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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 9:50:07 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyichigo
Although my dad suffered from manic depression, he loved Jesus Christ with all his heart. He was a very godly man. I believe he was forgiven for what he had done. I really wished more people talked to us about what had happened and helped us through the grieving.
I believe you are entirely right. Only the cold-hearted, simplistic, or ones who have never been close to a person with bipolar disorder could understand differently. Sadly, I speak from experience as one who was ignorant and judgmental toward all suicides. The Lord had to get me up-close-and-personal with it before I began to see how stupid I had been.
A chemical imbalance in the brain is not a sin.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 10:55:13 AM
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moon_mouse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
A chemical imbalance in the brain is not a sin.
Absolutely! One of the most basic drives in any living thing is the desire to survive. If someone is so distraught or hopeless that the will to survive is overcome, how can that be anything but some malfunction in the system? God wouldn't condemn someone for dying of cancer or a heart attack. Why would He condemn someone for having a chemical imbalance or other malfunction of the systems that allow us to make decisions?
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[Deleted] - 2/15/2008 10:58:54 AM
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 11:46:06 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyichigo
Although my dad suffered from manic depression, he loved Jesus Christ with all his heart. He was a very godly man. I believe he was forgiven for what he had done. I really wished more people talked to us about what had happened and helped us through the grieving.
I believe you are entirely right. Only the cold-hearted, simplistic, or ones who have never been close to a person with bipolar disorder could understand differently. Sadly, I speak from experience as one who was ignorant and judgmental toward all suicides. The Lord had to get me up-close-and-personal with it before I began to see how stupid I had been.
A chemical imbalance in the brain is not a sin.
Thanks, Jimbo. The number of suicides that happen due to severe depression and/or bipolar disorder is indeed high. I have to agree with you.
I've actually been impressed with the thoughtful responses for far on this thread. I must be getting jaded in my old age - I didn't expect it. Thanks all for the reminder that there are reasonable people around! To those of you who have experienced loss in this manner, I have to say that like Jimbo I was fairly dense on this issue until the father of a friend passed away this summer. Watching him go through that tore me up. My in-laws are struggling with this as well currently as a close friend recently took his life. I wish they could see this in the same light as Jimbo and the rest of you.
BT
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 2:40:09 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6954
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pjforhim
As someone whose husband completed suicide almost three years ago I would like to say that I truly appreciated seeing this post and the thoughtful answers.
As to what to say to someone-please try to treat it as any other death- we loved these people. It seems that no one wants to talk about the deceased because their whole life has now been defined by this one act. Please do not ask if they left a note or ask why they did it or tell their children that their father will not go to heaven.
Try as much as possible to treat this as any other kind of death where you would tell the family that you will miss this person or remember something about their life that touched you.
Most people don't know what to say to anyone after a death in the family but in the case of a suicide they can't seem to get past the word itself so they shy away even more, as if they can't even tell the family they are sorry this has happened.
To the family who is already reeling, this silence from friends and neighbors is more of a condemnation- because in most families of completed suicide, in the beginning,we all feel that it is our fault somehow. So please, say something, anything, but the silence can be deafening.
As to whether or not suicide is forgiven- my lord is the God of love- he even loves people who suffer from clinical depression- and they love him.
And through His grace we survive.
Excellent post and I'm very sorry about your loss.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 6:02:31 PM
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schupfNoodle
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I wouldn't just write it off as chemical imbalance. I believe in medication and also that in the presence of God is fullness of joy. And if one is suffering severe depression he needs prayer, prayer worship and prayer. Fasting and prayer with other believers. It's warfare.
I had suicidal tendencies before. I'm very sane though. I tried to attempt many times, but I wasn't brave enough. It took somebody to pray with me and it was broken. I still have to fight my thougts but I don't think of killing myself anymore, just thoughts of what if I died.
One has to be totally without hope to kill himself. In Jesus we have hope.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/15/2008 8:44:34 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 559
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In response to this quote:
quote:
One has to be totally without hope to kill himself. In Jesus we have hope.
My dad was first diagnosed with manic depression when I was 8 years old. I remember my dad going to a Christian psychiatrist and him taking medication for it. I remember him praying day and night, crying out to God. I remember my mother praying with and for him. I remember the day he told me he wanted to kill himself, and not just himself, he was thinking about taking the whole family with him. I remember the day the Lord delivered him. He was full of joy. He was literally rejoicing, dancing. No one could wipe the smile off his face. He told us that he had shut himself alone in the closet, got down on his knees and cried out for God to take him, and then all of a sudden he was filled with joy, and felt so light as if a heavy burden had been lifted off his shoulders.
10 years after that, I remember my dad calling my mom from work telling her that he couldn’t do it anymore. I saw him dragging his feet toward the house with such a distraught look on his face as if he had the whole world on his shoulders. For 3 days straight my mother prayed over him. She asked my dad to pray also, but my dad couldn’t do it physically so she asked him to pray in the spirit. My dad would fall asleep peacefully while she prayed over him. And when she stopped he would wake up sobbing and in agony. We all laid our hands on him prayed over him for the Lord to give him peace and to make him whole again. My mom suspected that he may have relapsed into depression. She made an appointment with the same psychiatrist that treated my dad 10 years ago. We continued to pray for him as a family.
On the day of his doctor’s appointment, surprisingly my dad was out of bed. He wasn’t crying or sobbing uncontrollabley. I remember him singing a hymn, “It Is Well With My Soul.” It was a Monday, on May 5, 1997. The last time I saw him was before I left for school. I saw him in the garage doing something. The garage door was closed with just enough room to crouch and walk under. I called out to him and he came out to see what I had to tell him. After telling him that I was going to school I saw him go back in the garage. My mom had to run an errand so she was not home. Everyone else had to be at school too. I got home that evening at 7:30 PM and found out that he had died by hanging himself in the garage. My younger twin brothers who were in 5th grade at the time were the ones that discovered him. The older of the twins cut the rope that my dad was hanging from with some hedge clippers, and the younger one went to the neighbor’s house to call 911. My mother said when she saw his face before the coroner took his body away, he looked relieved and at peace, not like in agony like the times when my mother had to rest from praying over him because of exhaustion. I don't know if facial expressions post-mortem have anything to do with the state of people's soul at the time of death. It could be just that the facial muscles of the descendant relaxes upon death.
We found a note in his brief case. It said something to the effect that he didn’t want to cause any more trouble for the family. He told us keep our faith in Christ and asked us to please forgive him for all the trouble, and to take care of ourselves.
I believe my dad did have hope. I think his hope was that when he died he would be with His Father in Heaven, in Paradise, where there is no suffering. In reading the note he left, I believe he just didn't want to suffer anymore and didn’t want to drag us with him in his suffering. I think, (though this was rather selfish of him) that he just hastily wanted to be with Jesus and be eternally at peace. He may lost the desire to live here on earth because of his mental anguish, but I think he held on to hope of eternal life with Christ in Heaven.
...but then all this is not what the OP is asking about.
_____________________________
Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/17/2008 7:03:00 PM
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pjforhim
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ladyichigo, how brave you are for sharing your story with us. Bless you.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/17/2008 7:52:41 PM
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jbow
Posts: 772
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If salvation is contingent on perfection and works at the moment of death, then not only is suicide unforgiven, but the rest of us are also doomed.
If, however, Jesus does indeed give us eternal life by grace through faith, then His blood covers our sin. We can then say with the writer of The Solid Rock, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness."
Besides, most, if not all, suicides are done by people suffering severe mental illness. It takes a pretty cold heart to think God would hold someone truly not themselves to a standard of sinlessness at death as someone who is rational.
Very good Jimbo...
We are either secure in Christ or we are not. We are either saved by grace or what we do or don't do. We are, in fact, secure in Christ and we are saved, if in fact we are saved, by faith in Christ's completed work on the cross, on our behalf. None of us are yet perfected. We bear about a "body of death" and we will only be relieved of it by the death of our body. As long as we live this life indwelling sin will be our constant companion and we will day by day either mortify the misdeeds of the body or we will sin. Sometimes we win, sometimes sin wins but the condemning power of sin has already been defeated by Jesus and His death on the cross.
All the holiness we attempt in this life is tainted in some measure by indwelling sin yet... we are holy in Him
Sin, though it may at times trip us up, does not condemn us... no sin condemns us. Repentance is a way of life. Our life is according to the Spirit and we have now, at this time, eternal life. Our life is hid with God in Christ. I would be quite comfortable with the premise that a person who take's his or her own life is not in a healthy or sane state of mind but is rather under severe attack by the enemy and indwelling sin. Jesus has defeated indwelling sin... yet still it remains, still it is active, still it is EVER PRESENT but GOD...
So we are not saved by our acts of righteousness nor are we condemned by our sin. We are saved by grace.
Romans 8:13 "If you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body you shall live".
Sin can lead to death and indeed, we all shall die, but some would live longer and certainly more abundantly if we by the Spirit did kill sin... still this is not eternal death, else none of us has any hope for we all sin.
Have faith in God.
"Be killing sin or sin will be killing you" John Owen
I cannot imagine a greater pain than one that might drive one to take their own life but I know One who understands our pain and Who is compassionate and full of mercy, Who will wipe away our tears, Who does not toss us out because we become mixed up or because we lose our way. He is the Great Shepherd Who lose's none of those for whom He care's. Suicide is not rejection of Christ, it is rejection of self, it is a defeat by the enemy but not an ultimate defeat for our Lord has already won the ultimate victory.
Julien
< Message edited by jbow -- 2/17/2008 8:50:17 PM >
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/17/2008 7:54:10 PM
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hoppersfan
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When I was a young child, I posed this same question to my mother. I asked her if my grandmother (who had taken her own life before I was born) was in Heaven. She explained to me that my grandmother had serious mental health issues, and she didn't feel that God would hold her illness against her. I totally agree. She didn't ask to be sick. She didn't enjoy being sick. Why should I believe that she is now in Hell, being punished for being mentally ill? I don't believe it.
God bless all of you whose lives have been affected by suicide.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/18/2008 9:39:49 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6954
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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I never known a person to attempt suicide who wasn't at least temporarily mentally ill.
Does God view all illnesses the same, or does He view mental illness somehow differently?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/18/2008 9:49:37 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9474
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
I cannot imagine a greater pain than one that might drive one to take their own life but I know One who understands our pain and Who is compassionate and full of mercy, Who will wipe away our tears, Who does not toss us out because we become mixed up or because we lose our way. He is the Great Shepherd Who lose's none of those for whom He care's. Suicide is not rejection of Christ, it is rejection of self, it is a defeat by the enemy but not an ultimate defeat for our Lord has already won the ultimate victory.
This needed repeating.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/18/2008 10:28:36 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbie_girl
I never known a person to attempt suicide who wasn't at least temporarily mentally ill.
Does God view all illnesses the same, or does He view mental illness somehow differently?
I'm probably the least qualified to state opinions about the mind of God. Nonetheless, I'll give it a shot.
I think any illness that impacts one's ability to make rational, informed choices would have to be viewed a bit differently. Not only classic mental illness, but also extreme chronic pain or severe abuse can wear away one's emotional capacity and personal resiliance to the point where right appears wrong and wrong appears right.
I always have to keep in mind that God is just, but he is also merciful and good.
BT
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/19/2008 3:25:26 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
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From: The higher lowcountry
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So, after reading through all the responses, is there a general consensus that IF a Christian commits suicide, they MUST be mentally ill? 
Because after all, once someone receives Christ, their life is so much easier. Almost disney-esque in style. A Christian can't possibly respond in a sinful manner once they've been saved...
While I can possibly agree that depression might lead to suicide - I can't agree that every suicide can be blamed on depression. In fact, I don't know why we must place blame at all.
My grandfather committed suicide in 1982 - he was riddled with cancer and doctors would do nothing.
One of my good friends committed suicide in the last couple years...she had lupus and she would not ask for help because she didn't want anyone's pity.
Another friend of my husbands...came home from a great day at work, looking to spend a quiet and romantic evening with his new wife - walked in on her in the act of adultary. He took his own life the next morning.
What are we to do? We are to walk with one another, grieve, cry, laugh and hug one another.
We should also remember that the pain of loss has no time-frame and many people feel a real weight for many years. Those of us left behind after suicide will always have a date or an image or a smell that will trigger our memories.
We need our brothers/sisters in Christ to love us long after our losses.
_____________________________
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/19/2008 3:32:03 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
So, after reading through all the responses, is there a general consensus that IF a Christian commits suicide, they MUST be mentally ill?
No, at least that would not be my opinion. I think there are a host of reasons that might push someone toward that action. Depression or other medical disorders are among them, but I'm sure there are others.
quote:
What are we to do? We are to walk with one another, grieve, cry, laugh and hug one another.
We should also remember that the pain of loss has no time-frame and many people feel a real weight for many years. Those of us left behind after suicide will always have a date or an image or a smell that will trigger our memories.
We need our brothers/sisters in Christ to love us long after our losses.
This sounds like the consensus here so far, and I am pleased, even surprised at the graciousness of the responses.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/19/2008 3:56:21 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 559
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Honolulu
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quote:
Suicide is not rejection of Christ, it is rejection of self, it is a defeat by the enemy but not an ultimate defeat for our Lord has already won the ultimate victory.
I sincerely thank you for this.
_____________________________
Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/20/2008 5:15:54 PM
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Fisherman02452
Posts: 3
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Well, I guess he or she will find out when they get there if they commit such an act, we'll never know.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/20/2008 5:18:24 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6198
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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If you're a born-again believer you are His and He is yours. Suicide can be brought on by a multitude of reasons and not all of them are due to mental illness.
A certain mixture of legal/prescribed medications can even bring us to a moment of despair and lack of control. Suicide being an unforgivable/mortal sin, etc.. is more akin to Catholic dogma and not biblically based.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 2/20/2008 8:30:24 PM
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jkdjr25
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From: Michigan
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I think suicide is forgiven.
I've contemplated it myself numerous times in my life starting when I was seven years old. Loneliness and depression are terrible things. I've felt alone many times, many times even in church.
I truly believe that suicide is forgiven. I believe it from the depths of my soul.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 3/13/2008 2:43:51 AM
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Jeremiah2913
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Here is something to think about....Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins..at the time he died on the cross, how many of those sins were commited by you? none, you were not born yet. so if Christ died for all our sins, which had not been commited yet, because when he died on the cross, we were not even born yet, is it possible that people that take their own life are forgiven? just a thought.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 3/13/2008 12:30:10 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6954
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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I don't think I've ever considered that before, Jeremiah.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 3/13/2008 2:49:18 PM
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noblesinger
Posts: 875
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From: "Almost Heaven"
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On December 2, 1977, my father committed suicide. He shot himself in the temple with a small handgun he'd brought back from Argentina after serving there with the Army COE following WWII. He had suffered a heart attack in June of that year, and during his treatment, the doctors discovered hardening of the arteries as well as a congenital heart defect that went undiscovered during his Army physical. Hardly a day goes by that I don't think of my Dad, who was my best friend. I miss him dearly, but I believe that I will see him again when I reach Heaven. I have a deep-seated assurance in my soul of that fact. Don't ask me to explain it - I just know it. Talking about Dad's suicide has become therapy for me; in fact, it greatly aided me in my healing process. Although it took 5 years, God still healed me of the heartache and anger that came as a result of what happened.
A woman once said, in my mother's presence, that anyone who killed themself was doomed to hell. Needless to say, Mom was heartbroken over this, but she was also angered enough to tell the woman what Dad had done and that she needed to find a little bit of compassion & forgiveness in her heart. The woman was flabbergasted into a stuttering fit; she never did apologize to Mom for her comments. So, schupfNoodle, I would ask you to maybe tone down your attitude a little. My Dad was a Christian, but he was alone at the time and the physical problem (not to mention some oppression) got to him. I applaud you and praise God for the fact that you have not gone that far, but don't forget that some us have not been that fortunate.
Duane
_____________________________
"...the worth and excellency of a soul is to be measured by the object of its love." - Henry Scougal, The Life of God in the Soul of Man
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 3/13/2008 3:38:23 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6954
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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noblesinger- thank you for so bravely sharing about your father. I'm sorry for all the pain that your family has had to go through.
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