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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 9:20:48 AM
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P31W
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The one I didn't answer:
23 "'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.
This again deals with God's wisdom in practical matters. The forth year deals with God's holiness. Anyone who has lived on a farm and planted crops, raised animals or grown fruit trees knows that many of these laws are used today and even taught in some of our best universities.
quote:
When you move to a new place you can't eat the local fruit for 3 years. (Leviticus 19:23,24)
Notice your lack of understanding the actual passage lead you to post the incorrect question.
Notice too that I gave you spiritural application and practical application for each law you presented to me. The law is God's standard not just "busy work". It contains great wisdom for the one who truly desires to know it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 9:33:57 AM
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jbbaab44
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LOL
I love how you want to be obedient to the principles but not the laws except when it comes to tithing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 9:37:43 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
literal instructions
Find for me ONE post on this thread that teaches the "literal instruction" as something we are to obey. Just one. I double dog dare you to find one.
The only people on this ENTIRE FORUM who hold that that type of view don't even come to this thread. They know the "literla instruction" is to the nation of Isreal. Just as the "rest" of us know that.
I couldn't stick to just one,so I gathered a few of your post in particular that confuse me.I'm not being smart or ganging up on you.I honestly am confused by your position at times.It seems to me that you and I should be on the same page if we both believe that tithing is not required,yet acceptable to practice on principle.
Here are some of your post here:
P31W
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quote:
I am against saying 10% is a minimum, or a standard, or a requirement for other saints besides yourself.
This is what you said to me just a few days ago.
Sorry but I teach the bible. 10% is a standard in scripture and it is the min. God told us to give back to him.
P31W
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Status: online I am not going to play anymore. Some people use the excuse they cannot afford to give a min. of a tithe back to God because they don't want to go to work and earn enough money to do that and support their family.
I won't fall for that trick of satan. Bye
P31W
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Status: online Sorry but those are OT laws and we are no longer under the law but grace. We can do what we feel the Holy Spirit is telling us to do. So if I believe the Holy Spirit is telling me to have an affair then I can.
After all God wants me to be happy. That is why being a "cheerful giver" is a New Testament requirement.
P31W
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quote:
lawless?
There have always been groups of people who claim to be both Christian and lawless.
Christanity is not lawlessness. If anything we have the power to obey the law the way God intended it to be obeyed.
Christ did not come to do away with the law. He came to fufill it's requirements so that we are no longer under the "curse" of the law. The curse of the law is death.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:20:07 AM
P31W
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The tithe is the biblical min. standard of giving back to God according to scripture. It was God himself who set this standard. He never revolked it under the new covenant and He knew we would be discussing it today.
When I teach I teach the Bible God's Holy Word. I do not teach people to follow a spirit they hear until they have compared it to God's word....all of it not selected passages. Then and only then can they know for sure they are hearing from God and not satan.
Even a child is known by their actions.
The "average" American Christian living in the most affulent country in the world gives less than a "fraction" back to God than the poor nation of Isreal gave living under the law and without the indewelling of the Holy Spirit to transform them. Before Christ died on the Cross for their sins.
Those poor people gave more than we do today as an average. Why is that? Maybe they are listening to spirits and not checking to see where that spirit is coming from?
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:43:21 AM
P31W
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Status: online Do you think it has something to do with the way you and I view God Himself? How we see him?
I know before I was "tested" (tithed when we were broke and bad financial shape) it did not have for me the meaning that it does today. I could not understand the power of God until I experienced it and lived it in my life. I KNEW that we could not do anything to help ourselves in our situation. I knew when God stepped in and preformed miracles. I know it was God showing Himself to us. Looking back I realized that it was during those hard times and God forcing us to remain in a state of limbo that He was teaching us about Himself. He was preparing us for a new type of work.
God told us that the purpose of the tithe was so that we could "learn to revere the Lord your God always". I guess that is what I learned by continuing to trust God with the tithe and allowing him to work out the other details. I know my faith is much stronger today than it would have been had I used that money that belonged to God for our medical bills, etc. because I would have been trusting in my ability to do things and not forced to trust in God's ability.
Lastly I'll finish with this post where once again you confuse me by saying you don't teach tithing as requirement.:
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:46:01 AM
P31W
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Status: online What do I expect?
Honesty in discussing the most important book we have. God's word. You chose to leave out key passages to suit your own beliefs.
Your next post is showing once again a lack of your ability to hold on to what you say you believe. You say you believe Cheerful giving is a requirement. I want to debate that.
You said you don't believe people such as myself should teach tithing. Again I debate that.
I have never debated tithing as a "requirement" nor baptism or witnessing or any other "discipline" of the believer. Much less cheerful giving.
You said that you believe tithing is not for the NT believer again I will debate that.
You said it's not biblical again I debate that.
You said many off the wall things on your website that are simply false. I debate that.
What I have never debated is that Tithing is Required.
I don't mean to be smart,it's just a little confusing what your point is here.I know I have never said that giving God a tithe is wrong,it is the teaching of tithe as God's eternal minimum standard/requirement I take issue with.Though no one here has been offensive to non tithers.I take offence to pro-tithers who refer to me as a God robber.
I know they believe they are just calling like God calls it,or like they see it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 9:41:02 AM
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P31W
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None of those post have me teaching the OT law on tithing. I can and have taught the OT law on tithing but never have I taugh it as a practical matter that "we" can obey to the "letter" today. To begin with I am not a jew and I don't know any jewish Christians who live in the promise land. No need to me to speak to the wind.
quote:
It seems to me that you and I should be on the same page if we both believe that tithing is not required,yet acceptable to practice on principle.
Yes we should. But for some reason it bugs you that I teach the tithing principle.
quote:
Lastly I'll finish with this post where once again you confuse me by saying you don't teach tithing as requirement.:
Required for what? Is praying required? Holy living? Loving your enemies? What exactly do you mean by required? Is "giving" required?
Is supporting the widows in your congregation required? Is paying your teacher/preacher required? Is giving honor to your pastor required? Is obeying the laws of the land required?
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/20/2008 9:50:37 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 9:49:00 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I take offence to pro-tithers who refer to me as a God robber.
I've never called anyone in my entire life on the forum or off a God robber. I have quoted scripture where God calls people robbers but I have never said that.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:07:56 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
None of those post have me teaching the OT law on tithing. I can and have taught the OT law on tithing but never have I taugh it as a practical matter that "we" can obey to the "letter" today. To begin with I am not a jew and I don't know any jewish Christians who live in the promise land. No need to me to speak to the wind.
quote:
It seems to me that you and I should be on the same page if we both believe that tithing is not required,yet acceptable to practice on principle.
Yes we should. But for some reason it bugs you that I teach the tithing principle.
quote:
Lastly I'll finish with this post where once again you confuse me by saying you don't teach tithing as requirement.:
Required for what? Is praying required? Holy living? Loving your enemies? What exactly do you mean by required? Is "giving" required?
Is supporting the widows in your congregation required? Is paying your teacher/preacher required? Is giving honor to your pastor required? Is obeying the laws of the land required?
This for me is not about a gotcha moment,or a senseless argument about tithing.I have been and continue to be confused by your position on tithing.When you make comments like The tithe belongs to God,or it's not right that you keep or spend God's money,that for me smacks of requirement.That is I must at a minimum set aside 10% of Gods money without fail or hesitation otherwise I have robbed God.
This is what I hear you say,yet you also say that you teach the principle not the requirement.Most pro tithers are much more consistent and forthcoming in their views than you are.
They simply teach a modified, unauthorized, spiritually plagiarized version of the Mosaic tithing law requirement.They use Malachi as their trump card,and call people like myself God robbers,question my salvation as being legitimate,and call me cursed.
I can read their signs pretty clearly.It's your sign that I'm most confused with.
For the record I have no problem with you or Jimbo or anyone else here or anywhere that believe God is requiring,or you simply choose to honor him with a tithe.I honor God with my giving as well.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:16:28 AM
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P31W
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When it comes to what we give back to God we must ask ourselves "what is a worthy gift"? David said I will not give back to God something that cost me nothing. I teach people to turn to scripture. All of it. Not just select passages in the NT that deal with giving to a one time fund.
Now if that offends you I am sorry. But I give an account to God for what I teach and how I live my life. You must do the same. We each stand alone.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:21:11 AM
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P31W
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quote:
LOL
I love how you want to be obedient to the principles but not the laws except when it comes to tithing.
It appears to me that you "fail' to understand much of what I posted.
Nor does it appear that you realize what the law really says.
So you take the Lords name in vain?
OT law vs NT understanding of the deeper meaning that required it to be obeyed at a much higher level.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:26:59 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
OT law vs NT understanding of the deeper meaning that required it to be obeyed at a much higher level.
Is giving a minimum of 10% really the deeper meaning of the OT law?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:28:30 AM
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P31W
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No. It's merely a baby step.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:31:27 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
When it comes to what we give back to God we must ask ourselves "what is a worthy gift"? David said I will not give back to God something that cost me nothing. I teach people to turn to scripture. All of it. Not just select passages in the NT that deal with giving to a one time fund.
Now if that offends you I am sorry. But I give an account to God for what I teach and how I live my life. You must do the same. We each stand alone.
We don't stand alone in the respect that we both get on this forum and for you teach others what we believe to be an applicable use of God's word.
I listen to everyone on this forum,when they post a comment,and I allow myself to be examined by what is said.I need you,and you need me.I need you to be plain spoken and consistent in what you believe God is saying or just keep silent and stand alone.
I try to speak words that are as clear and accurate as I can.I try not to speak as an authoritarian on any subject I address.This particular issue for me,is one I continue to hold up to the light to ensure I am not being deceived by myself.
It helps me to hear people of opposing view state their case so that I can see if indeed I am missing something.I am thoroughly confused how any learned man or woman can teach tithing according to the hybrid Mosaic requirement.
I'm baffled by it,I mean there are some well respected doctors of theology,my own Pastor included who teach this,yet I've not once in my limited travels had one Pastor who was willing to sit down with me and teach me how they arrived at the Hybrid gospel on tithing.
They all seem to use Jesus said we are to tithe,or Abraham tithe before the law so tithing pre-dates the law.Or it's an eternal principle.If all else fails what Malachi said.
I would to God I could have a honest civil discussion with a pro tither about how God is expecting me to set aside 10% of the 100% he gives me as a minimum requirement.
Don't even get me started about offerings.I've yet to hear anyone address how offerings in Malachi magically became money in the plate offering in the new testament.
This tithing issue for me is the single most perplexing,twisted teaching I know of.I believe it by far does more harm than good.I believe it breeds self righteous,defeated, guilty, lying,stealing,greedy, cheating Christians,which is a shame and totally unnecessary.
edited to correct grammatical errors.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:35:07 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
No. It's merely a baby step.
Sure, so is circumcision, so is eating clean and unclean meats, so is sacrificing animals. . .
Yeah, that's why Jesus said to the Pharisees, "clean the inside of your cup FIRST" - That is the baby step.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:37:48 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Don't even get me started about offerings.I've yet to hear anyone address how offerings in Malachi magically became money in the plate offering in the new testament.
You have never hear me say that. In fact I often correct people's misunderstanding of that term. More times than not it deals with what we today would call a sacrifice. I have said that in the past.
quote:
This tithing issue for me is the single most perplexing,twisted teaching I know of.I believe it by far does more harm than good.I believe it breeds self righteous,defeated guilty lying,stealing,greedy cheating Christians,which is a shame a totally unnecessary.
I don't believe when scripture is taught properly it does harm. The word of God is sharper than a two edged sword and it will accomplish what God sends it out to do.
Considering we live in the most wealthy affuient country in the world and the average christian gives less to God's work than they do to the local cell phone company or their cable company I think it's a doctrine that needs to be taugh more often along with all the other financial principles God has laid out for us in His word. They are for our good.
I believe the con men (who also existed in Paul's day) along with the chruches failure to teach all God's financial principles have lead the individual and the church into a wrong view of money and inturn most Chritians financial lives are not a testimoney of God's goodness but of human greed and lack of caring what God has to say.
Then again the buck stops with each of us. We should all know these financial principles, be teaching them in our home and living them in the world. I think the failure to do that is why most christians give less than a poor jew did under the law.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 10:58:36 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
Then again the buck stops with each of us. We should all know these financial principles, be teaching them in our home and living them in the world. I think the failure to do that is why most christians give less than a poor jew did under the law. Speaking of poor Jews help me with my understanding of something.I thought that gleaning laws and tithing and alms were set up to help the poor.That the poor were not to give tithes but be helped by the tithe.
Am I missing something?
Also I thought the wealthy or relatively wealthy were the only one's tasked with tithing,as you had to be a land owner in order to raise livestock and have a harvest.
I understand about plots of land and farm animals,but God's tithe required the tenth animal be given not ten percent of your animals.
Help me out with this please.
Why is there no jubilee being taught,no exchanging tithe for money and buying beer and strong drink and whatsoever your soul desires after.How does this apply to the hybrid Mosaic tithe the NT Church teaches?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 11:19:14 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
Find for me ONE post on this thread that teaches the "literal instruction" as something we are to obey. Just one. I double dog dare you to find one.
I didn't join this thread to play games.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 11:19:25 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Speaking of poor Jews help me with my understanding of something.I thought that gleaning laws and tithing and alms were set up to help the poor.That the poor were not to give tithes but be helped by the tithe.
I was using the term "poor" as in our American defination of it. In the Bible the poor were those without any means. They would die from no food. In the USA a person is considered to be poor if they cannot afford what their neighbors have.
quote:
Also I thought the wealthy or relatively wealthy were the only one's tasked with tithing,as you had to be a land owner in order to raise livestock and have a harvest.
The Bible mentions nothing about only the wealthy or upper income folks giving a tithe. Most people in the OT had their own household gardens where they grew their personal food. Notice the Pharasees tithed of dill and mint these were two household herbs that were not grown in mass quanities rather each individual grew their own. I grow alot of my own food. It's on less than a quarter acre of land. Notice the woman in Proverbs 31. Yes her household was wealthy but she also grew her own food and had her own vineyard for her household use and extra to sell or barter.
quote:
I understand about plots of land and farm animals,but God's tithe required the tenth animal be given not ten percent of your animals.
That would be a tithe of your increase. What if you had animals to survive for 7 years? How many animals would you have if you had to give 10% of your entire heard each year and not just the increase?
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Why is there no jubilee being taught
That occured every fifty years and had to do with returning the land to the tribe it belonged to, (except that which was given to God in a vow that land could never be returned) - giving your slaves their freedom and so on. That points us to Jesus so clearly dosen't it. As far a practical application here in the US I don't think it would work unless one views the law in an extremely legalist sort of way.
Now when it comes to the seven year of cancelation of debts. I do pretty much teach and uphold that principle. I also hold to the principle of not charging Christians interest on loans. These in my opinion deal with keeping a brother/sister in financial bondage to you. Extending to them the grace God extended to us. Giving them the freedom to do what God calls them to do with their life. I have never expected a debtor to pay off a debt after the 7th year. More times than not I will release them earlier if I see it's causing them harm.
quote:
no exchanging tithe for money and buying beer and strong drink and whatsoever your soul desires after
Everyone I know gives money/check as a tithe. We the chruch will many times a year use a portion of that money to celebrate the Lord's goodness towards us. We thank him and give him honor and praise and enjoy fellowship with Him as a family. Our next fellowship and praise meal will occur in about a month and a half.
quote:
How does this apply to the hybrid Mosaic tithe the NT Church teaches?
Sometimes there are practial things we can do. Such as not cosigning a loan, not getting ourselves into surety, debt forgiveness, supporting our families and giving a min. of a tenth of our income to the Lord. These are practical matters that we can follow that come from a heart that sees the beauty in God's instructions.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 11:23:27 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I didn't join this thread to play games.
Then don't imply that anyone here is teaching something that is not being taught. Don't go there.
So you agree that no one has been teaching the "literal tithe law" to be obeyed today.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 11:26:05 AM
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sunofone
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Thank you for your prompt reply Pw.I do appreciate the response.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 2:48:41 PM
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P31W
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quote:
From my experience outside this forum, I would definitely say that there are Christians who hold (not necessarily teach) that we should follow the literal instructions of the OT. That statement stands on its own regardless of whether or not any of the 3100 prior posts teach obedience to literal instructions or not.
So those people don't tithe. Unless of course they live in Isreal, know some Levites and do some farming.
quote:
My statement is not, in and of itself, an allegation that anyone in this thread HAS taught that we we to follow the literal instructions.
I believe you. What you don't realize is that over and over and over again we are accused of that. Jumping into this thread I know it's possible for you to not realize the false things being said.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/20/2008 3:03:20 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 3:00:48 PM
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P31W
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De 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
This is a law. Do any of you who don't believe the law is for us today believe it's wrong for me to teach the above passage in both it's practical and spiritural terms?
If I do would you ask me if it's a requirement?
If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 3:44:00 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?
Because you obey tithing is not the problem. You teach against those that say tithing is not a requirement. That's the problem.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 3:48:35 PM
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jbbaab44
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Tithing is not a requirement and is not the only way to give, but yet you are against those that teach about freewill, spirit-led giving.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 3:57:21 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Tithing is not a requirement and is not the only way to give, but yet you are against those that teach about freewill, spirit-led giving.
I just have serious problems with the scripture most that I've heard use to support it.
Now that you've shown a dislike for applying principles not directly addressed in a passage, you will more than likely point to passages intended for voluntary contributions to foreign missions as the guide for all NT giving. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.
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