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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 56
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(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 5:30:28 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
"The reason Jesus was fallible was not only because he was human, but because infallibility is also a characteristic of deity." Whatever one's definition of infallible is, I do not understand this statement, Bt!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 5:38:14 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I'm speechless, MrF. Surely you understand the concept of distinct persons in the theology of the Trinity. How did the universe function without "God" while He was dead for 36 hours?
Oh, I have no problem with God the Father and God the Spirit being alive - and in some sense Jesus, of course, still existed. But if God the Son did not die on the cross, what did He do?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 6:21:47 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
"The reason Jesus was fallible was not only because he was human, but because infallibility is also a characteristic of deity." Whatever one's definition of infallible is, I do not understand this statement, Bt!
Your previous statements led me to believe that you think since Jesus was presented with a test or temptation, that He could have failed. This leads me to believe that you think God, in the OT, could have failed because He too was tempted (if you are consistent). Therefore, you must believe "containing the capacity to sin or fail" isn't only a human trait, but also one of Deity.
I was basically wanting a clarification or to see if you were consistent.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 7:17:09 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I was basically wanting a clarification or to see if you were consistent Bt, I already answered this in my post #244: "Entirely different context, entirely different word, entirely different relevance to the OP." You are inconsistent if you think think that the OT testing of God by selfish humans has anything to do with the NT tempting of Christ by Satan.
Regarding 1 John 3:9, although you raise an intriguing thought that "he cannot sin" refers back to Jesus, the seed, I think a much better explanation is found in careful examination of the verb tenses as discussed here.
quote:
But if God the Son did not die on the cross, what did He do? MrF, we both know that the Incarnate Jesus, Second Person of the Triune Godhead, died physically on the Cross. I still have no idea what this known Truth has to do with a peccable (under debate) Christ or an impeccable (beyond question) Father God. If you have a point to make, please get to it.
BTW, do you differentiate impeccability from infallibility, other than the Catholic doctrine of Papacy?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 7:24:51 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If you have a point to make, please get to it.
My point is raising the question of how active Christ's deity was during His earthly ministry. From what I've understood from your point of view, God the Son was deity only in a passive sense while on earth, and the only divine actions were committed by either the Father or the Spirit. Is that correct?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 7:56:33 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
I really don't know, steve, since the Incarnation is far beyond my feeble mind to comprehend. I just know what the Bible says - fully human and fully divine.
Actually the bible does'nt call Jesus fully human and fully divine it's a deduction. Not to say i don't believe he was and is divine but if he kept his diety as a human then much of the NT does'nt make sense.
He would'nt be tempted, nor get tired, nor be truly upset to the point of sweating blood if he retained his divinity. So in some way he set his diety aside temporarily.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 8:02:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
From what I've understood from your point of view, God the Son was deity only in a passive sense while on earth, and the only divine actions were committed by either the Father or the Spirit. Is that correct? Whoa, my head is starting to spin. When God enables you to avoid sinning and resist temptation, do you consider that in the "passive sense" so that the Father's grace and the Spirit's power are committing the conscious action instead of you yourself? Is this some kind of gnostic dualism you're suggesting? We just "let go and let God"? What does "free will" mean to you, MrF?
Look, on another thread discussing Father, Son, and man, there is an excellent post #60 by URForgiven that highlights the relationship between human Jesus and divine Father. Let me post a relevant exerpt:
quote:
When Jesus walked this earth, He never functioned in His own divinity. He functioned exactly as the first Adam, a true human being without the sin nature, and indwelt by the Spirit of God. It was not Jesus's divinity that made Him sinless until death, for He had stripped Himself of His divine priveleges.
Jesus Christ shows us man as God intended man to be. What enabled Jesus Christ to remain sinless was that He was completely man, and that He was completely man because He was completely available to His Father.
Where the first Adam failed, Jesus succeeded, because He was never at any moment, not dependent on God the Father. It was God the Father who worked in and through Christ, just as now it is Christ who works in and through us, as we make ourselves available to Him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 10:00:50 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 3003
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Jesus could not have sinned.
It was prophesied that He would not sin.
even tho it was not one of the poll options.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 9:14:50 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
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quote:
Jesus could not have sinned.
It was prophesied that He would not sin. So this is the unsolvable conundrum - can God make a rock too big for Him to move? Can Jesus sin if God's Word said He would not? I can see why this was not one of the poll options! 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 9:58:29 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I was basically wanting a clarification or to see if you were consistent Bt, I already answered this in my post #244:
I know, that's why I said "was" and not "am." I was simply responding to post #251 by trying to clarify my previous statement.
quote:
You are inconsistent if you think think that the OT testing of God by selfish humans has anything to do with the NT tempting of Christ by Satan.
But why would Jesus quote Deuteronomy 6:16 in Matthew 4:7?
quote:
"Entirely different context, entirely different word, entirely different relevance to the OP."
Since Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16, do you want to recant your statement or do you still stand by it?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 9:59:47 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
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From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
Jesus could not have sinned.
It was prophesied that He would not sin.
even tho it was not one of the poll options.
Very interesting thought! I have never even considered that.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 10:14:07 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Actually the bible does'nt call Jesus fully human and fully divine it's a deduction. Not to say i don't believe he was and is divine but if he kept his diety as a human then much of the NT does'nt make sense.
Actually, Col 2:9 says "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
quote:
He would'nt be tempted,
Ah, but God in the OT was "tempted" multiple times. Check out Exodus 17:2, Deuteronomy 6:16, and Psalm 78:41.
quote:
nor get tired,
But God rested on the 7th day of creation.
quote:
nor be truly upset to the point of sweating blood if he retained his divinity.
Do you really think God is emotionless?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 11:05:24 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
When God enables you to avoid sinning and resist temptation, do you consider that in the "passive sense" so that the Father's grace and the Spirit's power are committing the conscious action instead of you yourself?
I'm not God. Whether or not Christ's humanity was active while on earth is not the question, I'm asking what part His divinity played.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 11:58:26 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
But why would Jesus quote Deuteronomy 6:16 in Matthew 4:7?
Since Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16, do you want to recant your statement or do you still stand by it? Beanteaser, I'm sorry that we seem to be talking past one another on this exchange. Let me just succinctly state my position. The OT concept of "testing" God (Hebrew word nacah) seems entirely different to me than the NT concept of "tempting" (Greek word peirazo) in context, semantic meaning and relevance. You are free to disagree but I will stand by my statement until proven otherwise!
quote:
I'm not God. Whether or not Christ's humanity was active while on earth is not the question, I'm asking what part His divinity played. Nor is Jesus the Father! Did you read URForgiven's post I exerpted above? His and my reading of Phil 2:6-7 answers the question. We cannot divide Jesus into "parts to play", MrF. Jesus willingly emptied Himself in order to be totally 100% available to the Father's Will. That is my role model and my goal for holiness - to willingly empty myself to be totally 100% available to the Father's Will. That does not mean I cannot ever sin again!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 1:02:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Did you read URForgiven's post I exerpted above? His and my reading of Phil 2:6-7 answers the question.
I know it does - I just disagree with the answer.
quote:
We cannot divide Jesus into "parts to play", MrF.
Of course not. I believe Jesus' divine and human natures were both 100% active during His earthly ministry - though of course, there were times when He limited the way in which they were expressed, i.e., not calling down 12 legions of angels.
quote:
Jesus willingly emptied Himself in order to be totally 100% available to the Father's Will. That is my role model and my goal for holiness - to willingly empty myself to be totally 100% available to the Father's Will.
If you contend Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity (not to the point of ceasing to be God, but to the point where that aspect of Him was not active), what do you empty yourself of?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 1:24:43 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
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Father through the Son:
John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? What I am telling you I do not say on My own authority and of My own accord; but the Father Who lives continually in Me does the (His) works (His own miracles, deeds of power)."
John 5:19
"So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn]."
Son through us:
John 6:57
"Just as the living Father sent Me and I live by (through, because of) the Father, even so whoever continues to feed on Me [whoever takes Me for his food and is nourished by Me] shall [in his turn] live through and because of Me."
John 15:5
"I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing."
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 1:53:56 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
If you contend Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity (not to the point of ceasing to be God, but to the point where that aspect of Him was not active), what do you empty yourself of? Now MrF, I will forgive you this one time for misquoting me. I have never said that "Jesus emptied Himself of His Divinity" and that is not what the text says either. Indeed, I caught steve7150 on the very same hermeneutical error! Jesus emptied Himself, which I discussed earlier in the thread to mean willingly gave up His status, priveleges, and rights (you didn't like my word "claims" before) to Who He is as Second Person of the Divine Godhead.
In a similar fashion, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I may also empty myself by willingly giving up my status, priveleges, and rights to who I am as autonomous, self-willed, prideful drmark. My goal is that God makes that aspect of me inactive, so that I will not have to sin every day. That's the best I can explain it, MrF, I hope it suffices.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 3:01:04 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
Ah, but God in the OT was "tempted" multiple times. Check out Exodus 17:2, Deuteronomy 6:16, and Psalm 78:41.
This is the outcome when we read Scripture superficially. The Hebrew and Greek words for "tempt" can also be written as "test", and the above references are to the testing of God by the Israelites.
We all can "test" the limits of God's patience, longsuffering and grace when we take our sin and unbelief to the limits and see if we can get away with them. That is how God was tested or provoked.
At the same time God cannot be solicited to sin, and since Christ is the God-Man, He could not be solicited to sin, although His patience was tested daily by His enemies.
While the solicitation by Satan was real, it was impossible for Christ -- God manifest in the flesh -- to respond to any such solicitation.
Those who teach that Christ could have sinned teach false doctrine. Those who focus solely on Christ's humanity (and not even His sinless humanity but merely His humanity) do not really understand what God has revealed about His only begotten Son -- the one who loves righteousness and hates iniquity is indeed the Lord God Almighty (with the Father and the Holy Spirit).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 4:20:24 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
This is the outcome when we read Scripture superficially. The Hebrew and Greek words for "tempt" can also be written as "test", and the above references are to the testing of God by the Israelites. Thank you, Ezra, for coming to my rescue, even though I disagree with your understanding of "real solicitation" in the following paragraph:
quote:
While the solicitation by Satan was real, it was impossible for Christ -- God manifest in the flesh -- to respond to any such solicitation. If it was impossible to respond, then it was not, by real definition, a solicitation! If a person is comatose and you tempt him with a zillion dollars to jump out of his ICU bed and disconnect his life-support systems, is that a real temptation?
quote:
Those who teach that Christ could have sinned teach false doctrine. Come on, Ezra, get off your "false doctrine" high horse. I have asked repeatedly for one Scripture verse to confirm the impeccability of the Incarnate Jesus and a Bible student of your caliber should know that there is not one!
Look, folks, I've spent more time on this thread than I should have. I'm going to pretty much wrap up with this very well done post I found while doing internet research on the history of doctrinal peccability. It has come closer to anything else I've read to better explain what I think is sound doctrine on the subject.
Jesus - Peccable or Impeccable?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 7:25:00 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 244
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Ah, but God in the OT was "tempted" multiple times. Check out Exodus 17:2, Deuteronomy 6:16, and Psalm 78:41.
This is the outcome when we read Scripture superficially. The Hebrew and Greek words for "tempt" can also be written as "test", and the above references are to the testing of God by the Israelites.
I am very aware of this. The reason I worded it that way is, well, that is how Scripture puts it. Also, I think Christ was "tempted" in a similar fashion since he quoted Deuteronomy 6:16 in Matthew chapter 4.
quote:
While the solicitation by Satan was real, it was impossible for Christ -- God manifest in the flesh -- to respond to any such solicitation.
Those who teach that Christ could have sinned teach false doctrine. Those who focus solely on Christ's humanity (and not even His sinless humanity but merely His humanity) do not really understand what God has revealed about His only begotten Son -- the one who loves righteousness and hates iniquity is indeed the Lord God Almighty (with the Father and the Holy Spirit).
Agreed!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/23/2008 10:20:25 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Now MrF, I will forgive you this one time for misquoting me.
I like to go by the 70 times 7 rule, myself. ; )
quote:
I have never said that "Jesus emptied Himself of His Divinity"
Now it is you who are misquoting me, sir. Though I imagine unintentionally. My parenthetical statement was meant to indicate this -
quote:
When Jesus walked this earth, He never functioned in His own divinity.
quote:
Jesus emptied Himself, which I discussed earlier in the thread to mean willingly gave up His status, priveleges, and rights (you didn't like my word "claims" before) to Who He is as Second Person of the Divine Godhead.
And as you know, I disagree on that interpretation of emptying.
If Jesus gave up His status, why did He not reject worship? If He gave up on rights, how could He have turned the stones to bread? If He gave up on status, why did the demons call Him what they did?
quote:
In a similar fashion, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I may also empty myself by willingly giving up my status, priveleges, and rights to who I am as autonomous, self-willed, prideful drmark.
That's different. In your view, Jesus gave up what was rightfully His. You have no right to what you gave up - it was sinful, something unnatural, something abhorrent to God. In your view, Jesus gave up work boots to walk over broken glass, but you gave up a 200-pound weighted vest to climb fifty flights of stairs.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, which is certainly possible.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/24/2008 9:05:47 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
You have no right to what you gave up - it was sinful, something unnatural, something abhorrent to God. This really will be my last post here (unless the HS clearly directs otherwise). For someone to say that a person created in God's Image has no right to self-will makes a mockery of the concept of personal responsibility and consequences as demonstrated throughout Scripture. It has become painfully obvious that the theology of extreme sovereignty is diametrically opposed to a proper understanding of God's Love. But I trust the Word of God to judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/24/2008 10:35:14 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
This really will be my last post here
Now this thread will get boring. : (
quote:
For someone to say that a person created in God's Image has no right to self-will makes a mockery of the concept of personal responsibility and consequences as demonstrated throughout Scripture.
I'm not saying that a person doesn't have the right to make choices (and perhaps I phrased myself incorrectly). Adam and Eve had the right to choose to eat the fruit or not. But once they did, they corrupted that Image, and their very nature was changed.
The unbelievers' sinful nature and the Christians' flesh (which I use in the specialized sense to describe sinful desires, not in the general sense used to describe the physical person) are not pleasing to God. People have no right to indulge them in a sinful manner, anymore than a US citizen has the right to not pay their taxes. It can still be done, but not without negative consequences.
quote:
It has become painfully obvious that the theology of extreme sovereignty is diametrically opposed to a proper understanding of God's Love.
Just like the theology of extreme love is diametrically opposed to a proper understanding of God's sovereignty? ; )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/24/2008 10:32:41 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 3003
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Those who teach that Christ could have sinned teach false doctrine.
since Christ was perfect, and Chist came in the flesh, and lived His life doing the will of the Father. went to the cross without sin.
is it right to say that He "could not have sinned" or is it right to say that He "was perfect and chose not to sin"?
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