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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 1:23:06 AM
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ThursdaysChild
Posts: 342
Joined: 1/18/2006
From: The Arabian Gulf
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quote:
ORIGINAL: purejoy
Would you say that losing your salvation and rejecting your salvation are the same thing? Or would you also say it's impossible to truly reject your salvation?
That's something I've always struggle with as far as once saved always saved. If we have free will, don't we have the free will to also reject our salvation later on?
Reject as in making a conscious decision that that is NOT what you believe or want to follow any more. Not as in sin or have a stale period in your spiritual walk.
Just curious as to all of your thoughts...
Rejecting would be becoming an atheist, converting to another religion (such as Islam, or Buddhism, etc.). In order to become any of those things you have to reject Christ. If, however, you allow the Holy Spirit to bring you back, than you are saved. But during that time, you are unsaved because you have rejected Christ. If you died during that time, you'd have no hope of heaven.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that every morning when your feet hit the floor...Satan shudders and says..."Oh No...she's AWAKE!"
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 2:53:22 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: purejoy
That's something I've always struggle with as far as once saved always saved. If we have free will, don't we have the free will to also reject our salvation later on?
I'd say no. To me, that gives us way too much power. My salvation depends on Christ, not on me.
And I believe He will hold me fast and never let me go.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 2:56:29 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ThursdaysChild
Rejecting would be becoming an atheist, converting to another religion (such as Islam, or Buddhism, etc.). In order to become any of those things you have to reject Christ. If, however, you allow the Holy Spirit to bring you back, than you are saved. But during that time, you are unsaved because you have rejected Christ. If you died during that time, you'd have no hope of heaven.
You see, I don't agree with that at all. I believe that once Christ takes a hold of us, we are His. We may get into heaven by the skin of our teeth (as one escaping through the flames) but we are still safe, no matter what.
1 Corinthians 3 v 12-15:
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 6:59:10 AM
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magdaleine
Posts: 5158
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Thanks Maggie for looking it up for me. I wonder what he would say to that, or what you say to a Christian who no longer even believes in the Bible though?
I don't think throwing verses at people really makes a difference. Someone who has stopped believing the Bible isn't likely to be swayed by such a verse. When it was brought to my attention, I was at the point of decision and it came in the context of several hours of my friend pleading with me to choose Jesus. She also knew that my commitment to God was strong, even though it was wavering that evening.
Re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
Look at the context in which Jesus talks about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:22-37 Jesus has just driven an evil spirit out of a man and the Pharisees come along and accuse him of using the power of Satan (Beelzebub) to do this, not realizing that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that he did it.
Jesus talks about the ludicrousness of Satan driving out Satan and says, essentially, that the kingdom of God has come upon them because he drives out demons by the Spirit of God. THEN he gives this "famous" verse:
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (verses 31, 32)
They had seen the power of the Holy Spirit through Jesus and called that Spirit Satanic. THAT is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is and what is unforgiveable.
_____________________________
Maggie
Ask me about my book. It's now available online!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 7:23:49 AM
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nicole6598
Posts: 4074
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Australia
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On salvation- I don't believe once saved always saved. I don't think you can accept Jesus' offer, turn around and denounce him or convert to another religion and then think you will enter Heaven. I am not sure if you would repent if you would be ok or not. But from what that verse in Hebrews says, and my interpetation of it I don't think you can be saved again.
_____________________________
Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 10:56:37 AM
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KatMack
Posts: 1038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
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quote:
On salvation- I don't believe once saved always saved. I don't think you can accept Jesus' offer, turn around and denounce him or convert to another religion and then think you will enter Heaven. I am not sure if you would repent if you would be ok or not. But from what that verse in Hebrews says, and my interpretation of it I don't think you can be saved again.
Well, then, according to your interpretation, I guess I won't be meeting you in heaven after all, Nicole. I accepted Christ whole-heartedly as a child, lived for Him until my late teens, but then totally rejected Him. I was a declared agnostic who thought that Jesus was only a story that worked for the Christians, but was definitely not the only way. I dabbled in the occult, Transcendental Meditation, contemplated joining a Unitarian Universalist church and on and on and on.
At the ripe ol' age of 24, after 6 years of turning my back on Christ, He blessed me with my first son. As you know, Marshall was born with severe medical concerns and I was confronted with my own weakness and hopelessness. Through the love of my family and those around me, I realized that a life lived in Christ was the answer and gave my heart to Him again.
I'm not sure I know yet what the Hebrews passage fully means. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue of eternal security (and I'm a Southern Baptist too!  ) I grieve the time I spent away from Him and the hurt and pain my rejection caused Him but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I AM a child of God.
Please know that I'm not attacking you, Nicole, but when we make declerations like someone can't be saved again, there are real people that you know that fall into that category.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 11:32:14 AM
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magdaleine
Posts: 5158
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Ezekiel 18:21-32 helps to shed some light on this, I think. He's very clear that if a wicked man turns from his wickedness, he will live. I believe we need to be aware of what that passage in Hebrews says, but at the same time remembering that there are aspects of that passage that we don't understand, such as at what point in a person's life does this apply. It's a good thing too, because we don't know people's hearts like God does. I guess my thought is to take it as a warning for myself but to be careful to avoid applying it to anyone else since I really don't know what God knows about that person.
_____________________________
Maggie
Ask me about my book. It's now available online!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 11:35:45 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
At the ripe ol' age of 24, after 6 years of turning my back on Christ, He blessed me with my first son. As you know, Marshall was born with severe medical concerns and I was confronted with my own weakness and hopelessness. Through the love of my family and those around me, I realized that a life lived in Christ was the answer and gave my heart to Him again.
I'm not sure I know yet what the Hebrews passage fully means. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue of eternal security (and I'm a Southern Baptist too! ) I grieve the time I spent away from Him and the hurt and pain my rejection caused Him but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I AM a child of God.
What a wonderful testimony!!
I personally believe that the Lord NEVER let go of you, stayed by your side, kept whispering to you to draw you back - until you did come back. That's what I believe happens when Christians "stray", that the Good Shepherd keeps looking for the lost sheep, and the loving Father is waiting patiently for the prodigal son/daughter to come home again.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 11:59:49 AM
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magdaleine
Posts: 5158
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Let me quote Sideways:
"I really like Manda's perspective on this issue."
Sideways, September 2008
_____________________________
Maggie
Ask me about my book. It's now available online!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 12:15:47 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
For those of you who do believe in OSAS do you believe that say Joe Christian who accepts Jesus at say age 10 and then at age 20 decides he is much more interested in partying and sleeping around and drugs and a completely hedonistic lifestyle and lives that way for the rest of his life, do you believe he is still saved? Please, I'm honestly curious, I don't have much experience with once saved always saved.
If the original conversion was genuine, then I believe yes, in theory. HOWEVER, I also believe that if someone was genuinely converted, they won't be able to keep living a sinful life, that they will in time be convicted about what they are doing and allow themselves to be drawn back to Christ.
As I posted earlier:
quote:
I believe that once Christ takes a hold of us, we are His. We may get into heaven by the skin of our teeth (as one escaping through the flames) but we are still safe, no matter what. 1 Corinthians 3 v 12-15: "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 12:26:03 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10420
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
quote:
On salvation- I don't believe once saved always saved. I don't think you can accept Jesus' offer, turn around and denounce him or convert to another religion and then think you will enter Heaven. I am not sure if you would repent if you would be ok or not. But from what that verse in Hebrews says, and my interpretation of it I don't think you can be saved again.
Well, then, according to your interpretation, I guess I won't be meeting you in heaven after all, Nicole. I accepted Christ whole-heartedly as a child, lived for Him until my late teens, but then totally rejected Him. I was a declared agnostic who thought that Jesus was only a story that worked for the Christians, but was definitely not the only way. I dabbled in the occult, Transcendental Meditation, contemplated joining a Unitarian Universalist church and on and on and on.
At the ripe ol' age of 24, after 6 years of turning my back on Christ, He blessed me with my first son. As you know, Marshall was born with severe medical concerns and I was confronted with my own weakness and hopelessness. Through the love of my family and those around me, I realized that a life lived in Christ was the answer and gave my heart to Him again.
I'm not sure I know yet what the Hebrews passage fully means. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue of eternal security (and I'm a Southern Baptist too! ) I grieve the time I spent away from Him and the hurt and pain my rejection caused Him but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I AM a child of God.
Please know that I'm not attacking you, Nicole, but when we make declerations like someone can't be saved again, there are real people that you know that fall into that category.
--Kat
I'm right there with you, Kat, and even with a similar testimony of my medically fragile firstborn being used by God to bring me back to Himself.
God is good.
I believe that as long as there is LIFE, there is HOPE. As long as someone is breathing, they can turn and repent of their sin and come to God. I don't think we can ever go too far away that we can't come back to God.
However, sin has this ability to harden our hearts. I think if we continually sin, there may come a point where our hearts are so hardened against God that we may never come back.
After seeing a brother and sister who were both saved and baptized as children, who now defile the name of the Lord, I'm not sure where I stand on "once saved always saved". I do know that if they are still saved, that it grieves God's heart to see them walking in sin and darkness. He has so much more for them. 
_____________________________
<<-----------Brian + vacuum= sexy man!! 
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 2:55:22 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5070
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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Kat and Donna, I'm right up there with ya'll. But I think it was more getting pregnant and miscarrying, along with Micah's deployment that drug me back to the foot of the cross.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 3:05:44 PM
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pumpkin
Posts: 1443
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: home
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my grandma and grandpa went to a Baptist church. They seemed to believe all that the baptists did. They sounded genuine. Grandpa died first, and then Grandma couldn't get out to go to church, and the *only* church that would come to visit her were the jehovah's witnesses. She was very ill toward the end, but she would send us pages long letters, most of which was (copied in her own handwriting) pure "theology" from the jehovah's witnesses. Then she would usually have a paragraph or two (of a sometimes 4 pg. or more letter) of personal items... like I love you, how are you, etc...
When she died, I was confused about whether or not she would go to heaven. I asked my mom and dad (dad's mom was the grandma referred to above) and my pastor. I had many conversations, because I really didn't want to believe that she wouldn't be in heaven. Sadly, I truly don't think she's in heaven, although I would be thrilled beyond belief if she were.
The reason for my confusion is that she had said that she was a baptist, and had been baptized, and had been saved. Then she changed and went with the jehovah's witnesses instead. The best explanation that I have heard is, "perhaps she was never genuinely saved in the first place and that's how she could turn her back on all that she had believed before."
It's very sad, and in fact, heart breaking... but that's basically what I believe on the issue. She must not have been genuinely saved.
I was saved at a very very young age, and it was as genuine as it could possibly have been for anyone. I could never ever do what she did, and I don't understand it... and it just makes me sad.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 5:21:00 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6963
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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I think you can loose your salvation, but I don't think it happens as easily as some say it does.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 5:52:30 PM
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purejoy
Posts: 883
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pumpkin
The best explanation that I have heard is, "perhaps she was never genuinely saved in the first place and that's how she could turn her back on all that she had believed before."
That is the thought process I have heard in regards to OSAS...that if someone does turn their back, it's because they weren't really saved to begin with.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I think you can loose your salvation, but I don't think it happens as easily as some say it does.
I think I would probably say I agree with this. To me, if you can't consciously choose to walk away from the Lord and reject salvation, that's taking away our free will. Which to me is a huge aspect of God's loving graciousness.
Hmmm...
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 6:05:13 PM
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nicole6598
Posts: 4074
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
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Thanks Chelsea, you are right, I wasn't meaning it the way Kat said, I did say " I didn't know what it meant if you repent". I don't have an opinion on that, but I do believe or have been taught that if you were to die whilst you were "turned" from God then you wouldn't enter Heaven.
Kat I think your story is wonderful and it gives me hope for my friends husband!!
_____________________________
Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 7:02:44 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6963
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: purejoy
quote:
ORIGINAL: pumpkin
The best explanation that I have heard is, "perhaps she was never genuinely saved in the first place and that's how she could turn her back on all that she had believed before."
That is the thought process I have heard in regards to OSAS...that if someone does turn their back, it's because they weren't really saved to begin with.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I think you can loose your salvation, but I don't think it happens as easily as some say it does.
I think I would probably say I agree with this. To me, if you can't consciously choose to walk away from the Lord and reject salvation, that's taking away our free will. Which to me is a huge aspect of God's loving graciousness.
Hmmm...
I agree!
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 7:35:03 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InBetweenDreams
I personally don't think that a saved person who denies God and dies that way would go to heaven.
How would any of us know someone's standing before God when they died? How would we know if they died "that way"?
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 9/17/2008 7:42:57 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6022
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InBetweenDreams
I mean like they died denying God still and didn't have a change or heart whatsoever. Like they died saying and feeling boooo God.
But, unless they said that out loud, we wouldn't know.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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