RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Full Version)

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rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 11:51:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

RC - this is not a discussion regarding the eternal security of a born-again believer. Hebrews 6 is easily refuted for those that believe a real born-again believer can undue what Jesus holds secure in His Hand.

Like I noted earlier, referring to the belief of being eternally secure in Christ Jesus as a "pet theology" is fine for the goose as it is for the ...... the same could be said and referred to as the belief that we are one step away from undoing what Jesus once and for ever did on the cross.

BUT.. I digress. A question was asked and I responded to it in the best manner I know how.

Take care.


And yuou do discount that the sin Jesus referred to here;

(Mat 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

was only good for a spell, and cannot be committed today.

Earthless, I have great respect for you in the theology "Church" forum and your untireing effort to point out false teachers; but on this one you put folks in grave danger by telling them it is impossible for them to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Thanks
RC



earthless -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 11:54:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

by telling them it is impossible for them to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Thanks
RC


I did not say that. Please re-read my posts.



Coffee_Drinker -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 11:58:25 AM)

I have heard the same thing and I used to worry about it myself (denying the Holy Spirit). Dr. R.C. Sproul dedicated a radio show to this question once. To be brief; he stated the same thing as was mentioned above - "if you are concerned then you did not." He explained that we do not have the inherent ability to love God or Jesus in any way. It is the Holy Spirit of God that gives us the ability to love or feel emotion towards God or Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit of God that gives us the ability to be thankful and grateful for what Jesus Christ did when he died on the cross. If we were guily of that sin then we would not even be concerned about God, Christ or probably anything else.



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 12:26:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

by telling them it is impossible for them to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Thanks
RC


I did not say that. Please re-read my posts.


Earthless, you stated;

quote:

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but this was "THE" unpardonable blasphemy.

As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth. but seated at the right Hand of God.


"As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today"

Sounds to me like you are saying that balshpemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today.

Thsnks
RC



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 12:29:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker

I have heard the same thing and I used to worry about it myself (denying the Holy Spirit). Dr. R.C. Sproul dedicated a radio show to this question once. To be brief; he stated the same thing as was mentioned above - "if you are concerned then you did not." He explained that we do not have the inherent ability to love God or Jesus in any way. It is the Holy Spirit of God that gives us the ability to love or feel emotion towards God or Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit of God that gives us the ability to be thankful and grateful for what Jesus Christ did when he died on the cross. If we were guily of that sin then we would not even be concerned about God, Christ or probably anything else.


Nice secular theory being forced to try and make doctrine, but just will not reach the level of theology.

And for the same reason; to protect the Holy Grail of OSAS.

I will stay with what Christ said over what R.C. Sproul said.

Thanks
RC



Roberta_ -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 12:34:55 PM)

RC- I agree with you, but I may have missed where you stated what would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Would you be willing to repost that?



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 12:39:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

RC- I agree with you, but I may have missed where you stated what would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Would you be willing to repost that?


Please refer to Post 8.

Thanks
RC



Roberta_ -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 12:42:57 PM)

Thanks!



Coffee_Drinker -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 1:38:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Nice secular theory being forced to try and make doctrine, but just will not reach the level of theology.

And for the same reason; to protect the Holy Grail of OSAS.

I will stay with what Christ said over what R.C. Sproul said.

Thanks
RC


I have no idea what the "Holy Grail of OSAS" is.

I figured that was a no brainer but you had to verbalize it.

So, in your post #8, I gather this "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" no longer applies because it would be taken out of context if it were to be applied today?

Million dollar question...

Is there such a thing as an "Unforgivabe Sin?"



yustme -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 2:19:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dawnofthemorning

i thought that it was when the Pharisees said Jesus was casting out demons by the power of beelzebub......they denied the holy spirits existence in Jesus and were saying he was of the devil when his power came from God........i think i have done that same thing myself, but as i listen to the scripture, it sounds like they denied Jesus power which came from God through the Holy Spirit.....if that makes sense, but go through the book of Mathew, and read it until you understand it, that is where the answer lies, I'm no expert, and i have not been a christian for a very long time, i too am lost and feel like i have lost my salvation only because i dabbled in unclean things. although i continue to listen to the word on CD, i still feel like I'm in darkness................may God bless your pasturing if that is his calling for you.

If you truly feel you have lost you're salvation,PLEASE repent and He WILL forgive you of all your past sins.Please do it now.It's almost time for Jesus to come back and I'm sure you don't want to be lost in hell forever.



DaveW -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 2:23:16 PM)

Earthless - do you think antimissionaries could commit this sin?



laura... -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 3:07:36 PM)

quote:

When it comes to this topic it is also important we clearly define our terms. A lot of people think of other things/sins such as cursing God, or willfully degrading things relating to God.

It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him.

BUT this case of blasphemy, is a specific one, called "THE blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31.

In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24). Now notice that in Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what exactly they did to commit "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but this was "THE" unpardonable blasphemy.

As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth. but seated at the right Hand of God.

No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit.


I agree. This particular blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is no longer possible. There could be no doubt who Jesus was when he walked the earth. He fulfilled more than enough prophecy for the Pharisees, who were well studied concerning the Messiah, to know that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus being the Messiah, perfect and sinless, could not have been performing miracles by any spirit but the Holy Spirit.

Many false prophets have come and gone who have performed miracles by something other than the Holy Spirit. As the church we must be free to examine those miracles without fear of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit". Because no one other than Jesus is without sin there is always the possibility that a miracle could be the workings of something other than the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we don't have "irrefutable proof" of such things being the Holy Spirit.

With regards to the unforgivable sin taught about in Hebrews 6, one must first be enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift (Holy Spirit) and the word of God before such a one is capable of committing such a sin. It cannot be committed by mistake or out of ignorance.

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.



earthless -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 3:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Earthless - do you think antimissionaries could commit this sin?


Any one that is not born-again can commit it.



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 4:19:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Any one that is not born-again can commit it.


So you say one that is born again cannot commit it?

And you base this assumption on what?

Thanks
RC



Coffee_Drinker -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 4:24:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Any one that is not born-again can commit it.


So you say one that is born again cannot commit it?

And you base this assumption on what?

Thanks
RC


Why would they want to? Unless, maybe, they were not really born again anyway.



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 4:54:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Any one that is not born-again can commit it.


So you say one that is born again cannot commit it?

And you base this assumption on what?

Thanks
RC


Why would they want to? Unless, maybe, they were not really born again anyway.


Well that is kinda my point here, but yet again folks who claim to be Christians do all other kinds of sins. But they may not really be born again either.

Thanks
RC



earthless -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 5:03:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Any one that is not born-again can commit it.


So you say one that is born again cannot commit it?

And you base this assumption on what?

Thanks
RC


Why would they want to? Unless, maybe, they were not really born again anyway.


Well that is kinda my point here, but yet again folks who claim to be Christians do all other kinds of sins. But they may not really be born again either.

Thanks
RC


And that is what many do not understand or grasp - a person can claim to be a born-again believer all they want. Not everyone who claims they are His, indeed are.

But because of that fact, fickle sinful humans, I am not going to jettison the perfect, absolute, complete work Jesus did on the cross for you and me.



CCCdnt -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/28/2008 11:47:02 PM)

rcjames,
I do not believe in OSAS and believe that salvation is conditional. However, I am still searching God's Word to understand the correct CS position. I used to believe in OSAS as it was taught in the churches I grew up in and at the Christian schools I attended. I rejected the belief once I allowed myself to study the verses dealing with salvation without letting any preconceived ideas cloud my view. I also read both sides of the debate as previously I had primarily just read the OSAS side. However, once I decided that the Bible taught CS and my wife and I tried to find a church that did not teach OSAS, I found out that there are more than one belief regarding CS - from believing that it is possible to forfeit your salvation but is very rare to the belief that one sin (usually certain kinds of sins) will cause one to no longer be saved.

I was trying to understand from your posts what you believe the unpardonable sin, as I did not want to misunderstand. Do you believe that once a Christian chooses to leave Christ and forfeit his salvation, he has committed the unforgivable sin (what I have seen referred to as "Twice Lost, Always Lost)? (In our search for a church, I found that a lot of Free Will Baptists teach this - they do not as far as I know teach it as being the same as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but they do teach that once a Christian leaves Christ, the person is forever lost).
Thanks



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/29/2008 9:01:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I was trying to understand from your posts what you believe the unpardonable sin, as I did not want to misunderstand. Do you believe that once a Christian chooses to leave Christ and forfeit his salvation, he has committed the unforgivable sin (what I have seen referred to as "Twice Lost, Always Lost)? (In our search for a church, I found that a lot of Free Will Baptists teach this - they do not as far as I know teach it as being the same as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but they do teach that once a Christian leaves Christ, the person is forever lost).


I think when a person attributes and speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of satan; that is the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and I base that on the passage out of Matthew where Christ speaks of the sin.


How about the following statement to appease all my 5th point frinends about this.

If a person who thinks they are saved commits the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit; then they were never saved to begin with.


Thanks
RC



swordsman -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/29/2008 9:39:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DLindros

up until now I was so sure that I was saved. but my wife read something to me out of the scripture that I hadn't thought about. it says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. i know I've spoken against the Lord before many times in my life. I was a stupid kid who didn't believe in anything. but now I'm a devout Christian. I'm determined to be a Pastor. I want to spend my life serving Him and I truly repent for everything I've ever done. can I ever truly be saved? or have the mistakes of my past already condemned me? someone. please help.


sw: The blasphemy against the Spirit is really a very simple thing and the context of that discussion shows what it is. The Jews were attributing the miracles of the Spirit to Beelzebul and that was unforgiveable. Why?

It was the miracles that came through the Spirit that confirmed Jesus as the Christ. So, if one attributes those miracles to a devilish source, then how can one believe and be baptized and be saved (Mark 16:16)? John's gospel wrote of those miracles that men might believe (John 20:30,31). But credit them to the devil and how can one believe in Jesus?

God worked with the early church, confirming the word through signs and wonders (Acts 14:3). But if one looked at those miracles and declared that they were from the devil, how could one then listen to the gospel that was preached, believe and obey it?

A far bigger concern regarding one's salvation is the widespread false teachers and false doctrine of today that makes men THINK they are saved when they are not (Matt.7:21-23). But that's a different topic.

Swordsman



rcjames -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/29/2008 9:53:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsman
The blasphemy against the Spirit is really a very simple thing and the context of that discussion shows what it is. The Jews were attributing the miracles of the Spirit to Beelzebul and that was unforgiveable. Why?

It was the miracles that came through the Spirit that confirmed Jesus as the Christ. So, if one attributes those miracles to a devilish source, then how can one believe and be baptized and be saved (Mark 16:16)? John's gospel wrote of those miracles that men might believe (John 20:30,31). But credit them to the devil and how can one believe in Jesus?

God worked with the early church, confirming the word through signs and wonders (Acts 14:3). But if one looked at those miracles and declared that they were from the devil, how could one then listen to the gospel that was preached, believe and obey it?

A far bigger concern regarding one's salvation is the widespread false teachers and false doctrine of today that makes men THINK they are saved when they are not (Matt.7:21-23). But that's a different topic.


Swordsman,

I concur with your post and you make a very salient point about the "Easy believerism" that abounds today.

Thanks
RC



Coffee_Drinker -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/30/2008 3:26:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsman
It was the miracles that came through the Spirit that confirmed Jesus as the Christ. So, if one attributes those miracles to a devilish source, then how can one believe and be baptized and be saved (Mark 16:16)? John's gospel wrote of those miracles that men might believe (John 20:30,31). But credit them to the devil and how can one believe in Jesus?

God worked with the early church, confirming the word through signs and wonders (Acts 14:3). But if one looked at those miracles and declared that they were from the devil, how could one then listen to the gospel that was preached, believe and obey it?


Seems to boil down to whether or not a person believes that the Holy Bible IS the word of God or not. How can a person only believe "part" of the Bible and not believe other parts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsman
A far bigger concern regarding one's salvation is the widespread false teachers and false doctrine of today that makes men THINK they are saved when they are not (Matt.7:21-23). But that's a different topic.


Has this been discussed? I imagine it has at one time or another.



NobodyImportant -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (5/30/2008 8:32:45 PM)

Query: Blasphemy == Apostasy?

In the Old Testament the word 'Blasphemy' means to have contempt for something. Despise, Provoke. Our english word comes from Greek, not Hebrew, so we know the Hebrew words na'ats\ne'atsah have to be related to be translated such. In the New Testament the word 'Blasphemy' is a combination of 'Blapto' (Hurt) and 'Phemi' (Speech) or 'Pheme' (Fame\Report). So it literally means HurtSpeech. (Insult, defame, slander, etc.) The greek word for speech means to 'cast light' on your thoughts, while Fame\Report is a description of a person's nature & behavior, and is common with the paragraphs below.

You can commit blasphemy against anything but Jesus makes it clear that he is referring to a specific kind of blasphemy:
Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
(emphasis mine)

There are several things about the wording of this passage:
1. The word 'the' is not used here to differentiate the two blasphemies. They are identical except in object.
2. The words 'against the holy' are not present in the greek text until the next verse.
3. The word used is 'Blasphemia' - not 'Blasphemy.'
(It reads: 'The\His Blasphemia Spirit')

This is the pivot that defines the context. The term 'Spirit' may be twofold:
The Pharisee were attributing the work of God to Satan, so 'Spirit' is probably referring to the 'Holy Spirit' as Jesus confirms this in the next verse. The spirit in question being God's. This same word is used for the human spirit (without the holy part). Just as a person is defined largely by actions which reflect their inner thoughts\feelings\beliefs, ideals\values\morals, nature, loyalties, etc, their Heart\Mind, or Soul, this is largely how we know and interact with God[1]. In this sense, blasphemy of the holy spirit means to harm the reputation of God's character through insults & false teaching.

Another spirit is within the speaker. It's likely that this is a nod to the source of the above blasphemy, the spirit (of contempt) within which leads to the actions beyond. (Matthew 15:11?) This is supported by reading the passage above without the editor's comments. It's even further supported by the suffix 'ia' on 'Blasphemia' which describes a state or quality (of being blasphemous), rather than an isolated action (of blaspheming)[2]. It seems reasonable that this would be related to unrepentance, rejection of God, etc. Volitional and can't be forgiven. He tried. The overarching sin of the Pharisee was the rejection of Christ, so this meaning seems to be at (or very near) the heart of the issue, and Jesus probably meant both. (Starting with the Old Testament understanding and then expanding on it in the next verse as he commonly did.)

Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

This is unambiguous. The only wordplay in this verse are double meanings in the definitions of 'word' and 'against' which further condemn false prophets and slanderers. I don't see any way around this. On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy this is to accomplish either. For example, compare Job & friends to the Pharisee. All are arguably 'blaspheming' (in ignorance) and god even challenges them on this[3]. There is no indication that Job & friends are damned and Job is even blessed in the end. This suggests a component of malice is required, as his anguished appeals for a Christ he didn't know are the exact opposite of the Pharisee who indignantly conspired to murder a Christ they knew full well.

(1. I'm not defining the Trinity here, only describing a finite use of the word as it pertains to this context.)
(2. For examples of the 'ia' suffix defining a property see: Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges - Part III (§840 a9, b1-2))
(3. Job 38:2, 40:1-8, 42:7 - Notice that Job vindicates himself and his friends of their earlier falsehoods.)



loveineffable -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (6/6/2008 9:28:48 PM)

Food for thought here for you all
Consider this John 16, after the death, burial and ressurection. Jesus telling his disciples of the coming Holy Spirit and the Job of the Holy Spirit

John 16: 8 -11, yet important to read the whole chapter

(8)And when he is come (Holy Spirit) he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement
(9)of sin beacause they believe not on me (Jesus)
(10) Of righteousness, because I (Jesus) go to my Father, and ye see me no more
(11) Of Judgement, because the prince of this world is judged.

So according to this chapter of the Holy Ghost it is his job to lead others to believe in Christ
Also to show you , you are forgiven, and as well the prince of this world has been defeated

But it starts with one to believe in Christ. We were born as unbelievers. To stay an unbeliever is blasphemy, rejection as they rejected Christ already back in matt.
The Holy Spirits job to convict the world of their unbelief in Christ, and what he did for you. Refusing to trust Christ, and what he did at the cross for you, me and anyone else that believes.
He took the sin of the whole world out of the way except for the unbelief, in his Fathers Spirit, so the Spirit can come and live in you, upon belief.
Back in Matthew, the pharisees did not believe in him. There are still people today that believe, or know he is real, yet refuse to put their faith in him. So really they just claim to believe. Actions speak louder than words and the justified live by faith in Christ period, Romansw 1:17

The only thing Christ did not die for is unbelief. If you put your trust in him you shall be saved, if you do not, I am sorry for those that do not.
In light of knowing it is either belief or unbelief that Paul is talking about along with the other disciples, after the ressurection, The word becomes clear and flows.

About hebrews Chapter 6. Try start reading hebrews 5:12 on through to 6:6 and maybe it might be clearer what the author meant. Seeing how God is the Author. Man just messes it up
ineffable love



mvic -> RE: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (6/7/2008 8:12:49 PM)

At the risk of re-opening the whole debate as to whether "whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven - now or ever" Matthew 12:32.

May I point out that:

1 In the times of Christ they did not have recording equipment as we have now so it could be possible that what was said may have been miss-recorded in the Bible when it was written.

2 The Bible has been translated from its original languages to English and other modern languages. More room for miss-interpretation.

3 The New Testament was written by interviewing people through word of mouth and generally remembering what happened sometime after the events. More room for errors.

Now, before I'm attacked from all quarters - I'm not saying that the words in the Bible are not true. What I'm saying is that it is a book of Faith and a lot that is said there we should take and believe through Faith.

I know theologists and other learned men have debated the Bible for years - yet I wonder, what does God make of all this debate? Does He despair that we missed the point altogether? To believe without incessantly asking for proof, chapter and verse and irrefutable evidence. That's what Faith is all about - isn't it?

Coming back to the sin in question: whether it is forgivable or not, (now or ever) is surely up to God not us.

We are taught that God is all loving and forgiving. This being so, are we to believe that someone "who says something against the Holy Spirit" today in the 21st Century; and then truly repents - will not be forgiven: now or ever?

Let's set aside for a moment whether this sin is capable of being committed today. If it were possible to commit it, and then truly repent, is it really unforgivable?

Is this truly the action of a loving and forgiving God?



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