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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:43:29 PM
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Chief
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quote:
Calvinism is a philosophy in which God determines history. God does determine history, doesn't He?
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:46:31 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:49:33 PM
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turretinfan
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In answer to post 112.
Holdon,
I meant what I said, which was that Calvinism is a philosophy in which God determines history.
In Calvinism, everything is the way it ought to be, because God determines the way things are, and he does not make mistakes. So, inasmuch as "wrong" means "not the way it should be" then fine. If you mean something connected with moral wrongness, then you have yet to explain that connection.
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:49:36 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:50:57 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:51:32 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
The kind of knowledge you describe is a statistical knowledge ... not a certain knowledge. There is nothing that you know certainly.
-Turretinfan
Can you know anything certainly? You?
I don't know, or at least I'm not sure.
:)
-Turretinfan
Well, should we discard your opinion then as you did NIC's?
Re-read my post. NIC is talking about fallible human knowledge, not certain divine knowledge. There is a logical disconnect there. I was not shredding him for lacking certain knowledge. My point was that the generic "you" does not have certain knowledge. I would be a member of that "you" as are all but God. Perhaps I should have said "one" to avoid this kind of confusion.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:52:57 PM
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turretinfan
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In reply to post 117:
God gets whatever he wants.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:54:14 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
There is lot of moral wrongness right now at this moment in the world, isn't there? So, did God determine that these things be so?
Yes.
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:58:13 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 6:01:16 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:04:05 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
Re-read my post. NIC is talking about fallible human knowledge, not certain divine knowledge. There is a logical disconnect there. I was not shredding him for lacking certain knowledge. My point was that the generic "you" does not have certain knowledge. I would be a member of that "you" as are all but God. Perhaps I should have said "one" to avoid this kind of confusion.
-Turretinfan
Well I did. I think the argument was made that mere foreknowledge can be based on other knowledge, call it foreseeing, or experience, or statistics.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think foreknowledge advocates usually think that God's knowledge is merely statistical.
My favorite example of God having purely statistical knowledge would be that he would know that on a given coin toss there is a 49.9999999999999999995 percent chance it will come up heads, a 49.9999999999999999995 percent chance it will come up tails, and a tiny percent chance that bird will snatch it out of the air and swallow it, which is about a billion times less likely than that it will land on its edge.
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 6:09:27 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:12:56 PM
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Chief
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quote:
Can God do what He wants, even if it is evil? This will be like talking to the wind since I know I am blocked. But we all know that the word of God does its work even on deaf ears.
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/7/2005 6:19:23 PM >
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:13:49 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
I must say you're true to the deterministic standpoint.
Thanks.
Civilly,
Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:13:59 PM
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NewinChrist
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I just find it surprising that folks actually do associate foreknowledge with things being determined to happen.. ? ?
That's basically saying that God desires and determines that the beast and the false prophet deceive many and then comes to destroy them with the brightness of His coming..
While I certainly believe that these things actually will happen..(because His word foretells us they will).. I do not attribute them as happening because He willed that or determined that they do.. but only because He knows that they will..
Interesting stuff..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:17:54 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
I just find it surprising that folks actually do associate foreknowledge with things being determined to happen.. ? ?
That's basically saying that God desires and determines that the beast and the false prophet deceive many and then comes to destroy them with the brightness of His coming..
While I certainly believe that these things actually will happen..(because His word foretells us they will).. I do not attribute them as happening because He willed that or determined that they do.. but only because He knows that they will..
Interesting stuff..
And if God did not want it to happen, he could stop the beast and false prophet (by killing them before they deceived the people, presumably), so he must want it to be so, whether or not you say he ordains it (which we say that he does). Or fate is stronger than God, so that he can see the future, but can do nothing to change it, but I don't think Arminians believe that.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:18:23 PM
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Chief
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
I just find it surprising that folks actually do associate foreknowledge with things being determined to happen.. ? ?
That's basically saying that God desires and determines that the beast and the false prophet deceive many and then comes to destroy them with the brightness of His coming..
While I certainly believe that these things actually will happen..(because His word foretells us they will).. I do not attribute them as happening because He willed that or determined that they do.. but only because He knows that they will..
Interesting stuff..
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:23:58 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
I just find it surprising that folks actually do associate foreknowledge with things being determined to happen.. ? ?
That's basically saying that God desires and determines that the beast and the false prophet deceive many and then comes to destroy them with the brightness of His coming..
While I certainly believe that these things actually will happen..(because His word foretells us they will).. I do not attribute them as happening because He willed that or determined that they do.. but only because He knows that they will..
Interesting stuff..
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I agree 100% with this.. surprised..?
I simply do not associate the wicked as being predetermined individuals.. nor the righteous as predetermined individuals..
What I do believe is that God prepares a place for those who embrace Him by faith.. and that He also prepares a place for those who reject His love and grace..
This is another significant difference... calvinism attributes all of this to specific individuals.. whereas others see God's elective purposes retained while still affording mankind the decision to embrace Him by faith or not..
So again, I completely agree with the scriptures.. there's simply a vast difference in how we interpret or view them and the author of them, and therefore a significant differece in how we speak of Him..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:32:16 PM
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Chief
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NIC,
quote:
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
quote:
I agree 100% with this.. surprised..? Actually I was...until I read the rest of it. 
quote:
I simply do not associate the wicked as being predetermined individuals.. nor the righteous as predetermined individuals.. How about a predetermined group?
quote:
What I do believe is that God prepares a place for those who embrace Him by faith.. and that He also prepares a place for those who reject His love and grace.. Is that really what those verses were saying - predetermining a place? That does not seem to fit with the statement "The Lord hath made...even the wicked...". It should have said "The Lord hath made...even hell..."
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:35:54 PM
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Mattumanu
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This is what Habbakuk had to say to God when God said he was raising up the babylonians to enact punishment on Judah.
Hab 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting?
My God, my Holy One, we will not die.
O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment;
O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.
Hab 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrong.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
Hab 1:14 You have made men like fish in the sea,
like sea creatures that have no ruler.
Hab 1:15 The wicked foe pulls all of them up with hooks,
he catches them in his net,
he gathers them up in his dragnet;
and so he rejoices and is glad.
Hab 1:16 Therefore he sacrifices to his net
and burns incense to his dragnet,
for by his net he lives in luxury
and enjoys the choicest food.
Hab 1:17 Is he to keep on emptying his net,
destroying nations without mercy?
To which God replies that he will destroy the babyonians as well. He even lists the charges of sin against the babylonians as his reasons for destroying them, even though HE himself raised them up for that purpose.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:50:01 PM
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Chief
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quote:
Well, we know that there are NONE righteous.. Actually that continues with NONE that seeks God.
quote:
and we know that we're righteous because of One Of course.
quote:
not because of ourselves Exactly.
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SO.. all of the righteous have been accepted in One.. in the beloved Son of God.. Amen.
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It's not about individuals.. but about God's Son.. As it suppose to be.
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Same goes for the wicked okay...(keeping fingers cross)
quote:
they too could have been declared righteous.. Of course.
quote:
but the scriptures tell us that some reject the love of the truth that they (too) might be saved Agreed.
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.. SO.. it's not about them either.. but rather about Him who they rejected.. You made me smile. But okay.
quote:
But hey.. that's me.. and I've thought of Peter Pan this way.. Sorry that just went over my head.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 6:58:23 PM
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NewinChrist
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Chief..
I've mentioned the bottom line before.. from the beginning.. why do you act surprised or something.. ? Do you not understand the fundamental difference in views here.. ?
It's simple isn't it.. ?
Your view is that God allowed you to believe.. (and so He either allows individuals to believe or He does not)
I believe that I trusted in Him after I heard the word of truth.. ie.. the GOSPEL.. and that after I believed.. He sealed me with the spirit of promise.. (which is how I see all of His people.. they were motivated and and turned to God because of the power and love of His gospel..)
So again.. the King has either won the hearts and affections of His people or He has decided that all for them..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:01:54 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So again.. the King has either won the hearts and affections of His people or He has decided that all for them..
Or both, as in Calvinism, no?
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:04:23 PM
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NewinChrist
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What is more sovereign in your estimation..
A king who wins the hearts and minds of his subjects by his love and grace which goes beyond what they could have ever asked for our thought of.. while preserving their free will at the same time..
OR..
A king who determines all those that will love him and his subjects have absolutely no connection as to why they're chosen to be his..
Seriously folks..
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