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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 2:33:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
The main issue I have with church being too feminine is that man are leaving the church. Something has to be done to reverse that trend.
Not real men and not real men in my church. The only place I see a lack of men in my church is in the alto and soprano sections of the choir and... well... I think that's fairly normal.
I think I once mentioned that I play trumpet in our church orchestra. That means I play above the treble clef on a regular basis. And a trumpet play that does that ain't no sissy. Whimps need not apply for that section.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 4:01:06 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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I am not sure if we have to make it more masculine, just less feminine.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 4:11:47 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
The main issue I have with church being too feminine is that man are leaving the church. Something has to be done to reverse that trend.
Not real men and not real men in my church. The only place I see a lack of men in my church is in the alto and soprano sections of the choir and... well... I think that's fairly normal.
I think I once mentioned that I play trumpet in our church orchestra. That means I play above the treble clef on a regular basis. And a trumpet play that does that ain't no sissy. Whimps need not apply for that section.
I think your church is an exception. This website shows that there are 2 women for each male in church in the UK. I couldn't find the US stats (the link I read before is gone) and know they are similar, but not as bad.
I agree about the trumpet. I played for about 10 years while in school and kind of miss playing it.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 4:13:40 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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HERE is a link containing the stats in the US.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 6/30/2008 7:03:01 PM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Hello,
I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?
Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.
Your thoughts?
My first thoughts when I came across the title of this thread was, "... Are you serious? LOL!!!" But then I started to think, "... Well, actually, I guess some churches are indeed a bit too touchy-feely these days." Hmm. Aside from all that, I do know there is a disturbing decline in male members, just as there seems to be a general falling away from the church now, too. It's all been revealed to us in advance, though, that this would happen. And a lot more besides.
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/23/2008 1:53:32 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leo71
Hello,
I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?
Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.
Your thoughts?
Yes, it has become too feminine. I was talking to an old college ministry friend a couple years back about where our old church was heading. I said to him "I just can't sing another sappy love song to Jesus! I CAN"T!!" That's when he told me to read the book "Why Men Hate Going to Church" Beanteaser found the related "Church For Men" web-site
quote:
Beanteaser
HERE is a link containing the stats in the US.
The book and website have all kinds of ideas to "show men and women how to integrate a healthy, life-giving masculine spirit throughout their churches and their personal ministries."
Finding this ministry has encouraged and re-energized my faith, if for no other reason than I found out I was not alone in my frustrations and that other men had a vision for what God could do. Check it out.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 3:35:24 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
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From: Minnesota
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I just posted this in the "she says" forum. It's interesting to see the female perspective so check it out if you'd like.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 3:45:49 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
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I'm secure enough in my masculinity that I don't feel threatened by flowers in the sanctuary or the key signature of a song. But that's just me, not everyone is.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 6:20:15 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1084
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
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quote:
I'm secure enough in my masculinity that I don't feel threatened by flowers in the sanctuary or the key signature of a song. But that's just me, not everyone is.
I completely agree. I think the entire premise is silly. If flowers and music in the wrong style and pitch is keeping you from worship with your family, you need to adjust your thinking and realize not everything revolves around your own sensibilities.
_____________________________
Lutefisk--The Piece Of Cod That Passeth All Understanding
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 12:06:43 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
I'm secure enough in my masculinity that I don't feel threatened by flowers in the sanctuary or the key signature of a song. But that's just me, not everyone is.
I completely agree. I think the entire premise is silly. If flowers and music in the wrong style and pitch is keeping you from worship with your family, you need to adjust your thinking and realize not everything revolves around your own sensibilities.
That's great for you guys, but honestly, I'd say you two perfectly illustrate the problem. Here we have a faith that was founded by God in the form of a man, who built His church with men, which is now driving A LOT men away, but because you're sensibilities aren't offended, it's a silly issue (or there's not a problem). Who needs to adjust their thinking here?
If any other demographic - women, youth, minorities, etc. were under-represented, we'd be concerned.
The Lord never promised His followers an easy, cushy life with flowers and tissue. Eventually, we'll be faced with some challenges that will force churches to 'man-up'. Question is, will there be any men left?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 12:14:40 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
...The Lord never promised His followers an easy, cushy life with flowers and tissue. Eventually, we'll be faced with some challenges that will force churches to 'man-up'. Question is, will there be any men left?
Do you really think in my 56 years on this planet, more than 41 as a believer, that I've somehow managed to escape any challenges, sorrow, or pain but have lived a cushy life - or that having some of God's flowers in the sanctuary or having all songs in just the keys of G or D somehow makes for a tough, manly life?
Really?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 12:36:10 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1084
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I don't see the sort of victimhood exhibited on this thread as anything remotely close to "manning up".
_____________________________
Lutefisk--The Piece Of Cod That Passeth All Understanding
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:29:58 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
...The Lord never promised His followers an easy, cushy life with flowers and tissue. Eventually, we'll be faced with some challenges that will force churches to 'man-up'. Question is, will there be any men left?
Do you really think in my 56 years on this planet, more than 41 as a believer, that I've somehow managed to escape any challenges, sorrow, or pain but have lived a cushy life - or that having some of God's flowers in the sanctuary or having all songs in just the keys of G or D somehow makes for a tough, manly life?
Really?
Honestly, I wasn't thinking of your life experiences. I was speaking of the church as a whole, which has led a very cushy existence in this country. We all have pain and challenges in our lives. How many of yours are/were due to your faith? None of mine have been.
The issue is so much deeper than flowers and key changes. Sorry you can't (or won't) see deeper than that.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:35:38 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
I don't see the sort of victimhood exhibited on this thread as anything remotely close to "manning up".
So we just sit down, shut up and sing in a higher key?
Who's a victim here? If we let the church continue to feminize our boys and alienate our men, then the church and the gospel are weakened. If men don't step forward and confront the problem, who will?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:35:48 PM
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1mlasp
Posts: 263
Joined: 12/9/2005
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I don't think that putting sawdust on the floor or using machine oil scented air fresheners is going to draw men in. Personally, I like most of the flowers in my church as the arrangements are usually used more as accents than anything else. I don't understand how it could be a "man deterrent."
More men than women are ministry leaders in our church. Our church has about the same number of men than women. I wonder if there is a correlation here.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:38:09 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Honestly, I wasn't thinking of your life experiences. I was speaking of the church as a whole, which has led a very cushy existence in this country. We all have pain and challenges in our lives. How many of yours are/were due to your faith? None of mine have been.
The issue is so much deeper than flowers and key changes. Sorry you can't (or won't) see deeper than that.
Well expert on the woes of the Church, none of my challenges, sorrow, or pain have resulted from a few flowers or the keys of any songs or the color of the carpet. That much I can guarantee. I wasn't the one to bring those up in this thread.
And, yes, I have suffered as a result of my faith. Jesus said we would if we are truly His. One would almost have to choose to hide his light under a basket to escape all pain or challenges as a result of their faith.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:42:19 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
I don't see the sort of victimhood exhibited on this thread as anything remotely close to "manning up".
So we just sit down, shut up and sing in a higher key?
Who's a victim here? If we let the church continue to feminize our boys and alienate our men, then the church and the gospel are weakened. If men don't step forward and confront the problem, who will?
Instead of REAL men, you then have a bunch of sissy, whiney men if they are so sensitive they can't take a little discomfort.
Frankly, I think they're just looking for any excuse to do their own thing away from God or His people and they only use such non-issues to hide behind.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 3:00:40 PM
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1mlasp
Posts: 263
Joined: 12/9/2005
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quote:
Instead of REAL men, you then have a bunch of sissy, whiney men if they are so sensitive they can't take a little discomfort.
Frankly, I think they're just looking for any excuse to do their own thing away from God or His people and they only use such non-issues to hide behind. exactly.
Anyone consider this?:
What if out of the many people who attend church, how many are even believers? The number of actual Christians attending may very well be evenly distributed between men and women.
Just throwin' it out there...
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 3:59:59 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Well expert on the woes of the Church, none of my challenges, sorrow, or pain have resulted from a few flowers or the keys of any songs or the color of the carpet. That much I can guarantee. I wasn't the one to bring those up in this thread.
Neither was I. Flowers and tissues are symtomatic of much deeper issues, which, again, you seem unwilling to face. Doesn't take an expert to see it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
And, yes, I have suffered as a result of my faith. Jesus said we would if we are truly His. One would almost have to choose to hide his light under a basket to escape all pain or challenges as a result of their faith.
Then God will honor and bless you in your sufferings.
Personally, I've been made to feel uncomfortable or made fun of because of my faith. I've faced hostility, but nothing like the persecuted church in the world. Again, no expert here, but when THAT kind of persecution comes to the comfortable, feminized Western Church of today, I sincerely doubt we'll have the fortitude to endure. But, with God, all things are possible - IF we look to Him.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 4:01:49 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 216
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1mlasp
quote:
Instead of REAL men, you then have a bunch of sissy, whiney men if they are so sensitive they can't take a little discomfort.
Frankly, I think they're just looking for any excuse to do their own thing away from God or His people and they only use such non-issues to hide behind. exactly.
Anyone consider this?:
What if out of the many people who attend church, how many are even believers? The number of actual Christians attending may very well be evenly distributed between men and women.
Just throwin' it out there...
Good question. How in the world would you measure that?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 4:06:04 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1084
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
Status: online
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quote:
Instead of REAL men, you then have a bunch of sissy, whiney men if they are so sensitive they can't take a little discomfort.
Eggs-ackley...my wife and I watched a documentary recently about believers in China. These men (and women) face loss of social status, loss of job, imprisonment, and even death to get together and worship. Kleenex boxes, flowers and girly songs keeping you from church? I hate to see what membership would look like if we faced any of the above. There's no excuse for men not to be in church in this country, regardless of decor or musical content. That's just a convenient excuse for men to do what they want, and abdicate responsibility.
_____________________________
Lutefisk--The Piece Of Cod That Passeth All Understanding
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 4:06:27 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Well expert on the woes of the Church, none of my challenges, sorrow, or pain have resulted from a few flowers or the keys of any songs or the color of the carpet. That much I can guarantee. I wasn't the one to bring those up in this thread.
Neither was I. Flowers and tissues are symtomatic of much deeper issues, which, again, you seem unwilling to face. Doesn't take an expert to see it.
Symptomatic of what, besides a bunch of sissy, whiney men? I haven't seen a thing that indicates a feminine Church, just excuses.
Want me to face up, then get specific.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 5:15:28 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Symptomatic of what, besides a bunch of sissy, whiney men? I haven't seen a thing that indicates a feminine Church, just excuses.
Want me to face up, then get specific.
When it comes down to it, men are leaving the Church. The gap is now 39/61. Perhaps if church wasn't like watching a chick flick, more men would attend. You even admitted you don't like holding hands in church because it was a distraction. Do you think most men enjoy holding hands with someone other than wife/girlfriend or children?
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 5:50:22 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5850
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Symptomatic of what, besides a bunch of sissy, whiney men? I haven't seen a thing that indicates a feminine Church, just excuses.
Want me to face up, then get specific.
When it comes down to it, men are leaving the Church. The gap is now 39/61. Perhaps if church wasn't like watching a chick flick, more men would attend. You even admitted you don't like holding hands in church because it was a distraction. Do you think most men enjoy holding hands with someone other than wife/girlfriend or children?
I wouldn't/haven't abandoned church because I'm uncomfortable with holding hands during prayer. I find it distracting even when my in-laws want to hold hands while we give thanks before meals - has nothing to do with it being feminine. Fact is, I'm a hugger and always have been - but only with dear friends and close relatives. Same with holding hands, depends on who it is. But it's certainly not a reason for me to stay home on Sunday.
Just because men stay away from some churches, I do not see a logical jump to blaming femininity within the churches. What I do see is a break up of families and men who are more interested in being down at the back or out on the lake ('Down & Outers' we call 'em) than being in church on Sunday.
Men generally go where they want to be and deal with any discomforts - unless they are sissies.
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RE: Is church too feminine? - 7/31/2008 7:08:04 AM
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Bobby
Posts: 167
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From: Orangeburg, Clemson Prefecture, Japan
Status: offline
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Some thoughts from my view as a single 33-year old who's looking for love (in all the wrong places!) and trying to find that perfect woman.
First, I do agree that the songs are too feminine. Listen to the "romantic" songs on the market ("Breathe" is most notable) that too many churches indeed sing. John MacArthur noted the songs before the middle 19th century were strong in doctrine and in Colossians 3:16, a strong carrier of Scripture and sound doctrine. He then noted that point when musicials lacking formal seminarian study (pastoral or theological training) took over writing songs and began the move of the fluffy songs, noting personal experience and the feelings took over then.
Today's US government is based on feelings, as Nancy Pelosi, who has become the de facto President, and her left-hand man Harry Reid, have established laws based on their feelings and not what is important (see their sellout to the greenie weenies who are forcing Americans to buy Japanese and German microcars while banning the family sedan based on their feelings of Gaia Worship). Today's "worship" music is based on feelings, with little, if any, theological training needed. They sound like the top 40 love songs on the radio, and the kids and some adults are very happy with the fast beat compared to the seriousness of sacred song, something that Serena and I understand too well when we take to the studio. When I am learning sacred song, or even hear her sing sacred song, do I hear her sing the pop love tunes, or do I hear her sing the strong theological sacred song of the past? Of course it's the latter. At a friend's church last month a women told me that she is supportive of the idea that real sacred song should be sung, and not the secularised "sacred" music.
Back home, they do not care why the church is feminised or even think their church is such. But it has been thanks to bad doctrine and theology of feelings taught at the pulpit and the music that creates such emotions.
But I think the church is indeed too feminine when all they are wailing are songs that could go down as regular love songs and can be sung anywhere, and pastors teach not from the Bible but on "relationships", and "best life now".
Our entire society as a whole is feminised. Boys are being told they cannot play sports because there are limits to even high schools that even the local public school of 1,500 can no longer field a baseball team because of proportions under federal law. There are no limits to girls playing sports. In a small town nearby, boys are going to other schools because the same law prohibited a school from fielding a football team. The Curse of the Bambino in Boston is at Nickerson Field at Boston University, where Babe Ruth played his final home games of his career in Boston (NL), can no longer field football or baseball teams because of feminist requests, and the men are complaining that despite the school's size, the feminists are regulating what they can do.
But feminising the church is serious. We don't want to have serious teaching in church anymore, and the pastor (who is under a leave of absence) has done it by having such feminine sermons that did not teach of the Bible. The music fits the same way too, and now we have a revolt of members.
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