saved (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 for example). Hey Labguy I am curious does the bible clearly speak of predestination as it is interpreted by us? Would the people, to whom Paul was speaking, have understood it the same way it is proposed by some? Do you think the believers in Rome and Ephesus pondered the issue and then came to the conclusion the letters they were receiving/reading, along with the word of mouth testimonies, where Jesus's sacrifice, his gift to us, was declared seemed to be saying two different things and just chalked it up to one of the mysteries of God? Do you think they just decided it was one of those things which is impossible for our minds to grasp?
Or is it possible they had a better understanding of what Paul was saying then we do? Is it possible because of the circumstance and environment in which they lived what Paul spoke to them was very easy to understand........maybe even a situation they could relate to in their own experiences? Is it possible if we were to look at the verses and consider the particular circumstances and to whom Paul was speaking we too might begin to see that the two do not seem impossible to understand.
I find it interesting Jesus never mentioned predestination and actually spoke of dying for all who believe in Him. I also find it interesting Jesus, knowing if there were elect who they would be, still preached to all that he had come to save them.
I also find it interesting the the person who speaks the most of the "elect" is Paul who I might add was one of the elect. Not the elect of God, though he was chosen to be a son of the Lord, no he was one of the elect because though Jewish he was born a Roman citizen.
Now you may ask why Paul being born a roman citizen matters to this discussion or what it would have said to the people to whom Paul was actually speaking in Ephesus and Rome.
We have no clue, especially living in this country, what it was like to be a non roman citizen during the time Jesus walked on earth and the many years which followed. We did not face murder if we refused to declare CA the son of god. We are not refused our goods for sell because we refuse to get stamped with the mark of ruler, also known as the mark of the beast due to the cruelty of the ruler, before being allowed to sell anything in the city market.
We have never experienced what it is like to be a second class citizen, treated no better then dogs, and often even worse........We have no idea what it means to be on of the non elect...........but the people of Rome, who had chosen to declare allegiance to Our God, to become followers of The WAY......they knew what it felt like to be one of the non elect.
Paul was born one of the elect.......He was born a roman citizen yet when he speaks in Rome and Ephesus he makes sure to point out that he is also Jewish and only addresses his roman citizenship after he has made it clear that he was chosen by the Lord, that Christ died for him as he did for us all, not because he is roman nor because he is Jewish but because he chose to follow him.
Put yourself in the place of a gentile christian.........turning your back on the "son of god" as Augusta proclaim he was and choosing to follow a Jewish man who died on a cross made you no longer one of the elect ........you no longer walked in the privileges which came with being one of the elect who happened to be born roman.........and since you are also not Jewish you are not one of God's chosen people.......
I think especially of the roman citizens who were predetermined, fore ordained, predestined because they were born roman to be higher then all other men.......I think how they lower themselves to follow the Lord......how they gave up the privileges to which they were born, by no actions or choice of their own, but only because those in power had declared them elect........above all others.
Then here comes Paul.........who was one of the few people who could claim to be elect both as a roman citizen and a Jew.........and he proclaims in the midst of the suffering, hardship and misery caused by being one of the non-elect....that God chose them to be His own..........that he speaks of his right, in the eyes of the world, to proclaim himself above them yet he doesn't because being elect ,by any other means then because God chose to make him His child, means nothing.
Is it possible the reason he speaks of not all who were born Jew being Jews(God's chosen people) or that being born a descendant of Abraham doesn't make you one of Abraham's children might be because he was speaking to an audience who needed to know, in a society which functioned and promoted some were elect and others were not, that it was not by chance of birth that we become one of the elect but because God has given each of us the free will to chose whether we are one of the elect or not?
Paul even goes so far to say in Romans 10:3 Those caught up in religion don't understand God's way of making people right with Him.....he then goes on to say how we become right with him.........how we become one of the elect..........by having faith in Him......faith in Him how? Faith that he loves us so much and desires a intimate relationship with us to such a degree that he gave His own son to die on the cross so that we might once again come into the right relationship with Him.......so that the curse, which was placed on us by the first Adam, who was the first elected I might add, would be removed so that we too could become one of those elected to walk with side by side with Him.
I think the reason the two thoughts are hard for us to reconcile and understand .........since Paul talks about the elect, those predestined, and also makes it clear that Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.........isn't because it is a mystery of the Lord ,impossible for us to understand, but because we try to make it too deep and theological and forget that each letter written, though written by the Lord through Paul, was written to a specific people,dealing with specific things in their lives, and spoke specifically to what was on their hearts and minds...........and unless we let the Holy Spirit speak to us in our specific circumstances and experience ,through the word, we are only understanding it based on what was happening during the period the theological belief was developed and how God was speaking to those people, during that time, amidst those circumstances which can and often is not what he was speaking to the first audience to read the letters.
The bible is the living Word of God.......it was never intended for it to be studied, a theory developed as to what it means, and then for the rest of man kind for that theory to be taught as law..........It was intended to speak to a specific people during a specific time in history and through seeking to understand what it said to those people....... and only by allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to us specifically during our period of history and our circumstances ...... can what seems impossible to understand become possible.
< Message edited by joy2give2u -- 9/8/2008 3:07:55 PM >
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Transformation happens NOT when we get through scripture BUT when scripture gets through Us
Lake Michigan
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/8/2008 4:38:03 PM
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John_O
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Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Pastor preached on this a little bit Sunday.
8:29 "Whom He did foreknow". He foreknew all of us. From before he formed us in the womb. Every last man and woman ever born.
Rom 8:29 "he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son".
Gen 1:26 ¶ "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: "
So He wanted us all to look like His image. Just like in the beginning!
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 9:33:24 AM
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John_O
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I've been made aware that certain terms I have used, and concepts I've discussed, need further elaboration.
1. Robots. A robot is something that does only what it's programming tells it to do. It has no free will and can make only the choices that it has been programmed to make.
I use this term to describe the determinist viewpoint of man. If God predetermines everything then He has already decided what our decisions, actions, thoughts etc will be and He is responsible for everything that happens. Just as a robot's programmer is responsible for everything the robot does. We can neither change it nor affect it, we can only go along with what has already been determined. There is no free will.
If we have no freedom to make free choices, then we are merely robots (or puppets if you prefer).
Of course I believe that man does have free will. God already knows what we will choose, and has planned accordingly, but He does not make the choice for us.
2. Force. If God arbitrarily determines who is to be saved and who is to be damned, then God is forcing us into either one of two eternities. He made the choice and nothing we can do will change it or affect it. We are just along for the ride.
I believe that God reveals himself to all men (Romans 1) and we choose to accept or refuse Him. While we cannot save ourselves, and we cannot earn our salvation, and we cannot come to him lest He makes the first move, we are still responsible for responding to Him.
Without freewill only force exists.
3. To a strict determinist prayer is commanded but useless, It changes nothing and can affect nothing because God has already decided everything and we have no voice.
But the bible tells us time and again to bring our requests to God (lots of places) and that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (Jas 5:16). Prayer truly does change things. Of course those changes were made in God's plans years before we were born but prayer still availeth much.
4. Preaching. To a strict determinist, nothing we do has any effect on anything. Whether we preach or do not preach doesn't really matter as it is useless activity with no hope of changing any person's life. (That is, those who are doomed to be saved will be saved and those who are doomed to be damned will be damned whether they are preached to or not).
Obviously I don't agree with that. Ro 10:12-17 Whether God knows the results of our preaching or not (and He does) He does not force those results to occur. Romans holds true, How will they believe unless they've heard.
5. One other point I'd like to address which I've not said but I've seen before many times.
"If God's will can be overruled than He's not God." I can't find any scriptural support for this whatsoever. In fact the existence of sin shows that God sometimes does not get exactly what he wants (Does God want us to sin? Why would he force us to commit things that are abomination to him?) but he does allow some things because they are necessary for Him to get what He really wants.
Again, "God is not willing that any should perish" (2 pet 3:9) Yet some do. Obviously God's will gets overruled in this instance. He ALLOWS it because there is something else He wants that requires us to have the freedom to refuse Him.
Now to the logical examination of the statement. Why would God's sovereignity (Nice segue back to topic hey?) be threatened if He allows someone else to get there way once in a while? Especially if the temporary override of His immediate will get's Him what He wants long term anyway? I don't see any problem here.
Please note that none of this makes us higher than God. We are still lower than pond scum and rely totally on His mercy for even the very air we breathe. But He does offer us the gift of life, and allows us to choose to accept it or not. I think Robb said it best. The bible clearly proclaims both predestination and freewill and we won't fully understand how that works until we get home.
(over slept this morning badly. So since I was taking a little leave decided to make a brief post (John_O, Brief post? Ya right!) before I headed into work.)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 10:01:46 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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Thanks for the definitions, John;
I think I pretty much understood your uses of the terms, but perhaps others didn't. Again...it will take some time but I will answer in the next 48 hours or so.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 10:23:35 AM
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AlwaysR8chel
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.... hey, just popping in here because I love reading Joy's posts....
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Joy2give2u, thanks for posting. Just in case you didn't know, we are following some guidelines in this discussion. They are in post #410, pg. 17. Do please check them out for future reference.
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.... just for my clarification....
Did you post this because you think Joy is not following the rules or just as a general reminder for everyone? 
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 1:02:54 PM
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joy2give2u
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quote:
General reminder. LOL What a relief.........Since I read your post this morning I have reread my post three times, reread the guidelines (yes I did read them before posting)several times and racked my brain trying to figure out what about my post made you think I was violating one of the guidelines and if I had offended labguy somehow........
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hey, just popping in here because I love reading Joy's posts.... Wow thank you Rach......I didn't realize you enjoyed reading my post.......here all this time I thought you read them because we were friends and you were obligated too LOL.....thank you for the compliment my friend. 
Shallbe maybe a little clarification might still help.
Though I sometimes read more "combative" threads I do not engage in the discussion because I see them more as a game per say..........there are two sides, teams, who's only purpose for posting is to score more points then the other side........this mentality is shown when team mates congradulate each other for what I would call a grand slam or dunk (in their opinion) while calling foul on the opposing team..... the refs seem to be fairly quiet and tend to let the game continue.........personally I don't think anyone will ever win because no one really seems to want to "listen and comtemplate" what the other side is saying. It seems to me each post is read looking for a weakness to expose and pounce on to show superioriity over another.
When I read your guidelines I though Yeah ......... finally someone is starting a thread where the "I am right you are wrong" mentality will not be seen.......where each voice will be heard, whether agreed upon or not, and serious consideration will be given to each person's thoughts/ beliefs.
I understood it to be a thread, not to prove a point one way or another, but to have an open running discussion. A thread which by asking and discussing questions we can each grow in our understanding... Is this correct?
Also a little clarification of the topic of the discussion might be helpful.....it may be I think the topic being discussed is different then what is being discussed.......
discussion of Sovereignty I looked up the word sovereignity and sovereign just to make sure I was not mistaken on the definition. I wasn't....So I guess what is confusing me is exactly what there is to discuss about the Lord's sovereignity? Since we are all Christians we all believe, based on the definition used in the dictionary, that God is Sovereign. Is there a question which would help me understand more what about sovereignity the thread is to address?
From the discussion I took the topic of discussion to be more about whether God gives us free will or not. Am I wrong?
Sorry about the confusion and I look forward to your post of clarification..........
Thank you for starting this thread........it will be nice to post in a thread, have a thoughtful deep discussion, without the I am right therefore you must be wrong and I am going to prove you are mentality.........
< Message edited by joy2give2u -- 9/9/2008 1:17:18 PM >
_____________________________
Transformation happens NOT when we get through scripture BUT when scripture gets through Us
Lake Michigan
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 1:53:22 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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quote:
When I read your guidelines I though Yeah ......... finally someone is starting a thread where the "I am right you are wrong" mentality will not be seen.......where each voice will be heard, whether agreed upon or not, and serious consideration will be given to each person's thoughts/ beliefs.
I understood it to be a thread, not to prove a point one way or another, but to have an open running discussion. A thread which by asking and discussing questions we can each grow in our understanding... Is this correct?
Yes. If anyone takes it as anything else I will do whatever it takes to bring it back on topic...including shutting the whole thing down completely.
quote:
Also a little clarification of the topic of the discussion might be helpful.....it may be I think the topic being discussed is different then what is being discussed.......
discussion of Sovereignty I looked up the word sovereignity and sovereign just to make sure I was not mistaken on the definition. I wasn't....So I guess what is confusing me is exactly what there is to discuss about the Lord's sovereignity? Since we are all Christians we all believe, based on the definition used in the dictionary, that God is Sovereign. Is there a question which would help me understand more what about sovereignity the thread is to address?
From the discussion I took the topic of discussion to be more about whether God gives us free will or not. Am I wrong?
Sorry about the confusion and I look forward to your post of clarification..........
Proper understanding of sovereignty and free will will show that the two are inextricably linked.
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Thank you for starting this thread........it will be nice to post in a thread, have a thoughtful deep discussion, without the I am right therefore you must be wrong and I am going to prove you are mentality.........
You're welcome. Just FYI to everyone: This is my PFY...it wasn't started for the purpose of having this discussion, though I'm quite willing for it to happen here. Coffee, tea, wine, cheese, beanbag and papasan chairs are always available next to the stacks of commentaries and exhaustive concordances. In my own mind, this is my "house" here on CW. You're all invited to come in and party, but I don't believe I have to put up with rudeness or violence, etc., here any more than I would put up with it in my own home from guests. Does that make sense?
And at the risk of sounding like a broken record (and NOT intended pointedly toward ANYONE, including Joy) you may post anything here you do not mind having challenged scripturally. I totally believe that if my theology is challenged it will only become better informed and stronger. If anyone comes in here who is afraid to have their beliefs challenged, I encourage them not to post.
Here, everyone wins, because everyone gets to learn. No one loses, unless they post in an unChristian manner, at which point they lose the right to be heard here.
Got it?
Ok.
More later! Help yourself to the goodies, and I'll be back. Play nice.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 2:17:23 PM
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joy2give2u
Posts: 5124
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline
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quote:
Proper understanding of sovereignty and free will will show that the two are inextricably linked. In your opinion what is the proper understanding of sovereignty? I am basing my understanding of the word based on the dictionary but would be interested to hear how yours might be a different
Already I am learning from this thread...... :D]
I was not sure what inextricable meant for sure so I had to look it up.....interesting.....
1. from which one cannot extricate oneself: an inextricable maze.
2. incapable of being disentangled, undone, loosed, or solved: an inextricable knot.
3. hopelessly intricate, involved, or perplexing: inextricable confusion
I agree God being sovereign, as defined in the dictionary,is dependent on free will. I guess I can see how they can not be separated......without me choosing to make him Lord of my life, ruler over me, my King, he can not be sovereign over me? Is that what you mean?
1. the quality or state of being sovereign.
2. the status, dominion, power, or authority of a sovereign; royalty.
3. supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community.
4. rightful status, independence, or prerogative.
5. a sovereign state, community, or political unit
As I was thinking about those two words and how they are connected I began to think of countries ruled by dictators. A dictator or leader can be given the status, dominion, power and authority over the people but unless they submit of their own free will does he ever really rule them? Is he really their king?
Think of Saddam (is that how you spell his name?) he was supreme in Iraq. He held all authority and power......he had claimed and possessed the country......yet because not all swore allegiance to him was he really ever a soverign leader over all?
Though he had power and authority, taken by military might and fear, was he truly a sovereign leader? Does forced submission, that given against the will of the people, ever really lead to sovereignty?
It seems to me true sovereignty can only be achieved by free will......by another freely submitting to the authority, power and rule of another.
Very interesting point Shallbe..........I never really saw free will and God's sovereignty quite so clearly before........
< Message edited by joy2give2u -- 9/9/2008 2:23:32 PM >
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Transformation happens NOT when we get through scripture BUT when scripture gets through Us
Lake Michigan
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/9/2008 3:17:02 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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Hm. Note to self: be more exact with wording.
Allow me to restate my position:
Proper examination of the doctrine of Sovereignty and the doctrine of free will will reveal that one cannot consider the scriptural foundation and veracity of one without also considering the scriptural foundation and veracity of the other.
quote:
In your opinion what is the proper understanding of sovereignty?
My opinion hardly matters. What matters is Truth.
Unfortunately, you and I are going to differ on that from the very beginning, I'm afraid. In a previous post you seemed to state your position on the Bible in such a way as to prevent you from relying on it as revealed truth from God for us today.
Since I believe it is revealed truth from God for us today, and that God Himself inspired it and saw to it that every jot and tittle were meaningful and important to a true understanding of Him and His character, one of us would have to change our belief in order for us to even have a conversation about the subject of sovereignty, because no matter how much scriptural evidence I could post to support my position, your position would prevent you from accepting that evidence. And no matter how many revelations from the Holy Spirit and from life and history you could post to support your position, I could not accept it.
So, we are already at an impass as far as discussing . 
We might discuss to good effect, however, the nature of scripture and whether it is reliable, inerrant, and applicable in every age.
Or would you care to correct me on my understanding of your previous post on the subject of scripture?
Yipes! Sorry folks...the time got away from me...gotta go to work, but I'll be back when I can.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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