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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 12:35:09 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 12:37:31 PM
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sue244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
I know that but you have been on here advocating the very thing that the Jesus Seminar advocate.
which is? And lets be clear on something: The jesus seminar has many things very wrong but they have also been right on a number of things. Don't demonize someone on all matters just because you disagree with them in some.
quote:
God Loved us while we were His enemies, so why wouldn't He expect Christians to also love their enemies. We are God's ambassoders on earth to show forth His love. And by the way part of that love is saying things that will be offensive to people. It will be anouncing that if they don't repent and put their fiath in Jesus they will go to hell.
You see? So you will allow love to be something that "says things" to people but be embodied in non-violent resistance? How does that work?
quote:
Well if its not about being passive/aggressive then you should not be advocateing what the Jesus Seminar teaches about turning the other cheek and what not. What they teach is very passive agrressive.
Did you read what I wrote on Matt. 5? That is not a "jesus seminar" teaching although they may agree with is. What do you think it means to turn the other cheek? Was Jesus teaching us to be door mats? Does his teaching have no value for those that are oppressed?
I did read it and what other people responded and I don't agree with your argument or your sorce. As this tread is about what the Emergent church thinks not what me and my fundemental beliefes are I will not be lead through your socratic method to the extreem position you would inevadably place me in.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 12:41:48 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 12:49:49 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
I did read it and what other people responded and I don't agree with your argument or your sorce.
What source? Why don't you agree? I don't mind if you don't agree but I am curious on what grounds you disagree? Is it just because it is me writing it? Or is there some deeper reason?
quote:
As this tread is about what the Emergent church thinks not what me and my fundemental beliefes are I will not be lead through your socratic method to the extreem position you would inevadably place me in.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I find it odd that no one wants to positively contribute to a discussion but is more than ready to say they disagree vehemently and even go so far as villifying the people they disagree with.
I disagree with the fundemetal idea that Jesus was teaching polictical oppostition to the Romans and that it all comes down to makeing earth better. Jesus clearly told Pilate that His Kingdom is not on earth. And yet you make it out that Jesus we contradicting Himself by teaching peeople to resist the Romans though Passive Aggressive tendencies.
Your sorce, Jesus Seminar and the version you quote from.
I have seen people contribute to the discussion they just are not always letting you take the lead with your socratic method. (by the way I'm not saying that the socratic method is always bad, in fact thats how I teach in classes but this is not a class room setting and people can resent being treated like students in this arena)
I have not seen any villifying going on except for the occasional jabs about comparing people to the Jesus Seminar when they dont' buy their interpertation but I've already pointed out the irony of that.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 1:18:26 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 1:56:11 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Emerging,
No, not all truth is from God.
Mushhead, so if i understand you correctly, you are arguing that truth can come from something other than God? Truth can come from Satan?
I am arguing for an accurate definition of truth and an accurate interpretation of Jesus' teaching that God is truth.
quote:
quote:
Jesus does say God is truth, but that is far different than saying all truth is from God. Let's look at it a different way. On school nights my children had a set bedtime. That is true. Is their bedtime a truth from God? Is Jesus' revelation intended to lead us to the conclusion that their bedtime must be a truth from God? Your interpretation is fraught with difficulties.
Truth, in the context I am using it (and how it is seen in scripture) is about reality. When we say truth we are talking about what is fundamentally true about the world and about God and his creation irrespective of our acknowledgment. I'm not talking about kid's bedtimes.
Yes, truth is about reality. It is defined as fidelity to an original. God is the ultimate original - His word, His actions, His nature. False religious systems do not contain truth.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 1:59:05 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushheadYes, truth is about reality. It is defined as fidelity to an original. God is the ultimate original - His word, His actions, His nature. False religious systems do not contain truth.
What if you found one that actually contained the concept of sin?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 2:02:28 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
disagree with the fundemetal idea that Jesus was teaching polictical oppostition to the Romans and that it all comes down to makeing earth better. Jesus clearly told Pilate that His Kingdom is not on earth.
Sue,
What does "my kingdom is not of this world" mean? Is it possible that Jesus means his kingdom does not come about by the same means as the world?
If it is not about earth than why did Jesus declare that ALL authority on heaven AND earth has been given to him? Why does he command us to pray "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven"? Does God not care about the earth?
I couldn't disagree more that Jesus is not talking about earth. That is exactly what he is talking about and he is teaching that his kingdom does not come by means of violence and cohersion and domination (IOW, it is not of this world).
You can disagree that Jesus was teaching non-violent opposition to such forces like Rome but on what basis do you disagree? What is your interpretation of Matt 5:38ff? What did Jesus mean by turning the other cheek if your right cheek has been struck?
quote:
Your sorce, Jesus Seminar and the version you quote from.
lol. I quoted one verse from this version and all of a sudden you equate everything I say to that source. I have shown ample reason for why their rendering of this particular verse is spot on. All you have done to show otherwise is to insist that you "disagree" and then refuse to show an alternative way to read that passage. Why?
Because this tread is about the Emergent Church not multiple views of turning the other cheek. If you want to discuss that without getting this tread off topic I would suggest starting another tread.
As far as the Kingdom we view it from fundementally opposites sides. You seem to be attached to the earthly and the physical where as I see it as higher and spiritual. The lense we look at the Bible through is obviously different. I see the earth as a termporal, basically insignificant thing when compared to Eternity in heaven. Therefore I should do everything in light of heaven, not what will necessary be comfortable on Earth. That means that if I am outcast because of my beliefes, but I am able to be used of God for His purpose then being an outcast is worth it. If I am beat up for my faith but someone who sees this comes to Christ then being beat up is worth it. I don't see a mandate in Scripture to make earth more comfortable for people to go to hell from.
What I see is that my citizenship is in heaven, that I am an ambassidor or Christ, that I am to go out into all the world preaching the Gospel. I am to Press on toward the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ.
I see a promise in the Bible that the world will get worse not better, I see that there will be an Apostacy that I'm to stand against, I see that the world will be destroied in the end and only after that will Christ create a New Heaven and a New Earth that will be perfect.
Because of this fundemental difference we will never agree.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 2:07:40 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
Mushhead -
Do you deny that God's grace is unrestricted?
God offers His grace freely to anyone and everyone (obviously I'm not a Five Point Calvinist), but that does not mean that experiencing God's "redeeming" grace is unrestricted or unconditional. Do you agree with Selmanovic?
quote:
Is following Jesus all about right doctrine? I would argue that it is not.
Doctrine is an essential componant of following Jesus. We do what we believe. What we believe is our doctrine. Is it possible to follow Jesus and not believe anything He said about Himself?
quote:
If being a Christian is all about checking "yes" to the right "doctrines" than which doctrines do you declare are essential to checking off before one can be considered a follower of Jesus?
Do you think Jesus had anything to say about this?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 2:28:31 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
The Bible does teach us how to show love to our enemies, but not for the purpose of protesting their behavior.
Really?
Did you not read what I posted a few days back about Matt. 5? Jesus' teachings about turning the other cheek, giving your coat, and walking the extra mile are prime examples of non-violent protest against a dominating regime.
What is the point of loving our enemies and praying for them if it is not for the purpose of pointing out the evil that exists and creating space for repentance? Are you suggesting we just love our enemies because it is a "nice" thing to do? What is the point?
When God loved us so much that he died for us what is his love doing if it is not in some sense protesting against the evil that has us tragically bound?
emerging,
let me tell you a quick story.
Many years ago I was a chaplain in a truck stop ministry. One morning I preached a message on Romans 1:18-34. Attending that morning was a driver from Greece. Sometimes we met drivers from other countries who came here to drive for part of the year and who then went home and lived off their savings for the rest of the year. I don't remember anything I said in that sermon, all I remember is what that driver said to me afterwards. In very broken English, he talked about symptoms and diseases. He said the problem in America isn't all the things listed in the Romans passage, i.e. homosexuality (I might have mentioned homosexuality, but I'm sure it was only in passing), broken families, and such; these are only symptoms of a disease. The disease is identified in the passage as well; it is the rejection of God, sin, corrupt hearts (however you want to describe it). Though I knew this, the way he said it was eye opening - sort of like an epiphany. Praise God!
The moral of the story. Domination systems, oppressive behavior from whoever, wherever, or whatever, or anything else you can cite are nothing more than symptoms of the disease. Jesus did not come to treat the symptoms, He came to fight the disease. If we treat the symptoms we can alleviate some degree of discomfort, but in the end the symptoms will return. If the disease is treated then the symptoms are eradicated. Jesus didn't come to protest dominations systems, He came to eradicate sin. He came to reconcile lost sinners to their Holy God and Creator, to transform the corrupt hearts of sinners so that their desires and behaviors are authentically changed.
Showing love can lead to someone being convicted about their bad behavior and motivations. However, there is a huge difference between loving an individual and protesting a domination system.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 2:38:34 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 2:48:41 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
not destroyed but renewed.
No destroyed.
2 Peter 3:10-13.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
quote:
what does praying "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven" mean to you?
Easy that God's will, will be done on earth. That Jesus will come and establishes His 1000 year reign. That people would become saved and transfer their citenizenship from earth to heaven.
It is not advocating overtrowing this world system. That will not be done until Jesus comes back and establishes His 1000 year reign.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 2:50:45 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
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From: Kearns
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quote:
I think MLK would have been an idiot not to have learned from his example. By the simple fact that he did indeed learn the lessons Ghandi had to teach, he became an extremely successful instrument of social change.
Group,
Two words come to mind at this point: arrogance (you mentioned that one) and insanity (that is, if I remember correctly the old saying, "Insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results").
MLK did succeed in producing change for a group of people. However, as it currently stands, the AA community took one step forward and one step backwards. It can even be argued they took more than one step backward. In any case, MLK's community activism has gone the way of the history of world.
Activists have faught against tyranny throughouth the history of the world. Their methods and motives have varied, but activists have sought deliverance from their oppressors. And here we are. Fundamentally, nothing has changed - humanity is a violent, corrupt, abusive mess. So, yes, we can learn from the likes of Gandhi how to continue trying the same old things to gain different results, or we can abandon that whole project and join Jesus in His mission. Jesus changes individuals. He transfoms hearts. When this happens - when Jesus enters lives - people are changed. Families are healed. Communities are influenced and affected. The victims of bad behavior are reduced. People are equipped to handle adversity. It doesn't sound as grand as community activism, but the change is real, lasting, and influential.
So, if my choice is between arrogance or insanity, I gladly choose arrogance.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 2:54:26 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 3:02:14 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
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From: Colorado
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quote:
So praying thy kingdom come on earth as in heaven is only to pray that one day Jesus return? It has nothing to do with the here and now and our present condition but everything to do with some future eschatological hope? How does something happening "on earth" as it is happening "in heaven" say that the two will not meet until Jesus returns?
What does Jesus mean when he says that the Kingdom of God (Heaven) is "at hand"?
God's will being done on earth as in heaven.
The Kingdom is at Hand just like Jesus is coming soon. Remember its from an eternal perspective where 1000 years is as a day.
quote:
I have read the Left Behind series also. I don't recommend getting your theology from them.
I actually disagree with the very premise of Left Behind so I doubt I would take my theology from them. Just because I happen to be Pre-Mill in my eschatological understanding doesn't mean I buy LaHays version of it all. But that is for another fourm that I don't actually like to get invovled in. I spent to much time in those circles in jr high and high school to want to touch them now.
I get that emergents are amill and would always disagree with the pre-mill position. But again thats for another Froum
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 3:08:16 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
fire and "burning up" in the bible does not been destruction. It means, more accurately, a purging - or judgment. God declared his creatoin "very good." He is not going to abandon it.
peace.
So, God didn't really destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 3:08:17 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 3:10:34 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 5:40:21 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
God's will being done on earth as in heaven.
The Kingdom is at Hand just like Jesus is coming soon. Remember its from an eternal perspective where 1000 years is as a day.
Sue,
When Jesus is among people and says "the Kingdom of God is at hand" is to say the Kingdom of God is here - now. Your spiritualization of all this does great violence, I think, to the very realness of Christ and the fact that God was flesh and blood among us and spoke to real people in real times who had real concerns. No one hearing Jesus say what he said would have thought, "oh right, that means one day he is coming back again." Jesus' audience did not even have a category to place that in other than this: The promised sovereign rule of God is breaking in at this very moment - it is here in the person of Jesus. This is one of the reasons why his first sermon in Luke 4, when he says, "TODAY this scripture is fulfilled" was so volatile (notice, TODAY is not talking about some future second coming or 1000 year reign - the Messianic Rule, the Kingdom of God, is at hand today).
Jesus spoke more about the Kingdom of God than any other topic. To understand this concept rightly is crucial to any proper reading of the New Testament. It is a shame that so many Christians assume Jesus is talking about some other destination or life after death - he most certainly is not.
peace.
They rejected the Messiah just as God knew they would. Everything has to be look at from the context of the whole Bible. The offer was genuine even though God knew what the answer would be and that Jesus would go to the Cross just as planned before the foundations of the world. Its one of those many paradoxes in the Bible that I just except because God is bigger then my mind can comprehend.
The "Kingdom" if you will is everyone that is saved. the only way to have God's kingdom on earth is if everyone is saved which will not happen through social programs, or over throwing the powers that be through passive aggresive resistence. That will only happen in the New Heaven and the New Earth. So instead of me trying to overthrow the govt. or do a lot of social programs, I should be preaching the Gospel to people dispite how much offended by it. You cannot take the offence out of the Gospel without destroying the Gospel.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 6:20:00 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 6:48:08 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
crankius-
I think I have spelled this out elsewhere but if you are asking which particular theory of atonement I adhere to the simplest way of putting it is "all of them." I lean more heavily on the oldest and most widely held theory which is Christos Victor but think the other theories (even the new kid on the block - penal sub theory) have something to teach us. None of them are complete in themselves.
Penal-sub is Biblical, which means its not a theory nor is it the new kid on the block.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 7:01:05 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
fire and "burning up" in the bible does not been destruction. It means, more accurately, a purging - or judgment. God declared his creatoin "very good." He is not going to abandon it.
peace.
So, God didn't really destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?
Maybe, maybe not. Even if he did that does not negate what I said above. The idea that God is going to destroy Creation is very Platonic but not very biblical. The results of such thinking have been disastrous.
I guess this tells us everything we need to know about your approach to the Bible. If we don't know that the Sodom and Gomorrah story is literal then how do we decide what in the Bible is literal? How do we know that anything Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount (citing that sermon since you rely so heavily upon it for your beliefs) was literal and not just the invention of later writers? Unfortunately (and I don't mean this to come across as insulting - I am just stating a fact), debating you will accomplish nothing because we don't share the same authority for doctrine construction.
As for platonic. Again, I could demonstrate how thoroughly ridiculous that statement is, but you would just dismiss it and (I assume the sources for much of what you say here are your professors) blindly regurgitate your professors garbage without hinting that you're aware of how utterly uninformed it makes you appear (like you did with the whole church fathers in complete agreement on pacifism issue we previously debated). Let me reiterate that I don't say that to insult you. I am only saying this because if you are going to invest seven years in theological education then you should at least be somewhere that intellectual honesty and critical thinking is required...even if the professors disagree with your conclusions.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 9/24/2008 7:17:26 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 7:16:37 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 7:19:25 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
crankius-
I think I have spelled this out elsewhere but if you are asking which particular theory of atonement I adhere to the simplest way of putting it is "all of them." I lean more heavily on the oldest and most widely held theory which is Christos Victor but think the other theories (even the new kid on the block - penal sub theory) have something to teach us. None of them are complete in themselves.
Penal-sub is Biblical, which means its not a theory nor is it the new kid on the block.
you can't really be serious. Is Christos Victor a theory?
It is the new kid on the block. Sorry, but a fact is a fact.
It is a fact that its the new kid on the block...why? Because you say so! Prove it!
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 7:20:40 PM
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