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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:55:44 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
You need to really think about what God expects as a minimum
How do you determine how much to give (keeping in mind we don't really give God anything because all of it came from Him)?
How do you determine how much offerings above the tithe you should give?
So you have no plan then? Just start giving until it hurts, then take a little back until cheerfulness sets back in...
P31W, I see what you mean, ask a simple, straightforward question and, instead of a straight answer, you only get evasion or subterfuge.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 5:18:30 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
You need to really think about what God expects as a minimum
How do you determine how much to give (keeping in mind we don't really give God anything because all of it came from Him)?
How do you determine how much offerings above the tithe you should give?
So you have no plan then? Just start giving until it hurts, then take a little back until cheerfulness sets back in...
No plan? How do you determine which church you go to? How do you determine which ministry you serve in? How do you determine which school to send your children to? Doesn't God communicate to us through his Spirit? Being guided by the Spirit means hearing what He's prompting you to do and obeying. In order for you to hear God, you actually have to have a deep relationship with Him. Anyone can give automatedly or under duress without a relationship with God. If your relationship with God is suffering, then your evil heart and mind will subdue God's calling. Your giving will wean, your service will lack, and your love will dwindle.
God sent his son so that we could have a relationship with him. This is what the New Covenant brought for us. Jesus didn't sacrifice for us, so our sanctification can be brought through the same automated steps that our forefathers practiced in rituals and ordinances. That barrier is broken and that means we have direct access to God. We do not need to automatically tithe. Our relationship with God allows us to directly communicate with God, and seek how much and where we can give. This is what God wants. He doesn't want a tithing law that allows his children to passively give.
You give through the Spirit with your offerings above the tithe, so don't act like Spirit directed giving is a ouija board decision. It's amazing to me how the Spiritual gift of giving is the only one that has a prerequisite before you can allow yourself to be instructed by the Spirit.
How many times do i have to say it? cheerfulness has nothing to do with a decision on whether to give or not. I have never Never Never ever NEVER stated that cheerfulness is a prerequisite in order to give. I don't know how many times i have to deny your accusation about this. I feel like i have to get on the 6 o'clock new to announce it to the world so that you will finally quit it.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/17/2008 5:33:35 AM
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Strider33
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I'm jumping into this huge thread without reading much of any of the prior responses. There are just too many of them. I apologize if my remarks duplicate ground that others have already covered.
I want to take a somewhat radical view of the whole question raised.
How much of the wealth you earn is God's gift to you? All of it.
How much does God want back? All of it.
In the lesson of the widow's mite, Jesus called attention to what the widow did not because she put the coin into the offering, but because she offered up all she had to God.
Having said that, I hasten to add that money spent of food for yourself or for your family might be part of what gets offered up to God. It depends on whether you are buying food you need, or just food to satisfy your own selfish desires. The boundary line between the two is grayer than I'm making it sound. Good tasting food isn't necessarily ungodly spending, and it costs more.
Now the question is, how much of your income should you put in the collection box of your church? How much should you donate to charities that you decide are doing God's work? How much should you donate to charities that are doing humanitarian work, although they may not be ostensibly doing that work in God's name? How much of that is "tithe"?
How much of the money you put into the local church collection should go for operating expenses of the church itself, like paying for heating the meeting house next winter? Is that really dedicating that wealth to the Lord? Is heating your own home not dedicating that wealth to the Lord?
I tithe about 10% myself. But I don't consider that 10% is some magic number, even though I see that number in the Bible. I think that number in the OT needs to be understood in the context of how the Levites were supported in OT times. Who are the Levites under the new covenant?
As far as the "cheerfulness" subtopic goes, you should figure out how much you ought to give. Give that much. And do it cheerfully. If you can't give that much cheerfully, work on your attitude. If you can't fix your attitude yourself, pray.
I'm making it sound real simple. I don't think it necessarily is that simple, but it's useful for purposes of discussion.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/17/2008 9:52:02 PM
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Theophile2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I'm jumping into this huge thread without reading much of any of the prior responses. There are just too many of them. I apologize if my remarks duplicate ground that others have already covered.
I want to take a somewhat radical view of the whole question raised.
How much of the wealth you earn is God's gift to you? All of it.
How much does God want back? All of it.
In the lesson of the widow's mite, Jesus called attention to what the widow did not because she put the coin into the offering, but because she offered up all she had to God.
Having said that, I hasten to add that money spent of food for yourself or for your family might be part of what gets offered up to God. It depends on whether you are buying food you need, or just food to satisfy your own selfish desires. The boundary line between the two is grayer than I'm making it sound. Good tasting food isn't necessarily ungodly spending, and it costs more.
Now the question is, how much of your income should you put in the collection box of your church? How much should you donate to charities that you decide are doing God's work? How much should you donate to charities that are doing humanitarian work, although they may not be ostensibly doing that work in God's name? How much of that is "tithe"?
How much of the money you put into the local church collection should go for operating expenses of the church itself, like paying for heating the meeting house next winter? Is that really dedicating that wealth to the Lord? Is heating your own home not dedicating that wealth to the Lord?
I tithe about 10% myself. But I don't consider that 10% is some magic number, even though I see that number in the Bible. I think that number in the OT needs to be understood in the context of how the Levites were supported in OT times. Who are the Levites under the new covenant?
As far as the "cheerfulness" subtopic goes, you should figure out how much you ought to give. Give that much. And do it cheerfully. If you can't give that much cheerfully, work on your attitude. If you can't fix your attitude yourself, pray.
I'm making it sound real simple. I don't think it necessarily is that simple, but it's useful for purposes of discussion.
Excellent Strider33 --- and thanks for taking us back to where this post's topic is; the grace we are under, the principles we are given in the NT, and the freedom to choose in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 7:58:53 AM
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P31W
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quote:
And Jesus was very clear about what activities constitute living a holy life.
Mt 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Lu 11:42
But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 8:08:52 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Excellent Strider33
I agreee that this is an excellant post. Scripture is there to help guide us in what we give back to God. All of scripture not just the passages recorded after the resurrection.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:00:47 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Excellent Strider33
I agreee that this is an excellant post. Scripture is there to help guide us in what we give back to God. All of scripture not just the passages recorded after the resurrection.
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:07:49 AM
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P31W
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quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:10:56 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
I'm glad to hear that you give your tithe to the levites still, and place it in a storehouse, and give only of your agriculture and animals. But of course you think that these ordinances are not important.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:11:49 AM
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P31W
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The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
quote:
quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
You don't need to question me you need to question the spirit that tells you this and compare it to what God Himself says about his ordinances and laws.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:30:59 AM
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jbbaab44
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Speaking of obeying God's word . . . i haven't found the changes you've made to tithing anywhere in the bible. You have changed who we give it to, where we give it, what we give, how often we give it, and how you give it.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:03:51 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Speaking of obeying God's word . . . i haven't found the changes you've made to tithing anywhere in the bible. You have changed who we give it to, where we give it, what we give, how often we give it, and how you give it.
Just as you are dishonest about God says you are dishonest about what I teach.
quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:06:38 PM
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jbbaab44
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Everyone is confused about what you teach. You say the tithe isn't required but yet you debate with people who don't believe in the tithing requirement.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:09:34 PM
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P31W
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quote:
quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
Currently in this tithe debate thread I am examining your false doctrine concerning God's perfect laws.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:12:32 PM
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P31W
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I believe the last time I was in debate with you it was over your doctrine that "cheerfulness was a requirement". Another false man-made doctrine used to justify man centered theology rather than God centered.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:14:25 PM
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jbbaab44
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Well then i guess your salvation makes you sad.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:19:53 PM
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jbbaab44
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2 tim 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Leviticus 27:30
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s. It is holy to the Lord
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:20:34 PM
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P31W
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quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
This is false doctrine and contradicts God's clear teachings about His ordinances and laws.
God also never made "cheerfulness a requirment". That is another false doctrine.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:21:36 PM
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P31W
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Are you going to admit that two of your foundational doctrines are in opposition to God's word?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:24:49 PM
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jbbaab44
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Phillippians 4:4
rejoice in the lord always and again i say rejoice
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:26:27 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Are you going to admit that two of your foundational doctrines are in opposition to God's word?
Are you going to admit that joy is a fruit of the Spirit?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:32:25 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Are you going to admit that two of your foundational doctrines are in opposition to God's word?
Are you going to admit that joy is a fruit of the Spirit?
Joy has nothing to do with cheerfulness. Nothing. Cheerfulness is a mood, an emotion based on your current state of mind. It can be drummed up or dashed depending on circumstances.
Joy transcends circumstances and is based on a sure status of our position in Jesus Christ. You emotional state or mood can bounce all over the map but biblical, Holy Spirit produced Joy remains steadfast, like biblical Hope. If you don't have that kind of steadfast Joy, then yours is something else, an unreliable emotional condition.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:33:36 PM
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P31W
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You are being silly because you don't want to admit that your foundation is false. That you are teaching things in direct opposition to scripture. You treat God's perfect laws with contempt and now you are doing the same with the rest of scripture.
I won't play your game. You are treading on dangerous territory.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:33:42 PM
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jbbaab44
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ps 20:5
We will rejoice in your salvation,
And in the name of our God we will set up our banners!
Ecc 11:9,10
Rejoice, O young man, in your youth,
And let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth;
Walk in the ways of your heart,
And in the sight of your eyes;
But know that for all these
God will bring you into judgment.
Therefore remove sorrow from your heart,
And put away evil from your flesh,
For childhood and youth are vanity.
Isaiah 25:9
And it will be said in that day:
“Behold, this is our God;
We have waited for Him, and He will save us.
This is the Lord;
We have waited for Him;
We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.”
Isaiah 65:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
Joel 2:23
Be glad then, you children of Zion,
And rejoice in the Lord your God;
Habakkuk 3:18
Yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
I will joy in the God of my salvation.
Heb 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
1 Peter 4:13
but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.
Gal 5:22
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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