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RE: 153 fish - 1/17/2008 7:47:48 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Since it was rent for all of us; aren't we included too? For it is written: Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
And there are a lot of doctrinally horrific books out there for those that must feel the need to spiritualize every single text of Scripture.
Not to mention all the hidden codes... If such nonsense were all true, it would be like the time before Jesus' incarnation when people were at the mercy of the priests, only now it's folks with "revelatory gifts." Oddly, I can't remember reading that the veil in the Temple was un-rent when Jesus ascended.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/17/2008 7:56:56 PM >
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RE: 153 fish - 1/17/2008 7:48:48 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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LOL!! Good point, but it is mentioned in the Word of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Maybe it just means 153 fish....
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RE: 153 fish - 1/17/2008 8:40:32 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2388
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.
I think that the Word of God is living and active; sharper than any double-edged sword, dividing between joints and marrow.
I think that God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
Yes, of course the Word of God is living and active. Doesn't mean that every single number mentioned has some hidden meaning that we need super computers to try and calculate.
quote:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
I am not sure quite why you posted these Scriptures. It appears that you think that since I say that 153 fish may just mean 153 fish, that I do not subject myself to the Spirit of God and live in foolishness. Did I assess that properly?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 12:25:51 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! I did not mean to insinuate that you were foolish in any way. This is what Scripture says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.
I think that the Word of God is living and active; sharper than any double-edged sword, dividing between joints and marrow.
I think that God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
Yes, of course the Word of God is living and active. Doesn't mean that every single number mentioned has some hidden meaning that we need super computers to try and calculate.
quote:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
I am not sure quite why you posted these Scriptures. It appears that you think that since I say that 153 fish may just mean 153 fish, that I do not subject myself to the Spirit of God and live in foolishness. Did I assess that properly?
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 12:37:30 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! I did not mean to insinuate that you were foolish in any way. This is what Scripture says.
I know it's what the Scriptures say. However, the Scriptures don't say that this was the context to be delivering it. You did.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 12:47:16 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Thank you for posting, though. I just listed a Scripture; that was all.
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
I would never think that you would not want to consider yourself a spiritual man; therefore your judgment is that the numbers written in the Prophets mean nothing to you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! I did not mean to insinuate that you were foolish in any way. This is what Scripture says.
I know it's what the Scriptures say. However, the Scriptures don't say that this was the context to be delivering it. You did.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/18/2008 12:54:25 AM >
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 9:29:24 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3126
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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While I don't know if the actual number (153) numerologically speaking, means anything, I do think a point was being made by using it.
If we go back to Mark 5, there is a similar story where we see: 1) a lack of faith on Peter's part, 2) that the net broke because there was such "a great number of fish," and 3) that Jesus used this incident as an analogy to call the disciples to be "fishers of men"...
1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, 2 and saw two boats standing by the lake; but the fishermen had gone from them and were washing their nets. 3 Then He got into one of the boats, which was Simon's, and asked him to put out a little from the land. And He sat down and taught the multitudes from the boat. 4 When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, "Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch." 5 But Simon answered and said to Him, "Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net." 6 And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking. 7 So they signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!" 9 For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men." 11 So when they had brought their boats to land, they forsook all and followed Him.
If we compare this to the similar story in John 21 (when Jesus appeared after His death on the cross), we see that, 1) There was no doubting because the minute Jesus said "cast the net' they recognized it was Him because that's what He said back in Mark, 2) they didn't argue this time, and 3) the net didn't break...
4 But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them, "Children, have you any food?" They answered Him, "No." 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish. 7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it), and plunged into the sea. 8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish. 9 Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish which you have just caught." 11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.
The specific number (153) may be significant because a lesser amount of fish broke the net back in Mark which is a testimony to Jesus' power after death, but I also think that because they didn't doubt, Jesus allowed the fish to stay in the net... which relates to them now being spiritually ready to be "fishers of men" and the Lord's assurance that because there was no longer doubting and their faith was firm, the "men" they now caught would stay in the net.
Hope I didn't get to carried away, but that's what I see. 
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 10:12:29 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Isaiah 15:3 may hold the key to understanding this:
In their streets they have girded themselves with sackcloth;
On their housetops and in their squares
Everyone is wailing, dissolved in tears.
or maybe Psalm 15:3
He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend
Or not...
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 10:23:46 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3587
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Hope I didn't get to carried away, but that's what I see.
Makes purty gud cents to me.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 11:02:16 AM
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MattJones
Posts: 19
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Kat_D, you apparently are wise beyond your years. The connection between John 21 and Mark has always fascinated me, and I suspect you are on to something.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 12:33:12 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MattJones
Kat_D, you apparently are wise beyond your years. The connection between John 21 and Mark has always fascinated me, and I suspect you are on to something.
MattJones, You are an encourager! A much needed breath of fresh air to these forums 
_____________________________
~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 1:46:16 PM
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manwe
Posts: 199
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Thanks for the replies so far.
I understand not all numbers in the Bible have symbological significance – yet we know in some cases they do. And in particular in the Johannine corpus we see a lot of it, especially in the Apocalypse. For example 7 seems to represent completion and totality and in the Revelation we see three different visions of 7 trumpets and 7 bowls and 7 vials – indicating the totality of judgment and its completion. This leads to the number of the beast 666 – indicating a false trinity, the 144,000 representing the whole of all believers who witness to Jesus in the end-times, the 2 witness supporting the need for 2 or more witness to make accusations, and so on.
So, I think it is fair to consider the possibility that in this particular instance or CONTEXT, John 21:11, the number 153 has symbological significance.
One modern resource to consider this further is in Richard Bauckham’s recent work The Testimony of the Beloved Disciple: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John, (Baker Academic, 2007).
Now before you all get your pants in a wad…
One possibility is to consider the role of Hebrew Gematria (a valid mode of Jewish interpretation - John was Jewish and frequently utilized Jewish hermeneutics when he composed the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse). Gematria involves the calculation of the numerical value of a word written in Hebrew or Greek letters (each Hebrew and Greek letter also has a corresponding number - they did not utilize roman numerals). There is also a technique that involves the measurement of sections of text by counting syllables or words. Or a combination.
153 is a triangular number – the triangle of 17. Support for this is in Ezekiel 47:10 (MT) where two words “Gedi” and “Egliam” also have the numerical value of 153, the triangle of 17. This passage tells of how he stream that will issue from the new Temple will flow down to the Dead Sea turning it into a fresh water lake and people will stand its shores fishing all the way from the spring of Gedi to the spring of Egliam. It will be a place of spreading nets and its fish will be of a great many kinds (47:10). In John 21 the author is engaged in a Hebrew exegesis of this passage in Ezekiel seeing a correspondence between the Hebrew “children of God” of Jn 1:12 and en-egliam in Ezekiel 47:10. To be sure this is only a guess – if it has merit then what John is saying is Egliam signifies the children of God and Gedi (which means sacrifice, which has the value of 17) are connected – the new life symbolized by the river has its source in the Temple, the place of sacrifice. So it seems, John’s interpretation of Ezekiel 47 is that it has its origin in the sacrificial death of Jesus, who is both the new Passover Lamb and the new Temple from which flows the source of life.
Now we know what is meant when in Jn 7:38 Jesus says, from his breast shall flow streams of living water, which is what happened at the cross with the piercing of his side. Much of this comes from a conflation of Ezekiel 47:1, Zech 14:8 and Ps 78:16.
Even so, Buckham notes, the 153 fish parabolically illustrates people coming to faith in Jesus and to new life as the children of God as a result of the Church’s mission in the world (evangelistic outreach). So the catching of 153 fish in the net that did not break is to symbolizes all the children of God, who become children of God receiving eternal life, through believing in Jesus as the signs reveal him to them –
I recognize this is not the absolute right interpretation of the passage – yet recognize it is a valid one. If it is a guess, I think it might be a pretty good one.
Really, you should check out Bauckham’s book.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 5:02:29 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 189
Joined: 12/1/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Manwe,
quote:
One possibility is to consider the role of Hebrew Gematria (a valid mode of Jewish interpretation - John was Jewish and frequently utilized Jewish hermeneutics when he composed the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse). Gematria involves the calculation of the numerical value of a word written in Hebrew or Greek letters (each Hebrew and Greek letter also has a corresponding number - they did not utilize roman numerals). There is also a technique that involves the measurement of sections of text by counting syllables or words. Or a combination.
I recognize gematria as part of PaRDeS, the rules of Jewish hermeneutics
Gematria is mentioned at 29 in the 32 rules listed first. (see note under section also)
The Greek/Hebrew numerical values used are in this link.
Some of these hermeneutics are interesting,but trying to force scripture to conform to these rules can be dangerous-especially if you don't follow the general rule that the deeper meaning never contradicts the base meaning.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 5:38:32 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 189
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Hello all,
I have decided to add the following interesting observation about PaRDeS.
paRDeS as paradise
quote:
The Pardes system is often regarded as mystically linked to the word pardes (Hebrew ôÈÌøÀãÅÌñ), meaning orchard. "Pardes" is the origin of the word "paradise", and probably originally from Persian.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
3 And I know such a man -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev. 2:7 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.
Interesting to note in the verses I provided is that the root of the greek word for paradise -PaRaDeiSw(on),as well as PaRaDiSe itself when you take out the vowels (which Hebrew does not have) form the same word PaRDeS.
These verses may hold hidden riches of understanding as well.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/18/2008 7:50:12 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
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The scriptures tell us how to judge an interpretation. Does it agree previous revelation and has it or other things like it proven itself to be true.
Though what has been said so far doesn't appear to violate scripture, I personally have my doubts about the validity of symbolic interpretation. Though we see some cases where the symbolism of a culture was used in the scriptures to make a point, I have also seen where symbolic interpretation has lead to false doctrine.
Shabbat Shalom
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: 153 fish - 1/19/2008 12:39:10 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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LOL!! Or maybe 777 means something.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Isaiah 15:3 may hold the key to understanding this:
In their streets they have girded themselves with sackcloth;
On their housetops and in their squares
Everyone is wailing, dissolved in tears.
or maybe Psalm 15:3
He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend
Or not...
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RE: 153 fish - 1/20/2008 9:09:17 AM
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DInsight
Posts: 175
Joined: 3/14/2006
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With the same divine wisdom by which 666 is counted and understood, so can 153 also be counted and understood.
_____________________________
Grace and peace from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ unto all saints and faithfuls!
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RE: 153 fish - 1/20/2008 9:45:02 AM
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GreyBird
Posts: 2
Joined: 1/20/2008
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quote:
With the same divine wisdom by which 666 is counted and understood, so can 153 also be counted and understood.
But counted and understood as what?
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RE: 153 fish - 1/20/2008 12:28:43 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 189
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Hello DInsight,
quote:
ORIGINAL: DInsight
With the same divine wisdom by which 666 is counted and understood, so can 153 also be counted and understood.
The following is the understanding of some ECF just after the Apocalypse was written.
666
Chapter XXX.—Although certain as to the number of the name of Antichrist, yet we should come to no rash conclusions as to the name itself, because this number is capable of being fitted to many names. Reasons for this point being reserved by the Holy Spirit. Antichrist’s reign and death.
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time 560 since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.
4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/21/2008 7:30:11 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1274
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Thank you for posting, though. I just listed a Scripture; that was all.
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
I would never think that you would not want to consider yourself a spiritual man; therefore your judgment is that the numbers written in the Prophets mean nothing to you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! I did not mean to insinuate that you were foolish in any way. This is what Scripture says.
I know it's what the Scriptures say. However, the Scriptures don't say that this was the context to be delivering it. You did.
Yes, I agree. If the numbers mean nothing to you, then they mean nothing to you. That's fine. But there are others who understand what some numbers and colors mean. According to scripture, 5 is grace, 7 is completion, 6 is the # for man, 12 is divine government, etc., It's not a trick, it's simple study of the word and spending time with the HOly Spirit where you start learning these things.
God is amazing in the attention He gives to every little detail. Layers and layers of revelation await all of us in scripture and a lifetime is not long enough to discover all the things God has to show us in scripture.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: 153 fish - 1/21/2008 8:50:25 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11470
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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quote:
According to scripture, 5 is grace, 7 is completion, 6 is the # for man, 12 is divine government, etc.,
What do you mean, "according to scripture"?
I haven't seen these "spelled out" in Scripture.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 1:59:09 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3587
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
"according to scripture"?
That always catches the attention, doesn't it? ROFL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 3:39:41 PM
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manwe
Posts: 199
Status: offline
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Well, I was just throwing out an idea - it is not law or gospel - I suppose it is as good a guess as any - Kat D presented a good possibility as well.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 4:56:00 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2388
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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I did learn something today. The number 153 does show up again in Scripture, in a way.
I am not saying that there is a correlation or connection...that would be pure speculation, I feel, however, it is indeed interesting.
Part of Jesus' ministry was asking questions. He challenged people in this way.
The number of questions asked by Christ, recorded in Scripture, is 153.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 6:19:04 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 995
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I did learn something today. The number 153 does show up again in Scripture, in a way.
I am not saying that there is a correlation or connection...that would be pure speculation, I feel, however, it is indeed interesting.
Part of Jesus' ministry was asking questions. He challenged people in this way.
The number of questions asked by Christ, recorded in Scripture, is 153.
I don't know if this means anything or not, but a chill went up my spine when I read that. Then I looked out my window and a stray cat was sitting on one of my porch pedastals. I know it's obvious, but... 1 + 5 + 3 = 9, as in 9 lives. Yeah, dude, I think there's something to this.
(OMG!! Cats like fish!   )
Seriously, though, it's interesting about the 153 questions.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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