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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 8:21:13 PM
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buckifn
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Tithing only works for those who believe. If you can't believe don't give. I think that is pretty simple.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 8:41:12 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Tithing only works for those who believe. If you can't believe don't give. I think that is pretty simple.
What do you mean "only works"? That sounds almost like some formula. When I worship the Lord with a tithe of my income, it is in gratitude for what He has given me and to acknowledge that He is my source for everything good in my life, not in order to get anything else. I know that He will provide for my financial needs, but He might even choose to increase my blessings by allowing me to be laid off and take a job at a lower salary.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 9:16:33 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I think many of the anti-tithers have fallen pry to that false doctrine and that is one reason why they are dogmatic in their stance.
The teaching of new T believers to the OT law of tithing is akin to telling NT believers to be circumcised. it is part of the 613 commnadments given to israel. James says if you break one of these commandments, you break the whole law. So if you wanna keep the law of tithing, then you have to be circumcised and the lot.
The law of tithes was made for Israel for the purpose of upkeeping the temple priesthood. It was made up of foodstuff there were feasts to celebrate the tithes. The total tithe was not 10%. Itb was more like 25 to 30% in Total.
The NT beliver is led by the Holy Spirit to give cheerfully. In fact , the first to be taken care of is not giving to the organisational church. It is first to the family, next widows and orphans,.......the church has oft misused the Malachi passage to bond the belivers to tithing, taking this passage outta context. This was the Lord speaking to the priest who were stealing the portions! Is your preist/pastor telling you this?
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 3:11:08 AM
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Theophile2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
The teaching of new T believers to the OT law of tithing is akin to telling NT believers to be circumcised. it is part of the 613 commnadments given to israel. James says if you break one of these commandments, you break the whole law. So if you wanna keep the law of tithing, then you have to be circumcised and the lot.
The commentaries I've read indicate Jesus does not condemn tithing here (I don't see Him making it a "law" either, He just says you should be doing it, much like when He says "Bless those who persecute you" ... which isn't a "law" either but obviously it is something we should be doing):
Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Also, regarding OT monetary versus meat/grain offerings:
"The law required the Jews to devote a tenth part of all their property to the support of the Levites, Nu 18:20-24. Another tenth part they paid for the service of the sanctuary, commonly in cattle or grain, but where they lived far from the place of worship they changed it to money, De 14:22-24. Besides these, there was to be every third year a tenth part given to the poor, to be eaten at their own dwellings De 14:28-29; so that nearly one-third of the property of the Jews was devoted to religious services by law. This was besides the voluntary offerings which they made." (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible; 1798-1870, e-sword).
... in other words, they gave well over 10% in the OT.
Side note: Barnes should have continued on to De 14:25-26 where it is said that the money carried through distant travels vice bringing the sacrifice through the journey was then used to buy from the local stock a sacrifice. But nevertheless, see Numbers 18:
In some circumstances the Israelites were directed to "redeem" with "shekels" the offering:
Nu 18:15-16 ESV Everything that opens the womb of all flesh, whether man or beast, which they offer to the LORD, shall be yours. Nevertheless, the firstborn of man you shall redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem. (16) And their redemption price (at a month old you shall redeem them) you shall fix at five shekels in silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
Now all of that being said, for those who are saying tithing and going above and beyond tithing and giving alms is in the NT era a matter of the heart and should be done with a cheerful heart or not at all are also speaking a portion of the truth of scripture:
2Co 9:7 Each one must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
And for those who are saying that "giving in order to get" is an inappropriate heart attitude are also speaking a portion of the truth:
Lk 14:12-14 And He also said to him who invited Him, When you make a dinner or a supper, do not call your friends or your brothers, or your kinsmen, or your rich neighbors; lest they also invite you again, and a recompense be made to you. (13) But when you make a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, (14) and you shall be blessed, for they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.
... being "blessed" is not the same as "giving in order to get".
... being "repaid" at the resurrection is not the same as "giving in order to get".
Blessings to all ....
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:25:49 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 597
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
The commentaries I've read indicate Jesus does not condemn tithing here (I don't see Him making it a "law" either, He just says you should be doing it, much like when He says "Bless those who persecute you" ... which isn't a "law" either but obviously it is something we should be doing):
In the same passage Jesus also said to obey what the pharisees tell you to do.
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do
Of course Jesus doesn't condemn tithing; they were still under the Mosaic law. Matthew 23 is not trying to usher tithing into the new covenant. If anything it shows that tithing is an aspect of the law(Moses' seat).
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:46:02 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Of course Jesus doesn't condemn tithing; they were still under the Mosaic law. Matthew 23 is not trying to usher tithing into the new covenant. If anything it shows that tithing is an aspect of the law(Moses' seat).
What are you saying exactly, that since we're no longer under Law that we are free to commit adultery, to lie, steal, murder that Jesus died so that we may become lawless?
Or does that, perhaps, mean that we no longer keep Law for salvation but that we live it as a witness that we are citizens of the Kingdom of God who gave them to illumine the lawless?
Or something else?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:40:39 AM
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P31W
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quote:
The teaching of new T believers to the OT law of tithing is akin to telling NT believers to be circumcised.
The NT strikes this down. Not true with tithing.
quote:
James says if you break one of these commandments, you break the whole law. So if you wanna keep the law of tithing, then you have to be circumcised and the lot.
Also contained in the law was "though shalt not murder", when one has examined a person with a skin infection they are to wash using "running water", removing waste from a camp site and burying. I teach these things as well. As do many of our missionaries.
quote:
The law of tithes was made for Israel for the purpose of upkeeping the temple priesthood. It was made up of foodstuff there were feasts to celebrate the tithes. The total tithe was not 10%. Itb was more like 25 to 30% in Total.
I believe it's 23.3% over a six year period. Some of the tithe was used for feast but certainly not all of it.
quote:
This was the Lord speaking to the priest who were stealing the portions!
This is false. The first part of Malachi is God speaking to the Priest then he turns his attention to the entire group.
quote:
Is your preist/pastor telling you this?
My pastor is better educated than you are. Do you not think I am capable of reading God's word and having the Holy Spirit teach me the deeper spiritural means of scripture and teach me as well what slaps me in the face? Do you believe some of us have college educations and have degrees in various biblical studies?
Do you think we are ignorant of God's word and His ways and we NEED a priest or prophet to teach us. ROFL Give me a break.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/12/2008 11:56:53 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:48:08 AM
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P31W
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quote:
2Co 9:7 Each one must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
So if you cannot be a cheerful giver you get to "keep the money"?
Would that not help the greedy person or person lacking faith remain in their sin but be able to call it "good"?
Also isn't that passage concerning giving to those "outide the community" to strangers? People you don't even know and probably will never know?
What about the command to care for the widows indeed in your own congregation? If you cannot give the money cheerfully do you get to just let them starve to death?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:49:50 AM
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P31W
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Of course Jesus doesn't condemn tithing; they were still under the Mosaic law. Matthew 23 is not trying to usher tithing into the new covenant. If anything it shows that tithing is an aspect of the law(Moses' seat).
So was mercy and justice. I guess we can forget that as well under the NC.
Also the Pharasees were never mention in the Old Testament. This group was not part of the OT law and they had no right to tell men anything.
quote:
they were still under the Mosaic law
Were they still under the law when Jesus sent them out to witness and told them not to worry about what they ate. They were free to violate the dietary laws?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:51:31 AM
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P31W
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quote:
lawless?
There have always been groups of people who claim to be both Christian and lawless.
Christanity is not lawlessness. If anything we have the power to obey the law the way God intended it to be obeyed.
Christ did not come to do away with the law. He came to fufill it's requirements so that we are no longer under the "curse" of the law. The curse of the law is death.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:21:17 PM
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jbbaab44
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Jesus didn't condemn tithing just like he never condemned circumcision. I don't even recall him condemning any other Mosaic law for that matter. Do you?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:24:53 PM
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jbbaab44
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goodness, gracious . . . all i say is that the tithe is under the fulfilled Mosaic law, and i get painted as someone who throws out the whole bible.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:28:23 PM
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jbbaab44
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It is ridiculous it is to say that the tithe is an eternal principle such as justice, mercy, and faith. All three of those are eternal characteristics of God. How is 10% giving expressed anywhere in God's character?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:35:10 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
It is ridiculous it is to say that the tithe is an eternal principle such as justice, mercy, and faith. All three of those are eternal characteristics of God. How is 10% giving expressed anywhere in God's character?
Uhm... why that'd be GRACE.
Is Grace a ridiculous principle?
huh?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:40:54 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
2Co 9:7 Each one must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
So if you cannot be a cheerful giver you get to "keep the money"?
keep the money or give the money, you still have eternal consequences for your attitude. Do you think God measures his justice based on an earthly scale that uses weights and measurements? He measures us by an eternal measurements. Giving him money with a bad attitude doesn't make God a little pleased. Would you be happy if someone gave you stinkin rotten filthy trash? Why would God be happy with the tithe that stinks with your attitude? You need to give, and you need to have a good attitude. One without the other is displeasing to God.
faith without actions is dead. actions without love is dead also.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:42:19 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Oh, you mean God owes you your job and paycheck, that you created your own intellect and forged your own abilities to earn a living and there's not any possibility at all that you could lose everything in your possession in the blink of an eye with something as small as a tiny loose blood clot to the brain?
If so,, then you are exempt from any need of Grace.
I don't get what you are trying to say.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:47:15 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
...if someone gave you stinkin rotten filthy trash? Why would God be happy with the tithe that stinks with your attitude? You need to give, and you need to have a good attitude. One without the other is displeasing to God....
Jesus gave us the answer by asking another question: Which son does the will of the father, the one that says he won't but does or the one that says he will but doesn't?
God loves a cheeful giver but He also honors an obedient giver as well. Nowhere in scripture is one's mood a factor in acceptance. But obedience is never optional.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 12:54:31 PM
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jbbaab44
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You mean as long as i say the words that go along with accepting Jesus as my saviour, then it doesn't matter if i really mean it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 2:15:59 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
You mean as long as i say the words that go along with accepting Jesus as my saviour, then it doesn't matter if i really mean it.
Are you still confused as to the difference between obeying and attitude? (Note that I was quoting Jesus in context of the point I was trying to make, not some notion I came up with on the spur of the moment.)
Ever been summoned for jury duty? I'll venture to say that nobody in the whole judicial system would look favorably on you if you only show up if you're delighted to go and serve.
Ever been married? I'm certain that your wife would not approve if you only came home or paid the bills when you feel like you did when she accepted your proposal of marriage.
A delighted, cheerful, excited mood makes you nice to have around, but in eternal significance, your emotional state has no bearing on your relationship with God. (You might want to write that down so you'll remeber it.)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 2:35:09 PM
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jbbaab44
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You are just arguing with me based on a polar extreme of what i'm trying to say. I never said that a cheerful heart was the only important thing. If you want obedience, then sacrificial giving and a good attitude are inseparable. A big gift to God with a rotten attitude is just a rotten gift. A meager gift to God with a good attitude is just a slap in the face to God.
There's no point in debating with me if you haven't taken the time to read what i write.
quote:
You need to give(sacrificially), and you need to have a good attitude. One without the other is displeasing to God.
faith without actions is dead. actions without love is dead also.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 2:41:10 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
You are just arguing with me based on a polar extreme of what i'm trying to say. I never said that a cheerful heart was the only important thing. If you want obedience, then sacrificial giving and a good attitude are inseparable. A big gift to God with a rotten attitude is just a rotten gift. A meager gift to God with a good attitude is just a slap in the face to God.
There's no point in debating with me if you haven't taken the time to read what i write.
quote:
You need to give(sacrificially), and you need to have a good attitude. One without the other is displeasing to God.
faith without actions is dead. actions without love is dead also.
I'm not talking rotten attitude, although that was less important to Jesus than it seems to be with you (telling God "NO!" is fairly rotten, IMO). I'm saying that God will not reject a gift because the giver is not cheerful, which the scripture doesn't say.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 3:27:43 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
telling God "NO!" is fairly rotten, IMO
Yeah! that's why i said faith without works is dead. Your faith and works are inseparable. Obviously telling God "NO" is a root of your heart. Out of your heart comes your actions. How much more clearer can i be? You are debating me in things that i agree with, and have not opposed you in.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 3:36:04 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
telling God "NO!" is fairly rotten, IMO
Yeah! that's why i said faith without works is dead. Your faith and works are inseparable. Obviously telling God "NO" is a root of your heart. Out of your heart comes your actions. How much more clearer can i be? You are debating me in things that i agree with, and have not opposed you in.
We got onto this with a statement about attitude. I pointed out that Jesus said that obedience is doing the will of the Father even with a stinky attitude as opposed to being cheerf but disobedient.
Attitude is not what's ultimately important.
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