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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 11:06:34 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
He answered Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your strength and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself". "You have answered correctly", Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live".
You only have posted a portion of the story; does it not say the man attempted to justify himself by asking who was is neighbor?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 11:10:37 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Doesn't mean that everyone accepts that way of life. But he died for everyone. Which leaves the ball in our court in how we handle it.
But not all will receive His love. Other than that one has the view of a Universalist.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 11:28:08 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
It's remarkable that there is always one person, that always seems to know more than someone else, and every where this person goes, there is a DEBATE. Just remarkable. No credit ever given to anyone else.
Excuse me, isn't debate the purpose of a message board?
quote:
The wrath of God that abides on him is the person's SIN of disbelief.
1 Pet 2:7 - 8 (ESV) 7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8and“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
But to a person until they breathe their last breath he is a Father with his arms wide open for anyone to come.
Heb 3:12 - 19 (ESV) 12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15As it is said, £“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/18/2008 9:38:23 AM
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facedown
Posts: 829
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
According to scripture, the only prayer that the lost can be assured that God here's is the one that begs mercy by grace through faith (it is the gift of God). may WANT the parable of the prodigal son to apply to others, but it only applies to the redeemed.
not so certain about either claim jimbo.
but lets focus on the second one for a minute:
to do so, we need to begin earlier in luke, just prior -
mustard seed, a narrow door, and then jesus tells a parable about a banquet being prepared. everyone who was invited didn't come, so the master sent his servant into the country and brought all he could find, while declaring that none of those who were invited would taste of the feast.
and then a parable of lost sheep.
then a lost coin and a lost son.
a shrewd manager and then a rich man, and lazaraus
while these are all individual stories, you can't simply pull one out and believe it totally unconnected with another. and each one is like a backpack filled up with nuances and references to more ancient writings.
so lets go back to the lost son.
to suggest the story is about the 'redeemed' is to project back into the story language and theories that simply aren't present. the story is about one father and two sons - one who hung around, and the other who left for a distant country. so, we have a son - who in the presence of his father, with all the food and drink and security leaves and heads out. when he asked for his share, he was asking to be removed from his family - he was isolating himself, distancing himself, and then finds himself in lands far away.
reminds me a little of the first two brothers, up to this point.
but the story goes on, but we understand that one son is essentially in exile, while the other is still reaping the benefits of his family. and we see from his reaction that he had become complacent. though he lived in his fathers house - he didn't know that his fathers love demanded that all - even the unclean - life be celebrated.
because he was dead - and then alive again. whoa - loaded imagry there as well, eh? you see, we understand that, in effect all are dead needing to feast on the bread of life.
because he was lost and now is found. kind of like a lost coin - let there be rejoicing when "one sinner repents".
and who is a "sinner" - who "falls short" - who needs god?
oh wait....everyone - even those who are a part of the family - those who eat and drink at the families house and eat family food - even those who were already invited but have only excuses - even they fall short. shoot, that is one of the primal stories of the old testament.
not to mention there is only one father, in whom we live and move and find our being. we all have one father who created all, and we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another, and our one father is in heaven.
gotta run again.
pax
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-| you are the ones who justify yourselves |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/19/2008 7:04:28 AM
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10SNE1?
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Question for Mcleod ( and anyone else who actually attends Mars Hill)
Does Rob Bell consider himself to be part of the "emerging church" movement? Would you say he is part of the EC movement?
Note to everyone else: No need to post evidence that he is or isn't. I am only interested in the opinions/thoughts of someone who actually attends Bell's church.
Thanks Mcleod. I will most probably just slip back out of this discussion but I have a personal interest in hearing your answer to the questions posted above.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 9:14:36 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
According to scripture, the only prayer that the lost can be assured that God here's is the one that begs mercy by grace through faith (it is the gift of God). may WANT the parable of the prodigal son to apply to others, but it only applies to the redeemed.
not so certain about either claim jimbo.
Then let's just go to the scripture for just one reference to let you know that no every prayer reaches God's ear:
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
-Psalm 66:18
As for your convoluted overreaction to the parable, the son did not, in fact, die nor lose his sonship, only his fellowship with his father. You apparently do not understand Hebrew literary devices to express extreme emotion.
You cannot convolute the parable enough to change that neither son was ever anything but sons.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:06:06 AM
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mcleod
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Gee jimbo need to look to whom James is writing it at. Using the earlier passage in that thought pattern. I think he is talking to the redeemed but what do I know.
quote:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
-James 4:4
So what were they doing to have that type of language written to them?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:13:58 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Gee jimbo need to look to whom James is writing it at. Using the earlier passage in that thought pattern. I think he is talking to the redeemed but what do I know.
quote:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
-James 4:4
So what were they doing to have that type of language written to them?
What's your point, Mc? I was asked for scripture to support the claim that being friends with the world (the lost) is to be at odds with God and I provided it. Wouldn't it be silly to provide scripture written to the lost to not be buds with the lost?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:20:26 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
Question for Mcleod ( and anyone else who actually attends Mars Hill)
Does Rob Bell consider himself to be part of the "emerging church" movement? Would you say he is part of the EC movement?
Note to everyone else: No need to post evidence that he is or isn't. I am only interested in the opinions/thoughts of someone who actually attends Bell's church.
Thanks Mcleod. I will most probably just slip back out of this discussion but I have a personal interest in hearing your answer to the questions posted above.
To your responce; though I haven't been there every Sunday or all the times Rob has taught. I can say honestly only once has it come out of his mouth Emergent . For Mclaren taught one Sunday there and I wasn't present at the time. And Rob after coming back from a long vacation this year. Said it was interesting to hear from the teaching of Mclaren about emergent thoughts.
I have heard and it is just this year the word emergent spoken there. It is basically about we as Christians going out to changing the world for Jesus Christ. To have them come into the Kingdom of God.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:33:48 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Roberta,
quote:
The ECM doesn't promote God as sovereign.
What evidence do you have for that statement?
I could write that about anyone, yet I don't prove it with evidence then I can become a liar.
It's what I've seen first hand.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:38:29 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mds73
It's remarkable that there is always one person, that always seems to know more than someone else, and every where this person goes, there is a DEBATE. Just remarkable. No credit ever given to anyone else.
Hello and welcome to the boards!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:45:50 AM
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mcleod
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So jimbo is all of Israel in heaven or anyone who is Hebrew have a free ticket to Heaven?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:47:24 AM
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mcleod
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Roberta,
quote:
It's what I've seen first hand.
And what have you seen first hand?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:52:20 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Roberta,
quote:
It's what I've seen first hand.
And what have you seen first hand?
Trying to bring God down to our level as though He were common and ordinary. Telling folks that certain verses in the Bible no longer apply today. I've noticed that it tends to be the Scriptures that folks don't like that they claim no longer applies today. Sometimes I wonder if the ECM thinks that the Bible was written in erasable ink!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 11:58:07 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
So jimbo is all of Israel in heaven or anyone who is Hebrew have a free ticket to Heaven?
No, Mc, to say that would be heresy. But that has nothing to do with the passage I wrote on being friends with the world, though.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:25:24 PM
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mcleod
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jimbo,
quote:
No, Mc, to say that would be heresy. But that has nothing to do with the passage I wrote on being friends with the world, though.
Yes you did use that passage out of James. But to say, wasn't James writing to the so-called redeemed( look at what he was writing to) at the time? Or could it be that they become so self centered in themselves. That they forgot as what Christians had to become, or their purpose in life was all about.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:32:21 PM
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mcleod
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Roberta,
quote:
Trying to bring God down to our level as though He were common and ordinary. Telling folks that certain verses in the Bible no longer apply today. I've noticed that it tends to be the Scriptures that folks don't like that they claim no longer applies today. Sometimes I wonder if the ECM thinks that the Bible was written in erasable ink!
I don't know where you get this from. But every verse in the books of the library. can be used to today. For helping us to live out our lives. A gentileman who has been quoted from as being part of this movement. Has just said that this past Sunday.
By the way do you do all of the rules that Paul write in his letters? Remember that he was a rabbi and to the dressing codes he stated, do you apply them to you? Or how you are to run a worship service? Through my years of living on this earth I have only meet one group that worships as he instructed to do in 1 Corinthians 14:26-39
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:33:08 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
jimbo,
quote:
No, Mc, to say that would be heresy. But that has nothing to do with the passage I wrote on being friends with the world, though.
Yes you did use that passage out of James. But to say, wasn't James writing to the so-called redeemed( look at what he was writing to) at the time? Or could it be that they become so self centered in themselves. That they forgot as what Christians had to become, or their purpose in life was all about.
The book of James is written to belivers. The passage I quoted was to remind us that we are at odds with the world for it crucified Jesus. He clearly wrote that being friends with the world was to be against God.
You want to go there, fine. I'm of the opinion that James was very serious about that.
Are you of the opinion that James wrote the opposite of what he meant and the Church was ignorant of that until the ECM crew came along to enlighten it? There are many cults that make a similar claim. Personnaly, I refuse to drink that koolaid.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:43:58 PM
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Roberta_
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Roberta,
quote:
Trying to bring God down to our level as though He were common and ordinary. Telling folks that certain verses in the Bible no longer apply today. I've noticed that it tends to be the Scriptures that folks don't like that they claim no longer applies today. Sometimes I wonder if the ECM thinks that the Bible was written in erasable ink!
I don't know where you get this from. But every verse in the books of the library. can be used to today. For helping us to live out our lives. A gentileman who has been quoted from as being part of this movement. Has just said that this past Sunday.
By the way do you do all of the rules that Paul write in his letters? Remember that he was a rabbi and to the dressing codes he stated, do you apply them to you? Or how you are to run a worship service? Through my years of living on this earth I have only meet one group that worships as he instructed to do in 1 Corinthians 14:26-39
I also don't embrace homosexuality, the dissolution of marriages for the sake of convenience, fornication, drunkenness, etc. The ECM's excuse this behavior in their visitors and long time members. The love the sinner, hate the sin saying has become love the sinner and embrace his sin.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:50:26 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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quote:
Are you of the opinion that James wrote the opposite of what he meant and the Church was ignorant of that until the ECM crew came along to enlighten it? There are many cults that make a similar claim. Personnaly, I refuse to drink that koolaid.
No! You for some odd reason think that the true message lost somewhere. And ecm is taking credit for finding it.
The only problem is that the church and I will say the majority of them lost their mission that God gave them to do. Why are we seeing churchs merging and some even closing their doors? Could it be they have lost their first love? The love of God to whom they are to show to others?
This is why James's half brother came on the scene. Was to teach Israel how they had failed in accomplishing that message. Also to remove our sins from us so that we may have fellowship (peace) with the Father. So that through the Son's act, our faith, and how we live our lives to others, we can become a great aroma to the Father. Instead of the stink, that some of us have become to him.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 12:59:49 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
Why are we seeing churchs merging and some even closing their doors?
I've seen my church triple in size and attendance since I joined about 20 years ago. We didn't have to dumb down the Gospel or make the Christian life to be like a party at Daytona Beach during Spring Break.
You can fill up a building by apealing to the flesh (human ideas and/or making everybody comfy just where and how they are) or by preaching & teaching the unadulterated truth and challenging believers to continually grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit's leadership. The first way does nothing in an eternal sense for anyone.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 1:21:59 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
Are you of the opinion that James wrote the opposite of what he meant and the Church was ignorant of that until the ECM crew came along to enlighten it? There are many cults that make a similar claim. Personally, I refuse to drink that koolaid.
No! You for some odd reason think that the true message lost somewhere. And ecm is taking credit for finding it.
The only problem is that the church and I will say the majority of them lost their mission that God gave them to do. Why are we seeing church's merging and some even closing their doors? Could it be they have lost their first love? The love of God to whom they are to show to others?
This is why James's half brother came on the scene. Was to teach Israel how they had failed in accomplishing that message. Also to remove our sins from us so that we may have fellowship (peace) with the Father. So that through the Son's act, our faith, and how we live our lives to others, we can become a great aroma to the Father. Instead of the stink, that some of us have become to him.
Actually, there is a nice Southern Baptist church in our area that is growing quite well. The building seats 500 and they are getting ready to go to two services because there is standing room only for the services. Not bad for a church that has been around for less than two years.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 1:53:19 PM
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facedown
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From: the urban desert
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jimbo
let me address the end of your post first.
you suggest that the "son did not, in fact die nor lose his sonship, only his fellowship with his father. you apparently do not understand hebrew literary devices to express extreme emotion"
so, lets consider a few "hebrew literary devices"
the passage has the father saying his son was dead - though indeed, he continued to walk the earth. notice in the first book of the bible, the passage has the father saying they will die on the day the partake - yet on that day, they were "dead", but continued to walk the earth.
next, the passage says that the son took his inheritance - and left. this means, back in the day, that he "lost his sonship", not only his "fellowship" - much like when adam and eve, who partook of the fruit, walked away lost everything and died.
indeed, the only way to walk away from anything different is to import convoluted doctrinal interpretation
_____________________________
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/20/2008 1:55:35 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Actually, there is a nice Southern Baptist church in our area that is growing quite well. The building seats 500 and they are getting ready to go to two services because there is standing room only for the services. Not bad for a church that has been around for less than two years.
I am not slamming this church or any other church who population has grown. But my question is how has the church grown? Has it grown by have people leaving one church? (called church hoppers) Or has it reached out into it's community and bringing in the people who are lost in the area? Nothing wrong with church hopping. But to what extinct of the grow of the church has been truly from the lost individuals in the neighborhood. Also and I having a little problem with ours. Starting other churchs for those who live in other neighborhoods.
But I guess that where Rick Warren and his ideals for House Churchs comes into play.
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