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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 4:29:01 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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quote:
Free Grace
You apparently didn't read all of my post. Gal 2:3 contradicts you. If Paul circumcized Timothy, why wasn't he "compelled" as the Scripture tells us, to do the same for Titus? Acts 16 tells us why he did it; "because of the Jews who knew his father was Greek". He did it to appease them. If you were correct, he would have done the same to Titus, but he didn't.
I did read all of your quote Where does it say that the Jews comeplelled Paul? It does say that Paul was compelled because Timothy's Father was a Greek and his mother was a Jew. Since Jews belived that the spiritual inheritance came through the mother as a Jew Timothy should be circumcised by the Law. Therefore The Law compelled Paul to circumcise Timothy. For the sake of the God ordained Law and so that Timothy might be all things to all people that CHrist might be Glorified. Paul was not compelledto circumcise Titus because Titua wa a Greek THrough anf through.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 5:02:59 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
Please stop skating the issue tell me where the Bible says that Baptism is spiritual and NOT physical.
Allow me ...
You can find alot of it in John 3.
Particularly, John said he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Concerning the competing baptisms, John said his must decrease, but His (Jesus') must increase. (John 3:30)
Jesus' teaching and baptism with the Holy Spirit was to go on growing, while John's teaching and baptism with water was to cease. John's teaching and baptizing in water served the purpose of pointing out the coming Messiah; because the Messiah is now come, and has entered publicly on the work of his glorious ministry, John's joy was fulfilled by this (John 3:29).
It didn't bother John that his work was complete, so why does it bother so many who claim Jesus is Messiah?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 5:08:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7870
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
Free Grace
You apparently didn't read all of my post. Gal 2:3 contradicts you. If Paul circumcized Timothy, why wasn't he "compelled" as the Scripture tells us, to do the same for Titus? Acts 16 tells us why he did it; "because of the Jews who knew his father was Greek". He did it to appease them. If you were correct, he would have done the same to Titus, but he didn't.
I did read all of your quote Where does it say that the Jews comeplelled Paul?
Read Acts 16 a bit more closely. Paul circumcized Timothy "because of the Jews who lived in the area". Please notice the reason was because of the Jews in the area, NOT because it was God's plan. Maybe you just don't see it, but Paul did cave in to "peer pressure" from those Jews.
quote:
It does say that Paul was compelled because Timothy's Father was a Greek and his mother was a Jew.
No, it does not. Paul circumsized Timothy "because of the Jews in the area" who knew Timothy's father was Greek. This had nothing to do with God's plan, as you think.
quote:
Since Jews belived that the spiritual inheritance came through the mother as a Jew Timothy should be circumcised by the Law. Therefore The Law compelled Paul to circumcise Timothy.
I'll repeat: it was "because of the Jews who lived in the area". It had ZERO to do with God's plan. Again, please Acts 16.
quote:
For the sake of the God ordained Law and so that Timothy might be all things to all people that CHrist might be Glorified. Paul was not compelledto circumcise Titus because Titua wa a Greek THrough anf through.
You still fail to respond to Gal 2:3. Paul said not even Titus was compelled to be circumsized. How do you explain that?
If you were correct, Paul would have wrestled Titus to the ground and "done it". But he didn't. Again, Gal 2:3 contradicts you.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 5:26:44 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
Please stop skating the issue tell me where the Bible says that Baptism is spiritual and NOT physical.
Allow me ...
You can find alot of it in John 3.
Particularly, John said he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Concerning the competing baptisms, John said his must decrease, but His (Jesus') must increase. (John 3:30)
Jesus' teaching and baptism with the Holy Spirit was to go on growing, while John's teaching and baptism with water was to cease. John's teaching and baptizing in water served the purpose of pointing out the coming Messiah; because the Messiah is now come, and has entered publicly on the work of his glorious ministry, John's joy was fulfilled by this (John 3:29).
It didn't bother John that his work was complete, so why does it bother so many who claim Jesus is Messiah?
I will say it again give me an EXACT verse with address of where I can see that CHristian Baptism is Spiritual and not physical. John talked about his need to decrease so Christ can Increase in reference to Water Baptism. John's Disciples came to him and complained that Jesus' disciples were baptizing with WATER and John sid the MINISTRY of Jesus must increase. The Baptism of the Holy spirit does not preclude baptizing with water. If we move into Acts, Peter says these people have recieved the Holy Spirit what is stopping them from being Baptized with WATER!
One does not preclude the other, that is why we Baptize not in the name of the Father or of the Son or of the Holy Spirit but of all three.
AGIN PLEASE GIVE ME AN EXACT SCRIPTURAL ADDRESS WHERE IT SAYS THAT WE RECIVE A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM AND FORFIT A PHYSICAL WATER BAPTISM.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 11:51:09 PM
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GraceBro
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Amen rileykins!!!
"The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4: 1-2
If water baptism is an "ordinance" or a "requirement" then why didn't Jesus baptize anybody? You'd think He would have set the example.
I also find it strange that all those suggesting that water baptism is required for or after salvation are so willing to question the salvation of those who haven't been baptized. Yet, we haven't questioned anybody elses salvation. Hmmm! I thought the Gospel was the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and nothing more. However, I have often discovered that whatever someone adds to the Gospel, they emphasize the most; water baptism, tongues, healing, etc. I guess there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus unless you don't get baptised! It has been my experience that those that believe in the necessity of water baptism really mean that an individual must be baptized in their church, in their waters, by their pastor. But, to say so would reveal the error immediately. There's no use trying to argue when you're outnumbered, but I praise your efforts! Thankfully, truth isn't dependent on who screams the loudest or posts their opinions the most!
Thanks again riley for standing firm.
Grace and Peace
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www.livinggodministries.net
http://96toLife.blogspot.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/29/2008 9:05:30 AM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
Amen rileykins!!!
"The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4: 1-2
If water baptism is an "ordinance" or a "requirement" then why didn't Jesus baptize anybody? You'd think He would have set the example.
So I guess that Jesus just allowed his disciples to do whatever they wanted and did not reign them in. THat is to say I suppose Jesus was deliberately letting the disciples go against his will by baptizing with water when that was not his plan and he just did not rebuke them. Funny how the the Gospels have no problem showing Jesus rebuking his disciples at other point then just do not show him rebuking them here.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/29/2008 9:49:52 AM
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jfaye
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I guess it's going to be difficult to come up with cases in point of my point!
I wanted to hear from those, who can attest to the fact that they had the
Holy Spirit, being saved, before being baptized! I think GraceBro is the only
one who has given the evidence I'm looking for.
The problem is, that I believe that being saved, most if not all, at an age of
understanding would most naturally WANT to follow through in obedience to
the Lord and be baptized.
Because of the presence of the Holy Spirit, being in us, having been sealed by
Him at the moment we believe we are compelled by Him to follow through with
baptism, but the 'water' of baptism, the 'act' of baptism is not what we 'believe
in' to our salvation--it is in Jesus, the belief in who He is, what He did in OUR
PLACE on the cross that we deserve, and that having paid the price to
ransom us from an eternity separated from God, we are saved, who trust Him
to sufficiently secure our salvation! As He was resurrected we are spiritually
resurrected from being born dead in our sins, and we will one day experience
bodily resurrection as He did and forever more be with Him. Baptism is a very
beautiful picture of that reality and should be the desire of our heart to enter
into as the desire of our hearts to follow what Jesus commanded us to do, telling
the world whose we are in that obedience!
For me, the question isn't whether it is necessary to be baptized or not, because I think
it is always necessary to obey the Lord. It is in what we are placing our faith in to be
saved! What is the evidence of salvation? It is, to the human eye, fruit of the presence
of the Holy Spirit. If we can only receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, what compells us
to be baptized in the first place if it is not the indwelling Holy Spirit? I do not believe it
is His work to compell us to obey before salvation. He convicts us of sin before salvation
working in our hearts to realize in our state from birth we are condemned, rightfully so, and
certainly sensitizes our conscience of our sinning (not to condemn us but to compell us to walk
as He walked) after but it is His work to point us to Jesus before salvation, not to
reside in us until we are saved!
Believe what we will, as to the method and timing and the necessity of baptism but I just
do not want to mislead anyone into thinking 'baptism' saves and if not baptized, yet, that
one would not experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, having already 'believed', and
as we are told in the Scriptures, 'sealed with the Holy Spirit' as the down-payment, as the
guarantee for our day of Redemption!
And, I also think, it denigrates the significance of the act of baptism to have to be baptized
everytime one changes church membership! Once is enough, for what the Lord was asking
us to do!
< Message edited by jfaye -- 3/29/2008 9:59:37 AM >
_____________________________
Thankfully His,
Janice
"We cannot appreciate God's mercy until we realize He is first the God of justice!"
"O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!"
Psalm 34:8
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/29/2008 12:05:40 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
I will say it again give me an EXACT verse with address of where I can see that CHristian Baptism is Spiritual and not physical.
What do you mean "again" ?!?!? You didn't ask that in the first place -- you simply asked where the Bible says baptism is spiritual and not physical. There are several verses that support spiritual baptism as opposed to physical baptism. I suggested where you should start looking. I gave you MORE than one verse, because I do not believe ANY belief should be based on ONE verse of scripture -- it should be based on sound doctrine.
Here's another one : 1 Cor 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
Clearly, it is the Spirit that baptizes us -- not man. It's a spiritual baptism, not a physical baptism.
And, "Christian baptism"??? Where is that in scripture??? Since you believe in basing your doctrine on ONE verse, give me the EXACT verse where I can see that "Christian baptism" is biblical and not man-made.
quote:
John talked about his need to decrease so Christ can Increase in reference to Water Baptism.
Give me an EXACT verse where I can see that Christ Himself baptized someone in water.
quote:
John's Disciples came to him and complained that Jesus' disciples were baptizing with WATER and John sid the MINISTRY of Jesus must increase.
Give me the EXACT verse where I can see that the MINISTRY of Jesus was water baptism. Its unfortunate that you are confusing the two -- the ministry of John was water baptism, not Jesus.
They didn't complaint that the disciples were baptizing with water, they complained that more people were following Christ than John.
You also left out an important detail of that passage: the ministry of John (water baptism) must decrease.
quote:
The Baptism of the Holy spirit does not preclude baptizing with water.
I never said it did. I simply said water baptism is not necessary.
quote:
If we move into Acts, Peter says these people have recieved the Holy Spirit what is stopping them from being Baptized with WATER!
Ah, yes ... Peter ... the guy who always understood Christ. The guy who didn't even understand why he was there until AFTER he was there. The guy who didn't even believe these Gentiles were able to receive the Spirit at all. The guy who, although God had already declared them clean, insisted they be made clean according to Jewish law. This is your go-to-guy to prove baptism is physical and not spiritual for Christians?
quote:
One does not preclude the other, that is why we Baptize not in the name of the Father or of the Son or of the Holy Spirit but of all three.
No you don't -- not biblically, anyway. Jesus's command to baptize was to immerse people in the name of the one and only triune God -- the son's name being the only name by which we can be saved -- NOT to immerse in water saying you are doing it in the name.
quote:
AGIN PLEASE GIVE ME AN EXACT SCRIPTURAL ADDRESS WHERE IT SAYS THAT WE RECIVE A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM AND FORFIT A PHYSICAL WATER BAPTISM.
No need to yell, preacherman. Just make up your mind what you want to request as you've changed your request twice. Now you want to see where physical water baptism is "forfeited".
I've already shown you that scripture says John's water baptism must cease.
Matt 3:11, "I am baptizing you with water as a token of repentance, but the one who is coming after me is stronger than I am, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. It is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/29/2008 1:12:14 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 327
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I will say this just for clarification because I am not trying to have an endless argument, but I see a misrepresentation going on that needs to be addressed.
I am neither suggesting that I "refuse" baptism or would tell anybody not to get baptized. Nor do I agree that it is an "act of obedience" as some put forth. I am only saying that if one does get baptized they should know that it simply a symbolic representation of what the Holy Spirit has already done to them. When you start making baptism a requirement you must go all the way and say that if someone doesn't, won't or can't get baptized, then they are not saved. Furthermore, I believe if one states that baptism is a required act than you have made it into a law. And a law is of no value without a penalty for violating it. Therefore, if you believe baptism is necessary you have to say that someone isn't saved, has lost their salvation or is danger of some other form of condemnation for violating that law. If you have the first act of obedience you must then have a second, a third and so on. That is legalism no matter how you spin it.
Salvation has nothing to do with water. It has everything to do with the Spirit. Man was spiritually dead and in need of life. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ He offered to restore that life to those who believe by "immersing" (baptizing) them with the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, there is a misunderstanding of the early church that I mentioned earlier. The first Christians, most of whom were Jews, bought over the practice of baptism into the early church. They believed that Gentiles needed to become Jews first before they could be saved. Thus, they water baptised them because Gentiles were thought to be unclean. But, when God showed Peter that even Gentiles were clean in His sight, he realized that they didn't need to be water baptised in order to receive the Holy Spirit.
"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." Acts 11: 15-18
A mistake many Christians make is assuming that the early Church understood everything right from the beginning. Thus, they take the historical recordings in Acts, of what took place with baptism, and make it into doctrine. And since they have been repeated for centuries and accepted by millions over that period they are elevated to the same level as Gospel and defended vigorously. Just like beliefs and practices we once held dear begin to fall off, or become less important, as we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, so it was with the early Church as we see here with Peter. Jesus may not have rebuked His disciples for water baptizing converts, but that doesn't mean He was endorsing it as necessary for salvation. He had bigger fish to fry, so to speak.
I don't presume to change anybody's mind. But, hopefully, we can all be clear about what we disagree on without throwing fellow Christians under the bus by suggesting they may not be saved or are being disobedient because they don't share our views on baptism. Those that know me, and have witnessed the changes in my life, are proof that it was the indwelling Holy Spirit working on me from the inside out, not my participation in, or lack thereof, a water baptism ceremony.
If we can't have agreement, I trust we can have clarity.
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
www.livinggodministries.net
http://96toLife.blogspot.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/29/2008 2:11:03 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 327
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jfaye, no worries. It wasn't so much your post as the cumulative amount of posts against my position. Also, the way I saw rileykins attacked by the so-called brethren disturbed me. I know when I write the things I do they won't be accepted by the average Christian because of religious traditions many hold so dear to their hearts, but they need to be said. I don't presume to be able to convince anybody of what I believe, but hope that somebody out their who sees these things will take them to the Lord in prayer and study and ask Him to reveal what is true regarding the role of baptism.
Grace and Peace.
_____________________________
www.livinggodministries.net
http://96toLife.blogspot.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 4:29:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
"Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Is this not a command?
Where is the water? Is "teaching all nations" the act of immersing them in water, or immersing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
While it doesn't happen often, wbn, I agree with you here :) There's no mention of "water" as there isn't in many other verses which speak of baptism.
The verse means to bring the Gospel to all nations so that some of those who hear will be "baptized" - by the Holy Spirit - the only baptism that saves.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 4:35:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Romans chapter 6...baptised into his death.
rileykins
Please stop skating the issue tell me where the Bible says that Baptism is spiritual and NOT physical.
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: -Luke 3:16
That is spiritual....or do you conclude that the "fire" mentioned is not spiritual?
quote:
Paul is quite clear that Baptism is the new circumsision and MUST be done as part of the faith. The problem with that requirement theory is that most of the Jews who were circumcised never did come to faith.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 6:32:03 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
Apparently the Apostle Paul saw baptism and grace as nearly synonymous because in Ephesians 2:1-7 he doesn't mention baptism, but in the parallel passage in Colossians, he doesn't mention grace, and yet he was purveying the same message.
It would have been more helpful if you had given the actualy passage in Col, so I could read them both to see what you are saying.
Sorry about that! I shared this with someone before and I thought it was you. In any case here it is again.
The parallel passages are Ephesians 2:1-11 and Colossians 2:11-13; 3:1-3
1. In both passages Paul says that sinners are dead in their sins (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13). In both passages Paul says that sinners are spiritually uncircumcised (Ephesians 2:11; Colossians 2:13)
2. In both passages Paul says that Christians have been made alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13). In both passages Paul says that Christians have been raised up with Christ (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 2:12). In both passages Paul says that Christians are seated above with Christ (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1-3). In both passages Paul says that Christians are spiritually circumcised (Ephesians 2:11; Colossians 2:11, 13).
3. In both passages Paul says that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished by God's work (Ephesians 2:10; Colossians 2:12). Only in the Ephesian passages does Paul says that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished by grace (Epehsians 2:8). In both passages Paul says that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished through faith (Ephesians 2:8; Colossians 2:12). Only in the Colossian passages does Paul say that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
Now, just because grace is not specifically mentioned in Colossians, would anyone dare to suggest that grace does not belong in the way of salvation depicted there? Surely the answer is no. The same applies to baptism in relation to the Ephesian passage. Even though it is not specifically mentioned, in view of the parallel we cannot deny that it is perfectly consistent with what is named there.
If we would allow ourselves to truly hear what the Bible acctually says about the meaning of baptism, we would not be able to resist the following conclusion: nothing is more consistent with salvation by grace than salvation in baptism.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 3/30/2008 6:38:56 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 6:48:11 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The verse means to bring the Gospel to all nations so that some of those who hear will be "baptized" - by the Holy Spirit - the only baptism that saves. The problem with that assertion is that the verse can't possibly mean that. Jesus is telling is disciples to go make disciples and the first thing he tells them to do in order to make disciples is to baptize them. It has to mean baptism in water, because I have yet to see or read about a mortal man baptizing another mortal man in the Holy Spirit. It just doesn't happen.
BTW, baptism in fire may be spiritual, but it is also physical, don't you think? Is there anywhere in scripture that says that Christian baptism is spiritual as opposed to physical?
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 3/30/2008 6:54:47 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 6:57:33 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Let me ask you - Thief on the Cross? Of if someone gets saved, minutes before death, minus water baptism, would you agree a person goes to heaven?Just Yes or No, please. And it it is Yes, then it is not a requirement. Not in a strict sense as in requirement to be born Again of Holy Spirit, without which noone enters heaven.
Yes, the thief on the cross was saved without baptism. But, of course, baptism for Christians didn't become a requirment until after Jesus ascended to heaven. If someone gets saved, minutes before death, then I'm sure that God will take them to heaven. But regardless of these exteme (hypothetical) circumstances, baptism is still required for salvation. While it may not be an absolute requirement like faith, it is, nevertheless a requirement under normal circumstances.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 3/30/2008 7:03:49 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 8:20:30 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7870
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It would have been more helpful if you had given the actualy passage in Col, so I could read them both to see what you are saying.
Sorry about that! I shared this with someone before and I thought it was you. In any case here it is again.
The parallel passages are Ephesians 2:1-11 and Colossians 2:11-13; 3:1-3
No problem. Been there myself! Thanks for the references.
quote:
Only in the Colossian passages does Paul say that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
It says, "having been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead."
Since you like to "see" water every time the word "baptism" is used, I can understand why you think that way. But I don't see water every time the word "baptism" is used. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was clearly distinguished from John's baptism with water. The "baptism" of Moses referred to in 1 Cor 10 was also a dry baptism. All dry baptisms are simply "identifications". I am convinced that Col 2:12 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, since v.12 follows v.11, which speaks of a "bloodless" circumcision, ie: "not done by the hands of men". This is figurative language. Just as Paul is clearly not speaking of a literal circumcision, he is also not speaking of literal immersion.
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If we would allow ourselves to truly hear what the Bible acctually says about the meaning of baptism, we would not be able to resist the following conclusion: nothing is more consistent with salvation by grace than salvation in baptism.
I have heard what the Bible says about the meaning of water baptism. It is a picture of our union with Christ, in His death, burial and resurrection. Through water baptism, we are "identified" with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection.
The gospel of John is purely evangelical in purpose, per 20:31. There is no suggestion at all of baptism being related to receiving eternal life. The only requirement is faith in Christ.
We are not saved in water baptism. We are saved in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/30/2008 10:38:42 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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Only in the Colossian passages does Paul say that the transition from sinner to Christian is accomplished in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
It says, "having been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead."
Since you like to "see" water every time the word "baptism" is used, I can understand why you think that way. But I don't see water every time the word "baptism" is used. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was clearly distinguished from John's baptism with water. The "baptism" of Moses referred to in 1 Cor 10 was also a dry baptism. All dry baptisms are simply "identifications". I am convinced that Col 2:12 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, since v.12 follows v.11, which speaks of a "bloodless" circumcision, ie: "not done by the hands of men". This is figurative language. Just as Paul is clearly not speaking of a literal circumcision, he is also not speaking of literal immersion.
I do not "see" water every time baptism is mentioned. However, I do "see" water every time the world baptism is used literally. In the Colossian passage there is no indication that the word "baptism" is being used in a figurative sense. The literal meaning of baptism always includes water. When we say baptism of the Holy Spirit, we're using the word "baptism" in a figurative sense. If there were no baptism in water, we wouldn't know what baptism in the Holy Spirit meant.
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If we would allow ourselves to truly hear what the Bible acctually says about the meaning of baptism, we would not be able to resist the following conclusion: nothing is more consistent with salvation by grace than salvation in baptism.
I have heard what the Bible says about the meaning of water baptism. It is a picture of our union with Christ, in His death, burial and resurrection. Through water baptism, we are "identified" with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection. I agree. Therefore, I also think that without baptism we remain ununified with Christ, unidentified with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.
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The gospel of John is purely evangelical in purpose, per 20:31. There is no suggestion at all of baptism being related to receiving eternal life. The only requirement is faith in Christ. There is also no suggestion in John of repentance being related to receiving eternal life, and yet I believe it is. If it's not mentioned by John doesn't mean that it's not necessary. John is not the only book in the Bible. John's purpose in writing His gospel obviously was not to convince people that they need to be baptized, although I'm sure, as an apostle, he recognized that need.
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We are not saved in water baptism. We are saved in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
We are saved in water baptism, because that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/31/2008 7:45:39 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7870
Joined: 12/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I do not "see" water every time baptism is mentioned. However, I do "see" water every time the world baptism is used literally. In the Colossian passage there is no indication that the word "baptism" is being used in a figurative sense. The literal meaning of baptism always includes water.
How about the Jews who were baptized into Moses? The word means to be "identified". Sometimes water is used and sometimes not. Spirit baptism does not include water. Jesus made that clear when He distinguished the baptism of the HS from John's baptism with water.
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When we say baptism of the Holy Spirit, we're using the word "baptism" in a figurative sense. If there were no baptism in water, we wouldn't know what baptism in the Holy Spirit meant.
No, it is a literal baptism. It is the water baptisms that are figurative, in representing the identification.
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The gospel of John is purely evangelical in purpose, per 20:31. There is no suggestion at all of baptism being related to receiving eternal life. The only requirement is faith in Christ. There is also no suggestion in John of repentance being related to receiving eternal life, and yet I believe it is.
For unbelievers to believe in Christ actually IS a change of mind, which is what repentance means. While John didn't use the word repentance, the concept is the same as believing. So your point is not taken about water baptism for eternal life. If water baptism was required, John failed.
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If it's not mentioned by John doesn't mean that it's not necessary. John is not the only book in the Bible. John's purpose in writing His gospel obviously was not to convince people that they need to be baptized, although I'm sure, as an apostle, he recognized that need.
For receiving eternal life, his book is complete. He simply failed to communicate if you are right. I would never accuse a writer of Scripture filled with the Holy Spirit of error or failure.
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We are not saved in water baptism. We are saved in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
We are saved in water baptism, because that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Well, we are at an impasse. You think the baptism of the Holy Spirit includes water, in spite of Jesus distinguishing that from John's baptism of water. I do not see any water involved in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I see no further point in discussion. We've both made our points, and we continue to differ.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/31/2008 2:00:03 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I do not "see" water every time baptism is mentioned. However, I do "see" water every time the world baptism is used literally. In the Colossian passage there is no indication that the word "baptism" is being used in a figurative sense. The literal meaning of baptism always includes water.
How about the Jews who were baptized into Moses? The word means to be "identified". Sometimes water is used and sometimes not. Spirit baptism does not include water. Jesus made that clear when He distinguished the baptism of the HS from John's baptism with water. The word "baptism" is being used figuratively when referring to the Jews who were baptized into Moses. What happened to them was literal of course, but the use of the word "baptism" is figurative. The word "baptism" in its Greek form was around long before the baptism of the Holy Spirit ever occurred. It always meant immersing something in water. Therefore, while it is certainly legitimate to use it to indicate immersion in other things, that would be a figurative use of the term.
And the fact that Jesus distinguished between John's baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with whether there's water in Christian baptism or not. What we experience as Christians when we are baptized in water is not John's baptism.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/31/2008 2:06:06 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1183
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
For unbelievers to believe in Christ actually IS a change of mind, which is what repentance means. While John didn't use the word repentance, the concept is the same as believing. So your point is not taken about water baptism for eternal life. If water baptism was required, John failed.
You think John failed? Just because he didn't mentioned baptism doesn't mean that he didn't believe it. I think John was an eminent success in what he set out to do in writing his gospel. Obviously baptism didn't fit the purpose of why he wrote it. That doesn't mean that by leaving baptism out John was failing or trying to imply that baptism wasn't necessary. See, even though John didn't mention repentence, since there are those who believe it's necessary, they can spin it so that it's not important that John didn't mention it.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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It definitely was not my intention to do that!!! 
