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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 11:02:34 AM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
it's clear from scripture that god did not come for (1) - but for (all).
He came for all. But all will not come to Him.
"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." Luke 17:34
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 1:13:30 PM
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colliefan
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Matt 7:21 - 23 (ESV) 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matt 7:13 - 14 (ESV) 13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy£ that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke 13:22 - 30 (ESV) 22He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25 - 27 (ESV) 25When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
John 3:18 (ESV) 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36 (ESV) 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Mark 16:15 - 16 (ESV) 15And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Luke 8:11 - 12 (ESV) 11£Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
2 Thess 2:9 - 12 (ESV) 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:18 - 25 (ESV) 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
1 Pet 2:7 - 8 (ESV) 7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, £“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”£ 8and £“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Matt 10:32 - 33 (ESV) 32So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
1 John 2:23 - 25 (ESV) 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
We are given free choice to accept of or reject the claims of Christ.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/21/2008 1:23:15 PM >
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 4:18:03 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Do you mean that God has given me, by grace, the gift of salvation but I don't have to accept it? He won't just make me have it since He has given it? Whoa! Radical, dude!
You have got it; one can approach the issue of grace from the point of a Calvinist or an Arminian, it is up to that individual to accept it or reject God's grace.
The point facedown seems to be favoring is that of a universalist which can be supported only by cherry-picking vesres rather than reading the story of God's grace in context. He seems to take veses from Thomas Jefferson's bible.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 11:39:09 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
mushead
how the heck do you know what folks are doing? (in refeence to post 241)? i mean, go back and just read what you've posted (paraphrase): it's okay to be wrong, to not understand, to question...etc - but "THESE" folks are not just wrong, misunderstood, or the like - thus, it's not okay to be wrong, lack understanding, etc.
you're blantent over-statements is over the top, my friend.
facedown,
I didn't say one thing in my description of what emergents are doing that they don't say themselves. To answer your question more directly, I know what they are doing from listening to what they tell us.
As for it not being okay to be wrong: the answer is found in the context of everything I said in that post. In all my years of pastoral ministry I have found there are basically three types of people (who call themselves Christians): 1-teachable; 2-unteachable; 3-false teacher. Group one is populated by people with opinions about certain things. Sometimes they are wrong. However, once they are shown what the Bible says about the subject they change their opinions and believe what God says in His word. Group two are those who are convinced about their beliefs. We've all met people who don't want to be confused by the facts. Finally, group three are those who know what the Bible says, choose not to believe it, seek to find a more suitable way of interpreting the Scripture (a practice called "Scripture twisting"); and then actively teach their false doctrines to anyone that will listen.
Group one is who I was talking about when I wrote that its okay to be wrong. They are actively seeking to submit their lives, doctrines, and practices under the Lordship of Jesus. They are teachable. It okay to be wrong if the person is teachable. Group three is who I was writing about when referring to the practices of the EC's most popular leaders. They know what God says in the Bible; they don't like what God says in the Bible; they construct absurd new interpretations of what God says in the Bible; and they are teaching others their false and heretical teachings about what God says in the Bible. They are false teachers. It is not okay to be wrong if the error is intentional.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/22/2008 12:04:50 AM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/22/2008 12:25:29 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
They know what God says in the Bible; they don't like what God says in the Bible; they construct absurd new interpretations of what God says in the Bible; and they are teaching others their false and heretical teachings about what God says in the Bible. They are false teachers. It is not okay to be wrong if the error is intentional
2 Tim 4:1 - 5 (ESV) 1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound£ teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 4:28:33 AM
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Roberta_
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I'm not sure if I feel that repentance is mandated for Salvation, but I have a problem with repentance not being taught or even encouraged. I have been very disappointed with the lack of teachings on repentance in the ECM.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 7:08:18 AM
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facedown
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codegrazer
yes - grace is grace - it is "unmerited" - and - it is a blessing of/from god.
no, one doesn't "earn their way into heaven" - not by the things they do, say, or think.
one of the oldest, and certainly the longest held understanding of soteriology is a linking of the phrase "heal". and just prior to going here, lets understand that while we were still sinners, christ died for us - as it is written. we were/are unable to do anything about our condition - and we are so often unware of just how bad it is. jesus died, not for "me" or "you" - but for everyone, everywhere - every tribe, nation, and tongue, reconciling all things in heaven and on earth to god. this is reality. and it isn't something we make true by doing or saying the "right-things" - it is true. what we "do" is fall in humility at this grace, and respond from our inmost being. thus, all have been reconciled and all need to be reconciled.
in context of how salvation has been understood for centuries it is this: we have been saved - we are being saved - we will be saved.
so, back to soteriology, which the orthodox church has understood more in a healing process, rather than a legalistic dilemma, or forensic justification, or often used fiscal analogies. the ecumenical councils were more concerned not with putting us juridically right with god, but on the existential healing of all through the person of christ. the cross is ontological rather than forensic in significance.
quote:
He came for all
indeed.
colliefan
great passages, thanks
i think the very first one is the most telling.
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 12:19:47 PM
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Codegrazer
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facedown,
quote:
[Codegrazer said] He came for all...
[facedown reply] indeed.
You left out the actual jist of my point (for a reason?) which was, "He came for all. But all will not come to Him."
WHY did you do that? Was it to make a point that everyone (even atheists and Satan worshipers) are saved too? Please clarify?
What exactly do you think all that scripture colliefan listed in post #252 (above) really means if not that everyone will not come to the Father? And if you don't believe Jesus' Word literally when He said, "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. " what prey tell do you propose Jesus was telling us???
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 2:05:58 PM
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colliefan
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facedown,
Here more verses indicating God's grace can be rejected;
Luke 13:34 - 35 (HCSB) 34“Jerusalem, Jerusalem!
The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her.
How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
but you were not willing!
35See, your house£ is abandoned to you.£ And I tell you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”£
John 1:10 - 13 (HCSB) 10
He was in the world,
and the world was created through Him,
yet the world did not recognize Him.
He came to His own,
and His own people did not receive Him.
But to all who did receive Him,
He gave them the right to be children of God,
to those who believe in His name
who were born,
not of blood,
or of the will of the flesh
or of the will of man,
but of God.
How do you explain these verses and the others that clearly indicate that God's grace can be rejected? The position you seem to be coming from is that of a universalist which cannot be explained from scripture.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/23/2008 2:24:54 PM >
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 2:42:53 PM
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colliefan
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Facedown,
The following from the Westminster Confession Larger Catechism. How do you interpret this in light of your, and the EC-USA's, view of salvation. Doesn't the EC-USA place a high value on tradition? Or, is it only when it complies with its current teachings?
Chapter XXXII:
Of the State of Men After Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
32:1 The bodies of men, after death, return to dust and see corruption (Gen 3:19; Acts 13:36): but their souls (which neither die nor sleep) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them (Eccl 12:7; Luke 23:43). The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies (2 Cor 5:1, 6, 8; Phil 1:23, with Acts 3:21 and Eph 4:10; Heb 12:23):
and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day (Luke 16:23, 24; Acts 1:25; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 6, 7). Besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
32:2 At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed (1 Cor 15:51, 52; 1 Thes 4:17): and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever (Job 19:2, 27; 1 Cor 15:42-44).
32:3 The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His own glorious body (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; 1 Cor 15:42; Phil 3:21).
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 7:45:26 PM
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facedown
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codegrazer
interesting that the one response was "you left out the actual jist of my point...."
interesting, because that little section was a minor part of what you were responding to.
why did i do that? because neither you or i have any clue on who "come(s) to him" - thus the only point is that "he came for all" - and if you noticed in the post you didn't respond to - you'd see very clearly that all need to be saved - all need to be healed - (etc).
what i think about colliefan's scripture passages, is that they are excellent selections from scripture. most telling, is the very first one.
your last sentence would be like me saying..."well, if you don't believe jesus, when he said that he would draw all men unto himself? or, do you not believe the scriptures as it is written that in christ all will be made alive...or that in christ all things on earth or in heaven will be reconciled...or that in christ reconcilliation is made for all men...or that god will be merciful to all...
i mean come on. should i do that, then you'd be like "well, what about these passages that obviously show exclusivism?
all of a sudden, the bible gets torn apart - and not held as sacred at all, but a weapon to attack one another and say "well, you just don't believe the bible!!"
colliefan
read above.
and btw - it's none of my concern if folks can "walk away" or whatever from god - it's my concern to respond, proclaiming the beautiful news, to love mercy, to walk humbly and to do justly - to rend -my- heart; not get into a match about how right i am, and how other folks simply don't get/believe/etc the bible, and how they are going to burn in hell for being so anti-christ.
interesting thing about john 1 there - is to whom it's written. i mean, shouldn't that make us all sit back, and question - not others, but ourselves? and the point of so many gospel passages is how it's those who believe themselves to be in/saved/loved/redeemd/etc by god are not.
in regards to the calvinist document which has never been adopted by the anglican church - i don't give it much thought at all. i mean, if i asked you what your thoughts were on the following prayer: "We pray for all who have died, that they may have a place in eternal kingdom" (1979 Prayer Book) or other similar prayers from any number of prayer books you'd be like "well, that's not my prayer book, so why in the world would you ask such a thing?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 9:37:30 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
...or that in christ reconcilliation is made for all men...or that god will be merciful to all...i mean come on. should i do that, then you'd be like "well, what about these passages that obviously show exclusivism?
all of a sudden, the bible gets torn apart - and not held as sacred at all, but a weapon to attack one another and say "well, you just don't believe the bible!!"
The truth is that salvation is available for all, but there are some who reject God's gift of salvation. This is clear from scripture and it is by no means exculsive. God gives men an simple choice: accept my plan of salvation through Christ's death on the cross or reject me and spend an eternity in hell. It is that simple. You are coming from a standpoint of an universalist which cannot be found in scripture.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 9:56:11 PM
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colliefan
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38) Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; (39) He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; (40) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. (41) At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; (42) And shall give account of their own works. (43) And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. (44) This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
This is from the Athanasian creed and pretty much discounts univeralism.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/23/2008 11:28:23 PM
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Codegrazer
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facedown,
So your belief is what, then? 1) That all men will be saved. 2) Some will be saved but some will not. 3) That we humans on Earth can't really know the answer to this question. 4) Other (please specify).
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/24/2008 8:11:03 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
i'm not sure if "available" is the right word; however....
"god gives men a simple choice"
i'm not sure if that part of your sentence is actually accepted by most folks in this forum.
i've not once argued for universalism - btw.
ah, the good ol' athanasian creed...i could have figured you'd change directions.
another interesting document. used to be most prayer books between 1549-1662 had it in for several occasions a year. and it was until the 19th century, and it began to decline. i'd actually be curious to know just how many prayer books it's printed in today. i really don't know what your point is, as again, i've never argued for universalism. even further, if you believe the creed 100% there's a lot of folks in this forum who will spend eternity in hell based off of that creed. folks who would label themselves christian/evangelical/fundamental/etc. is that what your suggesting? - that they are burning in hell, or that maybe something else is going on?
codegrazer
i have no clue who will be saved and who will not. i mean, wasn't that clear enough in my previous post?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/24/2008 2:57:24 PM
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Codegrazer
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[facedown said] because neither you or i have any clue on who "come(s) to him" - thus the only point is that "he came for all"
If your point is that neither you or I can perfectly know the true heart of any individual man, I agree. Certainly, many people claim to believe Jesus, but they really don't. BUT we CAN know, SHOULD know, NEED TO know, and I do know that God clearly says what He requires of a person to come to Him. How do I know? The God's Holy Word tells me so. He tells all who have ears to hear.
[facedown said] your last sentence would be like me saying..."well, if you don't believe jesus, when he said that he would draw all men unto himself? or, do you not believe the scriptures as it is written that in christ all will be made alive...or that in christ all things on earth or in heaven will be reconciled...or that in christ reconcilliation is made for all men...or that god will be merciful to all... i mean come on. should i do that, then you'd be like "well, what about these passages that obviously show exclusivism?
well, if you don't believe jesus, when he said that he would draw all men unto himself?
I DO believe Jesus when He says this. And He DID draw all men unto Himself, however many chose not to receive or accept His drawing-- it is everyone's free will to choose for themselves.
do you not believe the scriptures as it is written that in christ all will be made alive.
Absolutely! All who are in Christ, but certainly not those who reject Him.
in christ all things on earth or in heaven will be reconciled
All things will be reconciled, again, in Christ. Not through trust in or worship of Satan. Not through trust in or worship of Baal, or any other false god. Not through atheism. Reconciliation will be possible when those who oppose Jesus (and they are legion) are bannished when He returns again.
or that in christ reconcilliation is made for all men
I'm not sure which scripture you refer to here (please provide?) but assuming whatever verse you mean includes the concept of "in Christ" my point would be the same as the above examples.
god will be merciful to all
If you are referring to Romans 11:28-22, the author here is specifically talking about Israel. The term "all men" is referring to all of Israel, God's specially chosen people. Romans Chapter 11 is dedicated solely to discussing the Jewish "nation/people" here, not all men as individuals in the world.
So facedown, what do YOU believe Jesus means when He says that only some will enter through the narrow gate and others take the broad road to destruction? What does that mean to YOU?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/24/2008 4:57:35 PM
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colliefan
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From the Nicene creed
quote:
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end
From the Apostles
quote:
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
From the Altanasian
quote:
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead
quote:
John 3:16 - 21 (ESV) 16“For God so loved the world,£ that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
John 12:44 - 50 (ESV) 44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”
The scripture is clear, we will be judged on our acceptance or denial of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. And there is no other name by which man may be saved.
quote:
Acts 4:12 (ESV) 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/24/2008 5:03:36 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
there's a lot of folks in this forum who will spend eternity in hell based off of that creed. folks who would label themselves christian/evangelical/fundamental/etc. is that what your suggesting? - that they are burning in hell, or that maybe something else is going on?
Based on which phrase in the creed? Descended into hell?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/25/2008 11:26:11 AM
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Codegrazer
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Throughout Christian history, many, many false doctrines have had their beginning in a denial of Jesus as being the only way to the Father. Even in the first churchs during the day of the apostles. Proponents of these heresies argue that scripture is somehow vague, unclear or challengeable regarding this Truth. It often begins with the suggestion that wisdom regarding salvation is hidden in a divine mystery that only God knows, and that no man (lest he be arrogant and hypocritical) can really claim to know for certain. This error is the foundation upon which heresy is built. Beware, brothers and sisters!
Indeed, history demonstrates over and over again that Christian heresy is the most destructive when it preaches a different gospel than what we were first given. God's true believers understand that those who submit to a false Christ, or preach a false gospel, are not true Christians regardless of whether they claim the "title" or not.
Saints, the mystery of salvation has been made known to us through Jesus Christ. It is as clear and knowable today as it was when Jesus first taught it. No "new" revelation or "improved" interpretation of His Holy Word has been given by our Lord since. God has not changed His mind. He is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Only the doctrine of fleshly men changes.
Why is this important? Because to deny, distort or question Jesus' Word regarding salvation is to reject His sovereign authority. It is to reject salvation on His terms. Error leads to more error. Sin leads to more sin. Such has been the enemies strategy even beginning with Adam and Eve. Don't buy into it!
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Genesis 3:1
< Message edited by Codegrazer -- 8/25/2008 12:24:37 PM >
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/25/2008 12:30:59 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
Why is this important? Because to deny, distort or question Jesus' Word regarding salvation is to reject His sovereign authority. It is to reject salvation on His terms. Error leads to more error. Sin leads to more sin. Such has been the enemies strategy even beginning with Adam and Eve. Don't buy into it!
Satan's strategy is to question God and the authority of His word. It began in the garden, he used it in tempting Christ in the wilderness, and continues today. Churches and their seminaries question the authority of His word and say it must be changed to fit the culture.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/26/2008 8:07:35 PM
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facedown
Posts: 907
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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colliefan
in response to post 268
yes - there is "no other name"
of course one has to conceed that god and jesus are not "names"
post 269
maybe yes. maybe other phrases as well.
codegrazer
will try to respond later
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/26/2008 9:47:24 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
of course one has to conceed that god and jesus are not "names"
What kind of word games are you playing? In the Bible, a name has to deal with an aspect of that persons charater. What are you insinuating by your comment?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/26/2008 9:49:00 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
maybe other phrases as well.
What other phrases of the Athanasian Creed to you find disagreement?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/26/2008 11:42:18 PM
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