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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 56
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(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/2/2008 8:00:52 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
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quote:
Who knows and who cares? Jesus never sinned and, because He had the capacity to sin and I have the capacity to sin, I am able not to sin by His grace and power!
Who cares? If my God was capable of sin, I would care. I would care a lot. What's to keep Him from sinning now? If He is still able to really empathize with us as we continue along this walk of life, shouldn't that capacity for sin still be there?
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NO, NO, NO - free will means FREE WILL! Jesus chose not to sin. I choose not to sin, by His grace and power.
Did you ever sin?
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Perhaps we all need a little less rethinking esoteric theology and little more standing on the promise that God can make us able not to sin.
There's nothing esoteric about it. God's perfect sinlessness is hardly "secret knowledge." Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it so.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 9:00:09 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
If my God was capable of sin, I would care. I would care a lot. Personally, I care a whole lot more about Who He is and what He is doing for me rather than what He hypothetically cannot do.
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What's to keep Him from sinning now? The same thing that keeps me from sinning now! I believe it's called Holiness.
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If He is still able to really empathize with us as we continue along this walk of life, shouldn't that capacity for sin still be there? Uh, no, Jesus is glorified presently. Do you think He has forgotten His 33 years of Incarnation?
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Did you ever sin? And what does my forgiven past have to do with my sanctified future?
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There's nothing esoteric about it. God's perfect sinlessness is hardly "secret knowledge." Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it so. Nice try, MrF, but as I've clearly explained several times, the issue is not about "God's perfect sinlessness". The issue is about the Incarnate Jesus having the capacity to respond to temptation in every way just as we are. I would appreciate if you would not misrepresent the issue.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 11:00:47 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 552
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
Nice try, MrF, but as I've clearly explained several times, the issue is not about "God's perfect sinlessness". The issue is about the Incarnate Jesus having the capacity to respond to temptation in every way just as we are. I would appreciate if you would not misrepresent the issue. This is good.I believe that he was human and as such experienced temptation as a human.I do however understand him to be like Adam who was sinless prior to his disobedience,therefore not tainted with sinful lust and desires like ourselves.I.E. Sin nature.
As for his ability to sin.I believe the fact that he existed as God simultaneously to his existing as human made him infallible by default.On this point is where the question and argument can be had.
I understand the benefit of seeing him as capable of sinning.I don't think it ties in to my being able to be sinless as well.I think this would have been true for Adam in his sinless state,but impossible for us in ours.
Having said that,I do believe and understand that having the holy spirit allows us to report victory over sin.That we are able in our everyday lives choose to live a life of victory over sin.
I think it also goes without saying that no one has done this or will this side of heaven.We live,we sin,we are forgiven.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 11:32:45 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
As for his ability to sin.I believe the fact that he existed as God simultaneously to his existing as human made him infallible by default.On this point is where the question and argument can be had. So you believe that "being fully God" somehow overwhelms "being fully human"? How does an infallible Jesus, unable to succumb to temptation, sympathize with our weakness (Hebr 4:15)?
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I think it also goes without saying that no one has done this or will this side of heaven.We live,we sin,we are forgiven. What a sad way to live one's Christian walk. It seems that Jesus sits at the Father's right hand and says, "Well Dad, it's too bad your children are always sinning. I really don't get it since I was able to resist my temptations. But I'm infallible so it really wasn't such a big deal anyway. So I guess We better forgive them once more".
No, I much prefer to imagine the following conversation: "Oh Dad, I feel so close to drmark when he faces temptations because I remember clearly how it was for me. Only by Your grace and the power of the Holy Spirit was I able to resist my temptations. And now my Spirit lives in drmark so he too can have the ability to not sin, by Your grace and the power of the Holy Spirit". That is what Hebr 4:15 means to me!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 11:36:44 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
...That is what Hebr 4:15 means to me!
I'm guessing 1 John 1:10 means something different to you than what it says, right?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 11:52:31 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
I'm guessing 1 John 1:10 means something different to you than what it says, right? You're guessing wrong (again), Jimbo! To prove me wrong, all you have to do is find just one of my 3159 posts over the past 2 years that claims I have never sinned. Happy searching!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 11:58:22 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I'm guessing 1 John 1:10 means something different to you than what it says, right? You're guessing wrong (again), Jimbo! To prove me wrong, all you have to do is find just one of my 3159 posts over the past 2 years that claims I have never sinned. Happy searching!
Oh... So are you saying you have the ability to not sin but you choose not to exercise it?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 12:17:10 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Oh... So are you saying you have the ability to not sin but you choose not to exercise it? Once more, for the record:
All sanctified Believers have the ability to not sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. We also have the God-given free will to neglect His grace and choose our power over that of the Holy Spirit. I can only speak for myself at this point, but I will most likely and eventually sin if I neglect grace and choose my power over His.
So, the short answer is NO! - it is not my ability to choose that keeps me from sinning, it is the righteousness of Christ living in me that does all the work.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 12:55:24 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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Sorry, but that sounds a little like a couple on this forum a month or two back that asserted it is possible for believers to never die - that there is biblical proof that the mortal bodies of believers are not mortal. Never mind that there's not a single of the original Apostles that was able to achieve it (though they held out for the possibility that John might have done so) or that there are no believers between the ages of, say, 200 and 2000 years. But the possibility was there.
And to achieve it, they'd have to go against scripture to the contrary (once appointed and all that).
Just like your position. In order to achieve never sinning again, you have to go against the statement in 1 John 1:10.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 1:10:37 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
Just like your position. In order to achieve never sinning again, you have to go against the statement in 1 John 1:10. That's your faulty interpretation of my position, Jimbo. We don't "achieve" anything - we obtain righteousness, holiness, purity, and perfection by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Believer to keep on sinning, you have to go against several statements in 1 John 3:4-10 (once appointed and all that).
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 1:47:51 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Personally, I care a whole lot more about Who He is and what He is doing for me rather than what He hypothetically cannot do.
This is about who He is! It is part of His very core. If He could possibly sin, it says a lot about who He is, and what it says, I'm not comfortable with.
quote:
The same thing that keeps me from sinning now! I believe it's called Holiness.
If Jesus has that holiness, and being God, had perfect holiness, then wouldn't the technical possibility of sin be a moot point? Even if He could have sinned, He wouldn't have sinned, which makes that possibility empty.
quote:
And what does my forgiven past have to do with my sanctified future?
It has to do with, as you put it, free will. Could Jesus have chosen to sin if He had, as you say, Holiness?
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Nice try, MrF, but as I've clearly explained several times, the issue is not about "God's perfect sinlessness". The issue is about the Incarnate Jesus having the capacity to respond to temptation in every way just as we are. I would appreciate if you would not misrepresent the issue.
Whoa whoa, I'm not the one calling other people's views esoteric. I am not misrepresenting anything, to the best of my knowledge.
God's perfect sinlessness comes into play here. If God could have sinned, then it says something about His nature that I feel contradicts the idea of His perfect holiness.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 2:01:29 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Just like your position. In order to achieve never sinning again, you have to go against the statement in 1 John 1:10. That's your faulty interpretation of my position, Jimbo. We don't "achieve" anything - we obtain righteousness, holiness, purity, and perfection by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Believer to keep on sinning, you have to go against several statements in 1 John 3:4-10 (once appointed and all that).
Semantics. Semantics and a misunderstanding of the rest of 1 John. He was talking about sin as a normal way of life - which is NOT characteristic of a true believer.
I fully understand that God's grace saves, maintains, and make provision for growing in Christ. But we are not forced into Christ-likeness, we are enabled.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 4:02:43 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
I fully understand that God's grace saves, maintains, and make provision for growing in Christ. But we are not forced into Christ-likeness, we are enabled. I also agree, Jimbo. So why are you arguing with me?
quote:
I am not misrepresenting anything, to the best of my knowledge. The OP specifically asks if Jesus could have sinned if He wanted to in the life he lived. All of these are past tense. In my opinion, it is misrepresenting the issue to discuss the perfect sinlessness of God in the present as equating to the life that Incarnated Jesus lived in the past. If that's the sole basis for your position, it is weak at best!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/3/2008 4:11:10 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If that's the sole basis for your position, it is weak at best!
Thankfully, it's not the sole basis. Merely a thought I had.
I apologize if you found it misleading.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/5/2008 5:11:51 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
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From: Minnesota
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Aw man! I forgot about this thread! 1 John 3:9 says (NKJV) "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
My question is "who or what cannot sin?"
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/5/2008 8:43:22 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
My question is "who or what cannot sin?"
If by "sin" you mean "individual sinful acts," then I would answer God, though hypothetically, believers as well.
If, however, by "sin" you mean "living a lifestyle characterized by sinfulness," then I would say not only can God and believers exist as such, but I would contend they must.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/5/2008 10:36:03 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1958
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From: Kansas
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Hi MrFribbles...
Would you agree with the following definition of "cannot sin"?
1 John 3:9-10 ( KJV ) 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [does not keep practicing sin]; for his seed [God’s life] remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [is not able to sin] because he is born of God—When we are “born again,” a new life is born within us. The new life or nature which is “born of God” does not sin and is entirely incompatible with sin. It gives us a hatred for sin, and though at times we may give in to sin, we are continually fighting against it. Sin is still active, but it no longer has complete control over us. The normal direction of a Christian’s life is against sin and toward God; the new nature is not in control, although the old sinful nature is not yet completely dead and still causes us to sin occasionally. The Holy Spirit works, through the word of God, to sanctify us or to make us holy and pure, as Christ is.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/6/2008 12:26:37 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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More or less, bob, yes I would.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/7/2008 1:03:11 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Aw man! I forgot about this thread! 1 John 3:9 says (NKJV) "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
My question is "who or what cannot sin?"
If the new nature that is born of God "cannot sin" how much more the only begotten Son of God who is God who "cannot be tempted" and cannot sin?
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 10:43:50 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2402
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Oh man. I forgot about this thread until this morning when this discussion came up in one of my theology classes, and I was grossly outnumbered (can you say "the only one out of 40 students plus a professor that thought Jesus could never have sinned?").
I'm curious if anyone else is disturbed by the thought that there could even be an inkling of desire within the Creator to submit to the authority of His creation (regardless of whether he chose to or not)?
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love.ben
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 12:09:36 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I'm curious if anyone else is disturbed by the thought that there could even be an inkling of desire within the Creator to submit to the authority of His creation (regardless of whether he chose to or not)?
I am disturbed by the thought of the Creator submitting to the authority of His creation, but I am not disturbed by the thought of the man Jesus being tempted in every way that we are. I would expect nothing less from one who is fully man. Just as I would expect there to be no possibility for the temptation of One who is fully God.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 12:13:09 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2402
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You create too much of a dichotomy between Christ's humanity and His divinity. They are completely intertwined and cannot be so neatly separated like that.
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love.ben
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 12:33:36 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 552
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I'm curious if anyone else is disturbed by the thought that there could even be an inkling of desire within the Creator to submit to the authority of His creation (regardless of whether he chose to or not)?
I am disturbed by the thought of the Creator submitting to the authority of His creation, but I am not disturbed by the thought of the man Jesus being tempted in every way that we are. I would expect nothing less from one who is fully man. Just as I would expect there to be no possibility for the temptation of One who is fully God.
Peace
This is where I allow myself to get lost in this discussion. That is Jesus although being fully human, was perfect in his human state. Just as Adam prior to sinning,is thought or said to have been perfect,so too was Jesus.
I just believe that Jesus represented what we now are & yet to some degree will be.That is being perfect & entire lacking nothing.That he was & is the perfect merger of God & man.
That being both God & man together, gave Jesus the ability to resist temptation.Is there agreement that Jesus was sinless to begin with as was Adam? Or is the understanding that he was just like us tainted by sin from the start?
I do think it makes a tremendous difference.Prior to sin Adam would not have had sinful desires as he knew neither good or evil.We on the other hand are born with the duality of nature & must resist sin within us as well as around us.
I believe that Jesus would have shared the sinless nature of Adam,which would have still made him fully human,but not sinful like us.The temptation of Jesus would have been as it was with Adam,that is his desire to serve and please his own flesh.
Reading the temptation of Jesus in the gospels,that is what is pointed to.He was tempted at all points.He was tempted through his eyes,flesh & the pride of life.
Unlike Adam he successfully kept faith with God, and did not attempt to walk independent of God.Jesus always sought to do the will of his Father over his own will,even being obedient unto death.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 1:41:20 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
You create too much of a dichotomy between Christ's humanity and His divinity. They are completely intertwined and cannot be so neatly separated like that.
I see no dichotomy in Jesus Christ being fully man and fully God. I do see a dichotomy in what you present, not the least of which is Hebrews 4:15.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/19/2008 3:49:16 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm curious if anyone else is disturbed by the thought that there could even be an inkling of desire within the Creator to submit to the authority of His creation (regardless of whether he chose to or not)? I'm curious why you are so disturbed about accepting the full humanity of Jesus, 1l1G1w! Many times I disagree with URF on matters of theology, but not this one. This is precisely my response to what I view as bordering on Docetism: "I see no dichotomy in Jesus Christ being fully man and fully God. I do see a dichotomy in what you present..."
For fair balance, I just found this article on the history of Nestorian Theology in the Early Church. Assuming it is accurate and balanced, it would seem that this issue of understanding the intricacies of the Incarnation was a major political event in the 4th-5th centuries. I am particularly intrigued by the summary position attributed to the alleged heretic Nestorius:
quote:
From his exile, Nestorius condemned the heresy falsely attributed to him, that the human Jesus and the divine Christ were two different persons, and asserted that Jesus Christ was one Lord, indivisible in his person (prosopon), but containing two natures (ousiai), the divine and the human. Can we all agree on this orthodoxy?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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