RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (Full Version)

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DaveW -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 6:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

Biblical counseling comes from someone who has good understanding of the Bible and a relationship with the Lord.
Definately. And there are several models of true biblical counseling that have their own certification boards. Our Senior Pastor is a trainer in Nouthetic counseling with those who graduate being nationally certified.

There are also counseling styles like Elijah House and Theophostic that rely heavily on the charismatic gifts of word of knowledge and discernment. These have absolutely no counterpart in secular counseling.



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 8:00:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evolved

How much education does a pastor really need?

He needs to be gifted, called and taught by the Holy Spirit. It's a God thing, not a school thing.


I have never endorsed sending your money to a religous quack for a fake diploma of some sort. Don't say I have. I have stated that ACCREDITED Bible schools, Christian colleges and Universities all have distance learning available. Not some mail order goofus diploma.


Ignorance begets ignorance. That's why you have nut cases like Todd Bentley down in Florida fleecing people.

Would you let someone who called themselves a surgeon, but never went to medical school operate on you? of course not. Is leading people in spiritual growth and teaching the Word of God not as important?

Education is not the only thing. The person must be a Christian with the gifts and graces of pastoral care being obvious in their life. However, to blow off education as not being important is reckless and dangerous.


I could not find any background on Todd Bentley as to education yet it seems he is not so ignorant if he is deceiving many. As to your reference to the surgeon I can only say this;

I received a course through the mail from a man who is a Doctor of Theology and as I read through the matterial I found he was calling Elohim a name for God when it is not a name but is a title for it is a Hebrew word which is also translated as gods and judges elsewhere in the Bible. BTW I sent the books back to him with an explanation. And this is a person who supposedly studied Hewbrew and Greek.

So if you wish to have people educated in college or seminary with doctrine such as this coming from Dr.s I will stick with Pastors who whether educated or not at least know the difference between a name and title. I would go with one who has preached the true word of the Bible and whom I have seen fruit of the Spirit in someone who worked under a pastor for a time and learned from experience in counceling and proclaiming truth.



jn1010lf -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/4/2008 10:46:38 AM)

Hello Robert_G

I don't know as educational levels for Pastors is that critical. It depends on the nature of it, really. Consider this scripture in Acts:

"The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

Did you get that last sentence? "They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

I would consider this to be the very first step in a Pastor's education. He can have all kinds of degrees but unless he's been with and continues in Jesus, he's worthless as a Pastor. Radical? Fundamentalist? Call it what you want but I've seen both. Personally, I'll take the one that's been with Jesus and ordained by Him to Pastor. It's fine with me if he has a Ph.D., as long as he has Jesus 101.



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/4/2008 6:54:55 PM)

quote:

I would consider this to be the very first step in a Pastor's education. He can have all kinds of degrees but unless he's been with and continues in Jesus, he's worthless as a Pastor.


We agree.

I'd furthermore suggest that the best-case scenario is for a man to prove himself as a husband and father before he's entrusted with spiritual leadership in the church. Let's watch his life for 20 years or so, and see how his kids turn out. The world is full of great things to do for the glory of God, full of opportunities to serve, while the pastor wanna bee waits for recognition inside the church. 20 years would also provide him with time to read, take evening classes in the Biblical languages, and gain real-world experience.

That's the ideal, theoretical situation, IMHO.



Liveloved -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/4/2008 7:16:14 PM)

quote:

I don't know as educational levels for Pastors is that critical. It depends on the nature of it, really. Consider this scripture in Acts:

"The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

Did you get that last sentence? "They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

Amen and amen. This is what is soooooooooooooooo lacking in today's church. There are many who have degrees. There are few who have been and are with Jesus.

It seems that degrees beget pride. Jesus brings humility. Yes, and that is such a difference as far as leading a church.

Thank you for making this so clear so others can possibly hear.[:)]
I would consider this to be the very first step in a Pastor's education. He can have all kinds of degrees but unless he's been with and continues in Jesus, he's worthless as a Pastor. Radical? Fundamentalist? Call it what you want but I've seen both. Personally, I'll take the one that's been with Jesus and ordained by Him to Pastor. It's fine with me if he has a Ph.D., as long as he has Jesus 101.



bzirk -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/4/2008 8:05:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jn1010lf

Hello Robert_G

I don't know as educational levels for Pastors is that critical. It depends on the nature of it, really. Consider this scripture in Acts:

"The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

Did you get that last sentence? "They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus."

I would consider this to be the very first step in a Pastor's education. He can have all kinds of degrees but unless he's been with and continues in Jesus, he's worthless as a Pastor. Radical? Fundamentalist? Call it what you want but I've seen both. Personally, I'll take the one that's been with Jesus and ordained by Him to Pastor. It's fine with me if he has a Ph.D., as long as he has Jesus 101.


Excellent post.



ChristopherJ -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/4/2008 10:12:33 PM)

Robert,
Thanks for your question - a great one to consider for sure! As a pastor who has been involved in full time ministry for about 15 years, I am a strong believer in the need for pastor's to get as much education as possible. I would strongly encourage anyone wanting to go into full time ministry - especially teaching and preaching - to have at least four years of Bible College. And here's why. It's not about the diploma to put on the wall, but rather because of the importance of laying a strong foundation in knowledge of the Bible before beginnning to teach and preach. I have heard of - and seen firsthand - too many preachers who got into the ministry without going to Bible College, and because of charisma were skyrocketed to great success in the ministry, but so often got off into preaching error because they didn't first lay that foundation in God's Word in their lives. On top of that, a good Bible College will also give the pastor many practical tools like counselling, adminstration, leadership development, homeletics, hermeneutics, etc.

Having said that, I also realize that there are many people who graduate from Bible College with a degree who are not qualified for ministry. A pastor/preacher/teacher cannot neglect their personal relationship with Jesus, and the spiritual disciplines of personal Bible study, prayer, worship, holiness, etc. So - A Bible College education is the foundation and the starting place for a successful ministry. But you must balance that with a fresh and vibrant relationship with the Holy Spirit!



Robert_G -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/7/2008 1:00:18 PM)

Some excellent replies here.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

We hired 1 of the youth pasters. She will be responsible for kindergarden through grade 9. She is almost done her degree, but on the other hand she is 25 and has 10 years straight working at the Christian Camp as a Christian councilor during the summer. People who know her have said she has a heart for God and that the children love her. I heard her testemony on Sunday, and wouldn't disagree at all.

When listening to the responses from the congregation, it was clear that her education (though important), was definetly not on the minds of everyone. Her testamony and her ministry to children/youth is what everyone focused on.

We have 2 candidates for the (grade 7-college/career) group.
I know God will bring us someone who can minister well to that group as well.



Teaching_The_Way -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/21/2008 6:51:24 PM)

Let me ask you a question about that. :) How much bible education did the 12 disciples, Paul, Moses, Daniel etc have? How about NONE! Jesus did spend 3 years teaching the 12 disciples though.

If we are led and called by the Holy Spirit Gods words does opens up to us, and we gain wisdom and understanding as well with knowledge.

But as Spiritual Leaders we should always study and meditate on Gods words, if we really do want to understand about what God is talking about in his words. We must ignore mans words, but embrace Gods words!

God Bless



LBolt -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/21/2008 7:31:58 PM)

First of all, the question is are the called of God to shepherd God people? With the call comes the equipment necessary to fulfill the call. You can't get that at a university. I put very little stock in a degree. Is the hand of God on your life? Do you love Him and love His people second? Do you love sinners. Do you walk a walk worthy of the vocation you've been called to?

You may have to fast and pray and ask God who do you want to shepherd this particular fold? Remember David by man's standards (i.e his father and Samuel) did not qualify at first but God, who test and tries the hearts of man, knew he was the perfect choice. I would commit this to prayer and designate a period to fast in order to discern the will of the Lord.



Just_Kev -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/21/2008 7:48:53 PM)

Thought; How much education did the disciples have? They really didn't even have a Bible to get biblically"well versed" with.

It s so hard to say how much education one should have. I think more important is WHERE the education was processed. One can recieve an biblical education from The Temple of Set,

http://www.xeper.org/pub/xp_main.htm

but I would dare say that the education provided there is not one that would be beneficial to ANYONE!

Even the most educated pastors -by societies standards- don't even have it all right.

I have heard some even preach that the book of Jonah is a simple parable. Educated? I would say not so much.



FaithFirstFitness -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/25/2008 4:50:25 PM)

Life experience may run right alongside as just as important, if not more important, than education. There are some pastors that go straight from high school to college to seminary to a church. Some tend to think they're VERY qualified, but they are missing life experience. Tread lightly with these motivated pastors. On the other hand, there are pastors with a lot of life experience without any formal education. Great ministers, but I believe they tend to miss some of the details you learn in seminary.

Bottom line for me: if you're going to hire a pastor make sure he is motivated to be a lifelong learner. With education or without a pastor needs to be consistently educating himself formally or informally. If not, he will be teaching/preaching/leading from a dry well.



Dougeb -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/30/2008 8:38:22 AM)

I truly believe it is GOD who calls us out to ministry did the diciples go to college? according to the word the Holy spirit is our teacher, paul said to tim. dont let them dispice your youth he was taght by his mom and grand mom. even Jesus did not teach ,preach, heal, cast out demons, give prophcey, till HE was filled with the Holy spirit. the word cleary says it is a good thing to desire the office of a bishop. we must be sober in charge of our house hold and not prone to anger and be filled with Holy Spirit. for even table waiters/decons had to be filled with the Spirit. schooling cant hurt if being taught by Spirt filled men and women of God. but somtimes we can get caught up in denominatinal doctrines of man.i have no schooling and come to this conclusion through the word. amen be blessed.



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 3:21:24 AM)

quote:

Bottom line for me: if you're going to hire a pastor make sure he is motivated to be a lifelong learner. With education or without a pastor needs to be consistently educating himself formally or informally. If not, he will be teaching/preaching/leading from a dry well


You may have inadvertently revealed one reason why powerful church members prefer to hire either newly minted preacher boys, or winsome, charismatic ignoramuses. Both are easier to "manage" than a mature man of God with convictions, wisdom, and independent means. A hireling knows which side his bread is buttered on, and can be counted on to not "rock the boat."

For an example of where this leads, consider the Southern Baptist Convention's craven cave-in to the California challenge. The SBC is cool with K-12 celebration of the glories of sodomy. Not even that is reason enough to call for parents to get their kids out of public schools. A resolution to do just that never even made it out of committee.

The Baptists have something more important to protect than the children of their members -- perhaps the salaries of their preachers?



Gdsgrace -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 12:26:31 PM)

I agree with you a heart for God does come first and education second. If you are callede of God I believe he will supply all you need to do the job.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 1:20:21 PM)

Even though Peter, James and John may have been "uneducated" men, they had the greater part of three years of intense on-hands experience with Jesus, Himself. That would out rank almost every Bible college, seminary and institution of higher learning no matter what.

Although a person with passion and a degree of leadership and ability to articulate in a coherent manner, it is still very important that they have enough knowledge to speak correctly and discern the truths of God's Word. Otherwise, they can easily get caught into false doctrines without realizing or intending to do so.

I'm all for doing what I can to spend that intimate time with Jesus so that I can become more like Him.



hjemerson -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 1:33:47 PM)

Sad to say Baptist pastor are not the highest pastors around and that I pray the parent do not take the christian children out of school ,( we need Chiristain Parent to be a role modle for other in the system)Then the school will all be on a road to Hell . I do Belive a Man called of God Will seek his will and Education will be in it Jesus when to the temple for teaching(school) for a time before he stared and in turn taught others.



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 6:16:05 PM)

quote:

I pray the parent do not take the christian children out of school ,( we need Chiristain Parent to be a role modle for other in the system)


I tend to agree with consistent Reformed pastors and scholars that people with kids in public school are too ignorant to be entrusted with the care of souls. It makes sense to me -- if the truth matters so little to me that I'm happy to have my kids raised in a pack of lies, how can I be a credible witness to the truth of the gospel?

A powerful spiritual leader of the 1980s, the Ayatollah Komheni, would agree with your perspective on the proper use of children. He'd bless 7 and 8 year old boys, give them plastic martyr's medals (made in Taiwan), and send these children out into the battlefield to confront adults with weapons, and serve as human mine sweepers.

Now you may embrace the Ayatollah's conviction that children belong in grownup battles -- but the Lord we both honor pronounced terrible consequences for those who make "these little ones" stumble. The numbers are in. Most evangelical kids who attend public school (upwards of 90%) quit walking with God soon after graduating from high school. More than 90% of the children who were, by contrast, raised "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" stayed on track, and plan to raise their own kids in Christianity, rather than in politicized unitarianism (secular humanism -- the state church of the USA).

A man who has raised his own children well -- and continues to educate himself -- has several basic components for an effective ministry.



Dougeb -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 10:09:34 PM)

wel i think GODS word is true and it says raise a child in the way He should go and he will not depart. so i stand on GODs word not any mans stats. so i as a parent am teaching my children. the WORD say we must be in this world just not a part of it my children are a witness out there. as i am in my work. to him who is able to keep me from falling !!!!!! be GLORY HONOR AND PRAISE. my faith is in Christ. HE is our comforter, our teacher, and i instill these things in my children greater is He who is in them than He who is in the {world} . with God all things are posible. it is all though rev. saying to him who over comes. ispeak life over my children they ARE!!!!! over comers.proverbs 3:5-6 trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him and He will direct your path. as long GOD is directing it can be in any school system.



Dougeb -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 11:22:09 PM)

who else can witness , do we ignore all the children in schools in our country. are we that selfish,david was a boy when he killed a giant !!!!!! what about the prophet jerimiah how old was he? do we have a form of godliness and cant trust GOD . instill this kind of teaching in our children then they are not stats. of some {mans} study. joseph was aboy when God started giving him dreams also. have faith that the HOLY SPIRT is doing just what He said He would do be our teacher. faith have we become a people of o ye with little faith???



Dougeb -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/2/2008 11:33:18 PM)

so to finish how much teaching does a pastor need? as much as he will recieve for we must have a teachable hear is the key word SPIRIT! thats why we need to study and hear from the HOLY SPIRIT. and other SPIrIT led men and women of GOD. so be blessed all dougeb.



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/3/2008 8:31:19 AM)

No one has said that a pastor should not listen to the Holy Spirit, be called of God, etc.

And having an education does not erase either of those things from someones life[8|].

However, an education is a foundation that should be required for the pastor to build his life learning on. Ignorance in the pulpit causes splits, doctrinal error, and cult like behavior.



GroupW -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/3/2008 11:05:38 AM)

I don't think I've opined here yet, which is odd for me since I opine on about everything else....

I truly value a seminary education. I think there are things you learn there at are incredibly valuable - church history, theology, greek/hebrew (the biggest one), study methodologies, leadership skills.....

That said, a very bright individual who's willing to put his back into it (like Armydude) can be effective without it. I would prefer a seminary education, but I don't think I would rule out someone who was very gifted but didn't have it.

I think without the seminary education, it's going to take a lot more work & study to get sermons put together. I think one would have to spend money on some good resources such as one would have had to purchase in seminary for class.

Example: my wife and I are writing a curriculum on what the bible teaches about women in leadership roles in the church. It would have been a whole lot easier if one or the other of us had actually been to seminary (my wife just started her M.Div last year). Teaching yourself Koine greek is no easy task, but a solid understanding of it is crucial to an accurate interpretation of some of the sticky passages in the bible.

To me, a senior pastor needs good ancient language skills, a solid understanding of history, and a broad background in theology. How you get there is up to you. You can get there by studying on your own, but I think a good seminary is a very thorough and worthwhile means to that end. It would be my preference.

That said, everyone needs to be considered on a case by case basis. There is no simple rule that you can follow here.



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/3/2008 12:58:19 PM)

Good post, Groupw.

I have taken college level courses in Old Testament, New Testament, Christian thought, philosophy, eschatology etc., and use lexicons and other material available for my use teaching Sunday School and small groups, but still fill very inadequate because I don't KNOW the original languages.

What I have painstakingly learned, particularly with Greek is that English translations don't do the language justice. One word in Greek may take a sentence in English to translate.

I think this is why so many things are taught incorrectly in some circles.
I want my spiritual leader to be prepared as possible. As I already posted, home study and distance learning is available from many institutions, which may be easier for the person called to ministry later in life.

By the way, I am sure Armydude takes his education seriously, as he is in college now. Perhaps he will go on for further study at some point.



GroupW -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (7/3/2008 1:44:19 PM)

Amazing how much work goes into doing a good bible study or sermon, isn't it. Sure gave me a new respect for those that have to do this on a weekly basis.

Totally agree with you on the original languages. Most of the time, looking at the original doesn't change the meaning - it just adds tremendous color and texture to what was there in the English. Occasionally, though, you run into a part that actually CAN change the traditional meaning. As you note, that's when it can get dangerous for a teacher without the skills, tools, or inclination to dig.

If you layer in the original language on top of some of the local history and philosophy such that you understand how the original writers and readers would have looked at the text, the combination of the two is extremely powerful.

I'm sure the 'Dude takes his education seriously - everything I've read that he's posted tells me he takes his calling very seriously. That, and he's a cool guy.



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