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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2007 5:56:34 PM
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Elad02
Posts: 38
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quote:
I agree with guitarmark This entire thread is very unhelpfull and only seems to confuse people more.
"Thou shalt not" dogma isn't very helpful either. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that that does more harm than good. Confusion comes in when a popularly held belief is challenged. As forcefully as some people teach that masturbation is a sin, how in the world could the opposite be true? I believe that's why it's important to discuss it to see the truth.
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So your thesis is that masturbation is “natural”? However, just because something is “natural” does not mean it is “lawful” according to the Bible. We could, by such logic, extend this to other acts as well. For instance, murder would be “natural” to a murderer, theft would be “natural” to a thief, adultery would be “natural” to an adulterer, lying would be “natural” to a liar, etc--but such actions are not “lawful” according to God’s revealed will. We are all “natural” born sinners, yet to use nature as an argument to sanction sin is fallacious in my opinion. Nature is fallen and so is our human nature.
First of all, the Bible doesn't say that it is unlawful. Secondly, I think there is a distinction to be made between masturbation and the sins you listed above. Sexuality is a natural part of us. We were made to have sex. We have an organ and system of our body designed for that purpose. People are sexual beings. That's the way it is. Our bodies weren't made to murder, steal, etc. People can commit those sins, but their bodies weren't designed for that purpose. Masturbation is a natural response to our sexual selves.
Over the years, in many forums, I've seen Christians asking for help in dealing with their masturbation "sin". I can't recall seeing anyone asking for help overcoming their murdering problem or stealing habit or lying addiction. So why is it that people genuinely striving to please God continually fall into this "sexual sin"? Because sexuality is part of who we are. We can't escape it.
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As well it can be argued by guitarmark’s logic quoting Dobson that if I have a burning desire to steal, lie, cheat or kill then what right does anyone have, even God himself, to deny me in acting upon it?
How many Christians do you know that have the desire to steal, lie, cheat, or kill? I don't personally know any that desire that. However, I'll bet that most, if not all, Christians have, or have had, some sexual desire. Why? Because it's a NATURAL part of who we are.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2007 10:36:09 PM
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Okami
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I haven't read the whole thread yet. And truthfully might not since it's so many pages.
But
I can see not having lustful thoughts while doing it, it is easily possible. You can even think of your wife instead.
But, you aren't sharing your love with her, showing her your love, nor giving your love to her, since she isn't there.
How does the part in the Bible about "your body is not your own" "the husband's body belongs to the wife , the wife's body belongs to the husband" fit into the picture?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2007 8:25:03 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
How does the part in the Bible about "your body is not your own" "the husband's body belongs to the wife , the wife's body belongs to the husband" fit into the picture? When you are 15 years old and a decade out from getting married?
It doesn't.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2007 12:44:57 PM
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guitarmark
Posts: 118
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elad02
quote:
As well it can be argued by guitarmark’s logic quoting Dobson that if I have a burning desire to steal, lie, cheat or kill then what right does anyone have, even God himself, to deny me in acting upon it?
How many Christians do you know that have the desire to steal, lie, cheat, or kill? I don't personally know any that desire that. However, I'll bet that most, if not all, Christians have, or have had, some sexual desire. Why? Because it's a NATURAL part of who we are.
LOL... I can't even find the post from the person who misapplied my statement quoted above 
I was saying that Dobson stated the idea very clearly - I don't hold to it simply BECAUSE Dobson said it!!! Too funny... People here are so angry over M and their opinions regarding it that the whole thread is one big, long, rambling mess...
I believe that 99% of those arguing how sinful it is are enslaved by it and are trying to apply some sort of self-help by denying it - like that Senator in the airport bathroom 
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2007 9:34:19 PM
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Okami
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Exactly.
Don't be a slave to it.
If you are thinking lustfully or using pornography to achieve it, then it could be a problem.
If it leads to sin, then it is a bad thing.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2007 12:35:04 AM
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Anst
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quote:
First of all, the Bible doesn't say that it is unlawful.
I stand corrected (Ecclesiastes 7:5).
However, although the Bible may not be explicit in declaring masturbation unlawful--ie there is no definitive evidence prohibiting it as wrong, immoral or sinful--it is my belief that the Bible is implicit in its disapproval of the deed--ie there is circumstantial evidence.
1) Lust is condemned throughout the Scriptures--and this includes sexual lust (Exodus 20:17; 2 Samuel 11:2-4; Romans 6:12; 7:7; 13:14; Galatians 5:16; Colossians 3:5; 2 Timothy 2:22; James 1:14-15; 1 Peter 2:11; 1 John 2:16). Even though many professing Christians claim to masturbate without "lust" (eg viewing pornography or thinking sexually explicit thoughts) I believe that this still doesn’t make it acceptable--most of my own past experience with masturbation has been simply resorting to it to release the tension in a way that doesn’t employ pornography or thinking sexually immoral thoughts--anymore than snacking on "junk" foods when I’m supposed to save my appetite for the wholesome food my spouse is cooking up for me. Like the apostle Paul wrote: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not" (1 Corinthians 10:23 cf 6:12). In other words, just because I can, doesn't mean I should.
2) It is revealed in Bible Law that ejaculation via sex (Leviticus 15:16-18; cf Exodus 19:10-15) or nocturnal emissions (Deuteronomy 23:10-11) results in "uncleanness" or "contamination", which is spoken against in the NT as well (Romans 1:24; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 4:19; 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:7; 2 Peter 2:10). The reason for this I believe is stated in Deuteronomy 23:14: "For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing [margin: "nakedness of anything"--Hebrew ervah] in thee, and turn away from thee."
3) Although I am inclined to agree somewhat with those that claim that since Bible Law doesn’t refer to ejaculation in a "case scenario" involving masturbation perse it would imply that it is not wrong otherwise God would surely have included it in his revelation as he gave provision for other issues (eg sex, nocturnal emissions, menstruation, human excrement, etc). However, the reasons stipulated above (see 1 and 2) is evidence enough in my opinion against masturbation as well as the primary fact that He makes reference to "nocturnal emissions" or "wet dreams" in Deuteronomy 23:10-11. If He went so far as to illustrate a "wet dream" scenario why not provide a clear-cut case of "masturbation"? The implication is because he does not approve of masturbation. This can be extended to other forms of sex not mentioned in the Bible, but undoubtedly forbidden on principle alone (eg sex with machines, sex with dolls or other objects that mock the institution of sex and marriage).
4) Furthermore, there does seem to be an apt description of masturbation in Ezekiel 16:17 (cf Jeremiah 3:9) and in that case it is clearly revealed as immoral and equated with prostitution, harlotry or whoredom which is forbidden in Bible Law (Leviticus 19:29; Deuteronomy 23:17-18; cf Genesis 38:24). In conjunction with most forms of sexual immorality, especially masturbation, is pornography, which is spoken against (Numbers 33:52; Ezekiel 23:14-17).
Either way whoever is right in this debate I hope and pray that God speeds the day when we all finally "shall see eye to eye" (Isaiah 52:8).
quote:
Secondly, I think there is a distinction to be made between masturbation and the sins you listed above. Sexuality is a natural part of us. We were made to have sex. We have an organ and system of our body designed for that purpose. People are sexual beings. That's the way it is. Our bodies weren't made to murder, steal, etc. People can commit those sins, but their bodies weren't designed for that purpose. Masturbation is a natural response to our sexual selves.
Over the years, in many forums, I've seen Christians asking for help in dealing with their masturbation "sin". I can't recall seeing anyone asking for help overcoming their murdering problem or stealing habit or lying addiction. So why is it that people genuinely striving to please God continually fall into this "sexual sin"? Because sexuality is part of who we are. We can't escape it.
How many Christians do you know that have the desire to steal, lie, cheat, or kill? I don't personally know any that desire that. However, I'll bet that most, if not all, Christians have, or have had, some sexual desire. Why? Because it's a NATURAL part of who we are.
It is true that God didn’t create mankind with the purpose of sin in mind, but sin we do in our thoughts, attitudes, words and actions--and this extends especially to Christians who earnestly struggle against the "lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16)--in other words passions, pleasures, possessions and positions--by resisting the pulls of the flesh in whatever form they may take (eg idolatry, blasphemy, fornication, murder, druggery, stealing, lying, covetousness, etc). And though our predicament overwhelms us at times it shouldn’t hinder us in our spiritual walk (Romans 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 4:17; James 1:2-4).
However, resorting to "nature" to sanction sexual sin or any other type of sin is no less a fallacy in my opinion since we are all "natural" born sinners by our proclivities towards sin that knows no bounds--some are born murderers, others idolaters or adulterers or druggists or sodomites or liars or stealers etc (James 1:14-15). We all need God’s help to overcome our sinful nature whether we admit it or remain in denial. But, to God sin is sin, no matter what form it takes. And how do we define sin? By God’s Word, which reveals, "sin is the transgression of the law" or "lawlessness" (1 John 3:4; 5:17; cf James 4:17). Further, it is my opinion that the whole Bible (both OT and NT) is all about Law--which reveals His holy, righteous nature--and God’s dealings with his wayward people (eg Even the name "Israel" given to Jacob means "God Rules"). And God’s Word--as "Lawgiver" (Isaiah 33:22)--is "Law" and reveals what is right and wrong as the apostle Paul wrote: "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:8-10; cf Romans 3:20; 4:15; 7:7). Thus, like Adam and Eve we all have the power or freedom to choose and choose we must! To obey God or disobey Him. For ultimately we are all the products of our choices--both poor and wise. We all can give and receive instruction about a given matter, but in the end we are all responsible for the choices we make--both individually and nationally--and God will forever hold us accountable (Deuteronomy 30:19; cf Joshua 24:15). For in reality the choice is never between "law vs no law", but whose law? God’s or man’s? And God only asks that we govern, discipline or control ourselves unlike our modern, overregulated states under which we sigh--for the less internal or self-control we have, will inexorably lead to more rigorous external controls. As it has been attributed to James Madison the "Father of the Constitution":
"We have staked the whole of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
I mean who are we trying to fool? If I believe masturbation is morally wrong and sinful, and then claim that I am powerless to overcome it is in itself a choice now isn’t it?--a poor choice in my opinion (Romans 14:23). For God promises not to leave us helpless! "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (1 Timothy 1:7). Of course, there will be a cost (Luke 14:28)--a price to pay--but it will be worth it in the end (Proverbs 24:10; Galatians 6:9; Hebrews 5:8). And if I’m at all serious about overcoming this addiction--and any sinful behaviour--I have to start here, in the mind. Just like the tagline for Spiderman 3 goes "The greatest battle lies within"! Even the apostle Paul described the life-long struggle of self-discipline or self-government in terms of a contest:
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Corinthians 9:24-27).
Like CS Lewis wrote in "The Great Divorce" (1946):
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened."
Now having said all of that I am open to correction and of late I have read a fascinating account of sex in the Bible called And Adam Knew Eve: A Dictionary of Sex in the Bible by Ronald L Ecker and highly recommend it. From it I learned that there exists Biblical "euphemisms" throughout the Bible. One of these is the English word "feet", which is a euphemism for genitalia in the OT! I have done my own research in this area and come across the following points (NB 1-4 are based on Ecker’s book, but 5-6 are based on my own online research):
1) The prophet Isaiah prophesied to King Ahaz of Israel that the Assyrians would shave off their pubic hair--"the hair of the feet" (Isaiah 7:20.)
2) When Zipporah was forced to circumcise her son because Moses had failed to, she holds his severed foreskin to Moses' "feet" (Exodus 4:25) or genitals and declares "Surely a bloody husband art thou to me…A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision" (vv. 25-26).
3) When Rabshakeh, a representative of the Assyrian King Sennacherib, threatens King Hezekiah and the Judahites he uses the phrase "water of the feet", translated "****" in 2 Kings 18:27 and Isaiah 36:12. This is made all the more interesting when it is learned that "water" can symbolize sperm in the Bible (eg Isaiah 48:1; cf Numbers 24:7; Psalms 68:26).
4) The phrase "uncover the feet" used in the episode between Ruth and Boaz, it is claimed, means Ruth uncovered Boaz’s genitals in a bold way to propose marriage (Ruth 3:4; 3:7-8, 14). At the same time she asks him to "spread therefore thy skirt [or coverlet] over thine handmaid" (Ruth 3:9 cf Ezekiel 16:8), which is another way of saying "take me to thy couch as thy wife", which implies sexual intercourse. And in Ecker’s book he notes: "Whether sexual intercourse takes place on the threshing floor is not stated, though Amy-Jill Levine notes that threshing floors were associated with sexual activity (see Hosea: "Upon Every Cornfloor"), and that the Hebrew word for skirt (kanap) can also connote genitals, reinforcing the sexual subtext."
5) On the other hand it has been suggested by some that "cover the feet" in Judges 3:24 and 1 Samuel 24:3 neither refers to defecation nor to urination, which is the traditional interpretation, but masturbation. I am more inclined to believe the former interpretation (ie defecation or urination), but the possibility remains.
6) However, 1 Samuel 21:13 is a bit more credible regarding a possible description of masturbation: "And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard." This verse it has been claimed actually means in Hebrew that David in pretence of being mad masturbated in front of King Achish since the phrase translated into English as "in their hands" comes from Hebrew yad (Strongs 3027) and can have a phallic meaning inferring "artificial hands or handles or things that resemble handles" or "which denote members of the body".
Any thoughts on these points are welcomed just email me.
And now on a personal note in my own struggle against masturbation, I have reconciled myself to the fact that I have to accept my life--excruciatingly boring as it might get at times!--without resorting to masturbation as a means of relief. It has been said that boredom is the "catalyst for creativity" so I guess that I just have to have my creative abilities guided to more rewarding activities to fill up the boredom or counteract the stresses of daily life. And having never "played" this "game" until I was 27 years of age--4 years ago now--I believe that it should be easier for me to draw on memories of what my life was like without it. I understand that it will be more challenging for those that can’t remember what their lives were like without masturbation, but that only means it will be difficult not that it will be impossible!
I have also found helpful Joshua Harris’ excerpted article "Self-centered Sex" (from his book Not Even a Hint) at www.familylife.com/articles/article_detail.asp?id=514--especially his candid advice about playing the "I’ll touch myself but won’t climax" game, which he counters by advocating "Flee temptation by not touching yourself at all"!--and Jeff Maitlen’s "Is it a sin to masturbate?" at www.crosswalk.com/988042/ and Mike Genung’s "Getting to the roots of the porn epidemic" at www.crosswalk.com/1457170 So I encourage you to check them out if you haven't already done so. Also, a few songs whose lyrics have made a positive impact in my own resistance against masturbation are Foo Fighers "Best of You"; Linkin Park "What I’ve Done" and notably Rush of Fools "Undone"--so give them a listen!
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"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"--Isaiah 8:20
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2007 12:25:48 PM
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guitarmark
Posts: 118
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Guitarmark you are doing nothing more than just asserting guilty conscious as the basis for anyone actually wants to fight the flesh, thank you for encouraging us to the exact opposite with your smart comments.
Only in respect to this topic and the way that it is often presented by the posters. However, if I've encouraged you, I am thankful...
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2007 12:41:37 PM
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guitarmark
Posts: 118
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Ohio
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I suppose the thing that really irks me in this thread is the fact that we have two different camps - one against and one that isn't necessarily against. Then we have people who are genuinely afflicted over their personal behavior, based on what their mom or pastor or somebody else told them. They want answers and they come here and get lots of confusing, personal opinion and heated diatribe.
The best anybody "against" can offer seems to be tortured interpretations of unrelated Scripture passages. But they put these personal interpretations forth as FACT, rather than saying, "this is how I see it." We see many, many people who jump into this thread with very dogmatic opinions and then rant on and on against the sinful people who don't read the same Bible that they do (you know, the one with the hidden warnings against M).
It just gets frustrating...
And the really ironic thing is that scarcely any healthy male reading this forum is likely to believe the assertions of those who say that they don't ever do it, yet those people are here and they tell everybody else that their personal convictions must also be shared by the rest of us.
I see this thread causing unnecessary guilt and sorrow for the guys who come here looking for answers. I see nothing good coming from this thread, yet without the honest, open contributions from those of us who aren't in the "against" camp, it will be overrun by personal opinion based on nothing that can be found in the Holy Scriptures. It's that part that keeps me poking my head into here every once in a while.
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/25/2007 5:31:55 PM
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Frank6535
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masterbation leads to doing what you are fantisizing about, i should know, i let my emotions and what i feel robbed of, led me to do something i wont share, i will say it has encompassed my thoughts to where i am deeply fighting with not wanting to make a comment on some of the women i see around my neighborhood,some women arent really aware of what they are offering and what it is feeding. men need to either turn their heads or keep the eyes focused on who we serve.i will probably never be able to do what jesus talks about in terms of doing the things he did when he walked here on earth,i find my heart hurting and many times i am wanting to never have started,but because i am emotionally embattled,i will always have that thorn in my thinking and emotions,i am free in the blood of the lamb,i am saved through what was done on calvery,by his stripes, i am whole,i only do what feels good because i lost much growing up, never invited or given the means to attend the mens gatherings,or never had some older solid christian male come up along side me and help. it was too much financially or a trouble time wise, dont get me going on the churches around here, the catholic/"non-denominations around here couldnt be bothered to do a joint outreach.it would save so many souls, and even so, it only proves we are closing in the end days,i am sad that theres a lack of willing men and leaders wanting to have the joy of bringing the lost out in the streets.so, if those that think its ok, go to the prisons,and ask the inmates,if they enjoyed doing what they did that got them a 25-40 year sentence.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/25/2007 6:58:01 PM
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guitarmark
Posts: 118
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Frank6535
masterbation leads to doing what you are fantisizing about, i should know, i let my emotions and what i feel robbed of, led me to do something i wont share,
You have free will. I feel sorry that you're struggling with so many issues, but to say that M will lead to something really bad is preposterous.
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i will say it has encompassed my thoughts to where i am deeply fighting with not wanting to make a comment on some of the women i see around my neighborhood,some women arent really aware of what they are offering and what it is feeding.
Again, not sure where you've been or what you're going through, but saying that where you are now is solely the result of M is hard to buy into...
quote:
men need to either turn their heads or keep the eyes focused on who we serve.i will probably never be able to do what jesus talks about in terms of doing the things he did when he walked here on earth,i find my heart hurting and many times i am wanting to never have started,but because i am emotionally embattled,i will always have that thorn in my thinking and emotions,i am free in the blood of the lamb,i am saved through what was done on calvery,by his stripes, i am whole,i only do what feels good because i lost much growing up, never invited or given the means to attend the mens gatherings,or never had some older solid christian male come up along side me and help. it was too much financially or a trouble time wise, dont get me going on the churches around here, the catholic/"non-denominations around here couldnt be bothered to do a joint outreach.it would save so many souls, and even so, it only proves we are closing in the end days,i am sad that theres a lack of willing men and leaders wanting to have the joy of bringing the lost out in the streets.so, if those that think its ok, go to the prisons,and ask the inmates,if they enjoyed doing what they did that got them a 25-40 year sentence.
You've lost me completely now... 
_____________________________
Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2007 5:52:47 PM
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Elad02
Posts: 38
Joined: 7/4/2005
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quote:
However, although the Bible may not be explicit in declaring masturbation unlawful--ie there is no definitive evidence prohibiting it as wrong, immoral or sinful--it is my belief that the Bible is implicit in its disapproval of the deed--ie there is circumstantial evidence.
To me this is like saying God didn't do a good enough job in saying what is sin. Although He didn't come right out and say it, surely He meant to. Isn't that putting words in God's mouth? If God didn't say it is a sin, then to say otherwise is reading your own beliefs into it.
quote:
Lust is condemned throughout the Scriptures--and this includes sexual lust (Exodus 20:17; 2 Samuel 11:2-4; Romans 6:12; 7:7; 13:14; Galatians 5:16; Colossians 3:5; 2 Timothy 2:22; James 1:14-15; 1 Peter 2:11; 1 John 2:16). Even though many professing Christians claim to masturbate without "lust" (eg viewing pornography or thinking sexually explicit thoughts) I believe that this still doesn’t make it acceptable
I think a lot of people don't really understand what lust is. I don't believe it's simply seeing something or thinking about it. If I were to lust after wealth, I wouldn't just be thinking about money or looking at something valuable. No, I would be out actively pursuing wealth, gettiny my hands on as much as I possibly could. If fame were something I desired to have I wouldn't just be thinking, "Oh! wouldn't it be cool to be famous?". No, I would be out going places and doing things to get noticed. Likewise, if I were to lust after women, it wouldn't be just a thought. I would be actively pursuing all the women I could. If thinking sexually explicit thoughts is all that makes one guilty of the sin of lust, then surely God would be a sinner, correct? The creator of sex has surely had sexually explicit thoughts. He even uses sexually explicit language in the Bible. God has seen billions of people's bodies and sees them have sex. That doesn't make Him a sinner.
quote:
It is revealed in Bible Law that ejaculation via sex (Leviticus 15:16-18; cf Exodus 19:10-15) or nocturnal emissions (Deuteronomy 23:10-11) results in "uncleanness" or "contamination", which is spoken against in the NT as well (Romans 1:24; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 4:19; 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:7; 2 Peter 2:10). The reason for this I believe is stated in Deuteronomy 23:14: "For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing [margin: "nakedness of anything"--Hebrew ervah] in thee, and turn away from thee."
Don't confuse ceremonial uncleanness with sin.
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Furthermore, there does seem to be an apt description of masturbation in Ezekiel 16:17 (cf Jeremiah 3:9) and in that case it is clearly revealed as immoral and equated with prostitution, harlotry or whoredom which is forbidden in Bible Law (Leviticus 19:29; Deuteronomy 23:17-18; cf Genesis 38:24). In conjunction with most forms of sexual immorality, especially masturbation, is pornography, which is spoken against (Numbers 33:52; Ezekiel 23:14-17).
How do you get masturbation out of the Ezekiel and Jeremiah passages? Harlotry and whoredom are commonly used as allegories for an unfaithful nation.
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However, resorting to "nature" to sanction sexual sin or any other type of sin is no less a fallacy in my opinion since we are all "natural" born sinners by our proclivities towards sin that knows no bounds--some are born murderers, others idolaters or adulterers or druggists or sodomites or liars or stealers etc (James 1:14-15).
I'm not approving of sin. Maybe you just see it that way because you believe that it is sin. Some may be born into certain sins as you say, but everyone is born sexual. That isn't sin.
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I have also found helpful Joshua Harris’ excerpted article "Self-centered Sex" (from his book Not Even a Hint) at www.familylife.com/articles/article_detail.asp?id=514--especially his candid advice about playing the "I’ll touch myself but won’t climax" game, which he counters by advocating "Flee temptation by not touching yourself at all"!--and Jeff Maitlen’s "Is it a sin to masturbate?" at www.crosswalk.com/988042/
I didn't see Harris' article there, so I couldn't read it, but I did read the second article you mentioned. I don't agree with it. First, he says that we shouldn't masturbate because Jesus never masturbated because He never saw His Father do it. Um...OK. Wouldn't that make marital sex a sin as well? People can't imagine the holy, perfect Jesus marrying or having sex, but that doesn't make it a sin for Christians to do so. That argument makes no sense. Second, it's presumptuous to think it doesn't glorify God. That position is assuming that it is a sin, and as such, since we are to glorify God with our bodies, we can't be glorifying Him by it. I believe God is more glorified if we accept and thank Him for the way He made us instead of thinking it is some evil to be avoided at all costs.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2007 11:26:30 AM
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JamesL5
Posts: 97
Joined: 8/26/2007
Status: offline
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Hello everyone,
If you have any questions on masturbation, please go check out a great and helpful christian website called Bible.com
Click under the link called Bible Answers. I hope this information will be helpful to all my fellow christians.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 10:28:08 AM
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KConner711
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
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I am pretty sure we all wish that God would put his own post in here so we can know the truth, but itll never happen.
Ok, ive seen people say things from well it dont say heroin is bad, ive seen some modest people use the key words "i think" (thank you for that). Some others have used scripture to twist opinions into their favor. Some are mainly just medical instances. So i will supply what i have learned
thus far and answer what i can with "MY OPINION" which will be backed
with facts we are already sure about, or scriptures we may not be familiar with.
And before i start, i have read almost this entire post, as long and argumentantive as it may be.... (all 35 pages)
First things first heroin, cocaine, cigarettes etc, we should already know better than to even use those as leverage, they harm the body, and we all know Gods view on bodily harm so chalk up that option.
Masturbation isnt harmful in ANY way, and most of the time wives near and far are happy with the idea because lets face it nobody has a wife who is willing to do it for them whenever they want it, this goes both ways, alot of time husbands arent satisfying wives.
On a realistic level yes there would be no means or need for masturbation if spouses actually catered to each other they way they are supposed to but it never happens. To many things inhibit the option to have true dedication to the spouse, we can do right by them, care for them and uphold our ends of the bargain in wedlock. But sex isnt always part of the daily to do list whether we want it or not.
But on a standpoint of sexual needs, id like someone to be able to say, i dont need to masturbate, my husband/wife makes sure my every single sexual need is met every single time it needs to be met. And i never go a day without being 100% satisfied sexually <--- YEAH RIGHT
Medical terms state yes masturbation is healthy, it prevents cancer, and wet dreams are in fact release valves for the younger generations, but mainly just as a release of something that can become a negative if held to long. Not cause they were thinkin about it, maybe they were, maybe they werent, the release valve still built to much pressure. And its natural for the body to release it.
Leviticus 15:16-18
16= Semen emission on SOLO BASIS
17= Semen emission involving clothing, the bed etc.
18= Semen emission involving a man AND A WOMAN
Now seriously if all semen emissions were to be based within a marriage, and these emissions only being triggered by a spouse, why is there a line that gives statement about someone having emissions ALONE.
Opinion:
You shouldnt have to think about anyone but your spouse cause you should be to much in love to think of anyone else. But true your spouse may not be willing to accomodate at all times as im sure EVERYBODY can understand, women and men alike. If you want sex, go to your spouse, if your spouse dont wanna help you, wait, if you go back and again no reponse from your spouse, wait, if after that you are still denied confront your spouse about your sexual needs and exlplain they arent being met. If after that you still get no response from your spouse you have a problem, and your solutions are as such. Marriage Counseling <-- First Pick. Then it moves into Adultery, Porn, Divorce etc.
Masturbation however can slow this evolution down. So your spouse has had a busy week, hasnt felt well, or maybe just hasnt had much of a want/need for sex lately for whatever reason. It doesnt mean they dont love you and certainly dont mean that next week they wont want you twice as bad as you wanted them. What if the husband cant "prolong" sex enough to satisfy their wives, wouldnt that cause alot of frustration and possibly result in adultery, divorce, a torn family etc.
The top reasons for divorce in this world are money, children and sex. If masturbating would prevent a divorce because it fills the gaps in the difference between a husband and wives sex drive wouldnt that be reason enough. Two people can love each other more than anything shy of God it doesnt mean they have the same sex drive. A couple gets divorced because of sex, the husband and wife are now single, their sex drives are still intact, they will have to find means elsewhere for sure at this point. Promiscuity will most likely be the solution, or masturbation, which one is wrong/worse. The promiscuity may be followed by disease, abortion, or a child without a sound family to be part of as it was just a one night stand went wrong.
I have also seen others make comment if you want sex get married, what do you suggest mail order brides? Acting as if finding a spouse is a simple process is just obsured. Many spend most of their lives trying to find someone that will truly love them and some never find anything at all. Just go get married is ignorant as a statement and is a lousy rebuttle in any sexual topic.
I have also seen comments of "would you do it in a church, or in front of Jesus", ARE YOU SERIOUS, if your in front of Jesus your not gonna pick your nose, or urinate, or deficate, or do anything other than stand in amazement, let alone be thinking anything of a sexual nature as you were just put in front of our Lord and Savior. So for all seriousness dont even go there with that one. You wouldnt deficate in front of your mother even tho she changed your deficated diaper the first 3 yrs of your life but that dont mean its a sin, we have to do it everyday or we would get backed up pretty quick.
I will pause for now as this is alot of food for thought, but i will give a final conclusion.
Adultery= Bad (stated in bible)
Drugs= Bad (harms body, stated in bible)
Porn= Bad (lusting and objectifying of humans, stated in bible)
Divorce= Bad (find a way that its a good thing unless its cause of abuse)
Incest= Bad (stated in bible)
Homosexuality= Bad (stated in bible)
Bestiality= Bad (stated in bible)
Child Abuse (sexual or otherwise)= Bad (who cares we know its wrong)
Heres a couple for you over opinionated folks to
Urination, Defication, Flatulence= NOT BAD (but you still wouldnt do it in front of Jesus or your own mother for that matter, alot of people wont do that anywhere but within their own home, like the Wizard of Oz, there is no place like home.)
Masturbation= ???? (start with Laviticus 15:16-18 and my previous statement)
(could prevent divorce, adultery, a torn family, resentments toward spouse, prevents cancer in males, healthy for women as it keeps their sexual organs functioning properly and can also be good for them at times of menstruation to deal with cramps etc, eases the sexual mind and tensions which allows us to be focused again on other things, men that cant "prolong" the sex may not be able to satisfy their wife masturbation makes men last longer which solves that problem. There are 100 other reasons that it is beneficial but in the end its up to you.
I left the answer to masturbation as ???? cause im not gonna tell you its right or wrong, its your decision, if you feel bad about it dont do it, but before you condemn what others do find your facts, and dont use ignorant analogies about doing it in front of Jesus, or just go get married if you want it. Alot of people wouldnt eat undercooked meat in front of Jesus so you gotta take that concept lightly, most of us wouldnt do anything in front of him except stare in heavenly amazement. And just go get married, lol, this isnt Nike you cant "Just do it".
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2007 9:04:24 PM
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jbow
Posts: 769
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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Has it occurred to anyone that the argument put forth by those who want to masturbate is basically the same argument put forth by the homosexual community in justification of thier behavior?
We have an absolutely amazing ability to justify those things that we want to do.
Is masturbation ok? Is it natural? If you think so tell me this? When you are talking to a neighbor or to an elder in your church do you say in passing, "yeah, I was masturbating last night when I got a phone call..." or "Yeah, just a minute I need to go masturbate, i'll only be a minute", like you would say, "just a minute, I need to use the bathroom".
No you don't do that because everyone knows that it is shameful.
You are deceiving yourself if you do not realize that masturbation is lust centered self gratification. I believe most all of us men struggle with this sin through most of our life but to excuse it is the bigger sin. Just as the insistance by homosexuals that their lifestyle is normal and acceptable is a bigger problem than the actual act. God can deal with someone who struggles with a sin but once the person begins to excuse the sin and begins to call wrong right.... well, that is a dangerous line to cross.
Just because your hand fall's where it does and fits where it does... and just because you can't seem to help yourself does not mean that you can excuse it.
I have an idea, if you contend that it is ok, ask your pastor if it is ok. God has placed you under your pastor, you should accept his ruling on this.
Or maybe it masturbation is ok maybe someone can get Fritz to add a folder here for masturbation tips, that would be ok, wouldn't it?
Do you pray while you masturbate? We are to pray at all times, right?
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2007 10:49:32 AM
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jbow
Posts: 769
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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One more thing...
I have been doing very well lately... until yesterday. I came here and read some in this thread. I do not believe in coincidences.
What ever happened to "if meat offend my brother, I will not eat meat"?
I guess just reading in here triggered some thought process or maybe it is more of a spiritual thing, I don't know. What I do know is that I feel horrible. Maybe I am the weaker brother" mentioned by Paul, in any case I will not be reading in this folder any more.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2007 2:57:37 AM
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900MHZ
Posts: 79
Joined: 6/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
Has it occurred to anyone that the argument put forth by those who want to masturbate is basically the same argument put forth by the homosexual community in justification of thier behavior?
We have an absolutely amazing ability to justify those things that we want to do.
Is masturbation ok? Is it natural? If you think so tell me this? When you are talking to a neighbor or to an elder in your church do you say in passing, "yeah, I was masturbating last night when I got a phone call..." or "Yeah, just a minute I need to go masturbate, i'll only be a minute", like you would say, "just a minute, I need to use the bathroom".
No you don't do that because everyone knows that it is shameful.
You are deceiving yourself if you do not realize that masturbation is lust centered self gratification. I believe most all of us men struggle with this sin through most of our life but to excuse it is the bigger sin. Just as the insistance by homosexuals that their lifestyle is normal and acceptable is a bigger problem than the actual act. God can deal with someone who struggles with a sin but once the person begins to excuse the sin and begins to call wrong right.... well, that is a dangerous line to cross.
Just because your hand fall's where it does and fits where it does... and just because you can't seem to help yourself does not mean that you can excuse it.
I have an idea, if you contend that it is ok, ask your pastor if it is ok. God has placed you under your pastor, you should accept his ruling on this.
Or maybe it masturbation is ok maybe someone can get Fritz to add a folder here for masturbation tips, that would be ok, wouldn't it?
Do you pray while you masturbate? We are to pray at all times, right?
J
Heck, I wouldn't say, "Hey, I was picking my nose the other day, and man, I got myself a whopper!" But nosepicking isn't a sin, right? It's a dirty habit, but not a sin.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2007 9:35:43 AM
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jbow
Posts: 769
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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No, nose picking may not be a sin but masturbation is.
The Lord just opened my eyes to somethig this morning.
I assume you know that you must take scripture in context.
Matthew 5:27-30
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away< | | |
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