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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 5:14:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Because God is God - there is no other reason
That is no reason for worship, unless He is worthy. Excuse me? You're saying that because God is God is no reason to worship Him?...surely, you can't mean that. God thinks He's worthy of prayerful worship just because He is God. He is righteous like none other just because He is God.
Psalm 71:19 Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee!
God says because He is holy He should be worshipped - just because He is God.
Psalm 99:5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
Isaiah 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
God says He is righteous even when He brings evil.
Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
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My question is HOW IS HE WORTHY of worship.
It can't be ju8st because He is God.
God need's to be worthy other than because He is God.
Worthy means to deserve.
How doe Christ deserve all honor and praise from those whom He didn't die for?
God is worthy of worship and praise simply because He is God. This doesn't depend on the thoughts of men. It doesn't depend on whatever man may think. Christ is worthy of honor simply because of who He is - God. That natural man refuses to acknowledge this doesn't change that fact. It's like the Bible...its inspiration doesn't depend upon man recogizing the fact that it is. It remains the inspired Word of God whatever man thinks of it.
Of all the scripture which declares God is worthy, I think God sums it up rather handily when He says : "I AM THAT I AM".
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Whatever He does is perfect whether it is hardening Pharaoh's heart so that his sin would continue and thereby glorify God or whether He orchestrated all that happened in the Garden.
Having sin to continue in it's course would not glorify God as much as softening Pharaoh's to show how great He is. No, God is clear that He hardened Pharaoh's heart for His own glory. We find in Ex 14 that God would be honored by Pharoah's actions because all of Egypt would know that He is the LORD. Even forty years later those events were remembered with awe by Rahab(Joshua 2:9-10).
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Do you not know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God kept his heart hard.
God harden Pharaoh's heart out of judgment because Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Actually, that's not true. We find it is God who is first in the hardening of Pharaoh's heart(Exodus 14:4)
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That is how it was with Pharaoh, he is at fault. 1Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?
Of course, Pharoah hardened his own heart which Exodus and 1Sam 6 say; but, that does not negate the fact that the first time "hardening" is mentioned in Exodus it is God who's doing it.
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That is how God is not to blame. God is never to "blame"; but, He is responsible.
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The way you describe it, sounds as if God makes man to sin because you say that God controls everything.
If He controls everything, that includes mankind and his thoughts & actions(sins)
You say that God "ordains" everything. That means God appoints, & orders man to sin.
God decrees and ordains as He did with Pharoah and the evildoers involved in the crucifixion. This doesn't change the fact that man follows his own inclinations and own desires to sin.
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Tell me how mankind is responsible if God controls everything including the hearts and actions of man? Man is to blame because it is he who desires to commit the sin and, in fact, does commit it - God doesn't. God doesn't force man to sin or put evil thoughts into his mind - man does that very well all on his own. Man acts without compulsion and in accordance with his own desires. Though God ordains all events, He does so with man's liberty in tact. We see both of these principles outlined in Scripture.
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Ain't that like saying a robot is guilty for doing what he is programed for? Nope, man is a rational being not a robot nor he man "programmed" by God to sin.
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Your telling me that God's heart will not be swayed, no mater what. I'm telling you God does not change His mind. This is not possible if He is omniscient and He is.
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Your telling me that Gods will is not to save only if & when I pray for one of the "non-elect" We don't know who is elect, that's God's business not ours. God tells us to pray; therefore we pray for the salvation of loved ones, friends, etc.
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Plain & simple, Gods will is not to save?
I said this before, you make HIS NAME to be a lie.
Jesus name means "savior; deliverer" You're drawing some very outlandish conclusions. Who has ever said it is God's will "not" to save? Of course, He saves; though, He doesn't save everybody, does He?
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Pretend, I am a non-elect
I am in need of saving & delivering.
A Man comes along with the Name "savior; deliverer"
My friend asks Him to save & deliver me.
He says, "nope, I will not, I've made up my mind long ago.
His name is a lie to me. He is not savior; deliverer. Even if you don't receive a yes to your prayer, God has still accomplished His will in your life since you humbly brought your fears, hurts, desires, anxieties to Him in prayer.
God is not Savior and Deliverer to any who are condemned for their sins; whether He doesn't elect them; or, as in your pov whether they freely choose to reject.
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I'll ask again in this light, How is God so great if He has already made His mind up and WILL not save those who I pray in the spirit for with tears? All you are saying is that God is not "great" because He doesn't do what you want.
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No, I didn't say that. You do not know whether God will save the object of your prayers. But, whatever He does, He does it perfectly - it is just and right - simply because God does it.
It ain't what you say, it's the logic behind what you've said.
It don't matter if I know or not if anyone is non-elect.
The point is that HE WILL NOT. HE is apathetic to my cry.
Just because God's will is different from your will doesn't make Him apathetic to your prayers. No matter what our desire is, our highest desire should be that the will of God is done - that's what Christ teaches us in Mat 26:42.
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Why would God want us to love those whom He hates?
Why would God want us to pray for those whom He hates? Because it is none of our business who God "hates". Were we not "hated" by God before He saved us? Were we not under the wrath of God before He saved us? He commands us to love our neighbor and to want the highest good for them. That is why we pray for their salvation.
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Furthermore, why would God WANT us to pray for anything that is not His will? We don't know what God's will is for the object of our prayers.
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He will not save the "non-elect, We must pray according to His will, Therefore, God should reveal His heart/mind to us and have us stop praying for our loved ones. How would that comfort us?
It wouldn't. I guess that's why He doesn't inform us about who the elect are.
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The point of praying according to His will is the acceptance of His will - whatever it may be - knowing that He does everything perfectly.
That ain't what "praying according to His will" is.
It means to pray in harmony or in agreement to His will.
You think that not accepting God's will is somehow being "in harmony" with Him?
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According to your theology/doctrine, if I pray for non-elect, I am not praying in harmony or in agreement to His will. That may be your perception; but, it is untrue. We do not know who the elect are and we are commanded to pray for others. We are also commanded to desire God's will be done above all things. If we do that, we will always be in harmony and agreement with God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 7:19:51 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So are you saying that God makes mistakes and reverts
to plan B when plan A doesn't work?
I am telling you the Bible says God changes his mind.
Which gives me hope in reference to prayer and who can be saved.
And which gives eternal decreeists a big problem.
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Sorry, friend but God doesn't make mistakes.
Why do you equate God changing his mind with making a mistake?
If God had planned to wreak havoc on those in Jeremiah 36,
but changed his mind based on their repentance, how is that
a mistake?
Although it might be repugnant for some to think God would act
in response to a man, it is certainly true. He gives us none of
his sovereignty. He has chosen to do it that way.
God sets the conditions, man must respond, God will act.
quote:
He knows what we will do and more importantly, he knows
what will get each of us to repent and believe. That's why he broke Jacob's
hip when Jacob wrestled with Him.
Ah, and what if Jacob had no choice? What if the whole thing was staged?
Certainly it was not through Jacob's eyes, but certainly it must through yours.
And the lesson becomes much different, doesn't it?
If we God commands men to repent, desires men to repent, waits
patiently for men to repent, rejoices when men repent, and even
changes his mind when men repent, how can men be unable?
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God is no dummy and he doesn't make mistakes.
So when God "changes his mind' He's simply enticing men to turn to Him.
Glad to see you acknowledge God changes his mind.
Now will you admit the Scriptures say he changes his mind
in response to something he commanded or desired men to do?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 7:47:39 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So are you saying that God makes mistakes and reverts
to plan B when plan A doesn't work?
I am telling you the Bible says God changes his mind.
And I'm telling you otherwise...
Numbers 23:19 (New International Version)
19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Hebrews 13:8 (King James Version)
8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 7:51:30 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man only responds because of God...
John
OK, so this whole thing is some great cosmic game
where the results are already known by the one who set it up,
but he somehow gets great pleasure in seeing the mouse trap drop
after letting the marble go, knowing he put it all together perfectly
and the result will be the same every time?
Then why bother? Why bother praying for someone's salvation?
Why bother with discipling our children? Praying for safety?
Missions? ANYTHING, for that matter?
What is the point if not just to see how our desire lines up with
God's predetermined will?
Why isn't if ultimately fatalistic? Why should we care whether our
family members become converted? Its already been determined!
Why isn't it simply, "Que sera, sera, whatever will be will be....."???
As for man responding only because it has been predetermined:
God has revealed himself to all men (general revelation).
Are men are created with a knowledge of God and men possess
an internal moral witness or not?
Do some men - those who will not repent - have chosen to
reject that truth, suppress that knowledge and live in darkness?
Does not God works through his creation, through prayer, through circumstances
and people - to bring light into the lives of these men?
Don't men have a choice to accept or reject that light?
How come God desires all men to come to repentance? He sets the conditions?
He has revealed himself? He allows men to choose or reject?
Doesn't the reality of how and when people get saved proves this out?
Why do you think the conversion rate is so low the older people get?
I submit it is not because they were not chosen but because they
have hardened their hearts to the point of no return.
Why do you think the conversion rate for children is so high amongst
evangelical, discipling, God loving, God centered parents who truly live for the Lord?
Is it because those children are practically blinded by the light, or
because they are "chosen from before time began"?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 7:58:44 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I just don't see it.
I don't see God changing His mind.... Nor do I see the need for God to change the mind of that which can obey and repent on its own...
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If, like SureHope, you will agree we are unable because we are unwilling,
Man is unable because he can't nor is he willing...
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then I think I can present to you a different view of sovereignty that
will make more sense and be more consistent by balancing justice and love.
That's ok I shed those old beliefs long ago...
John
Why do you continue to ignore my question:
Please explain inability when God:
1. Commands men to repent
2. Desires men to repent
3. Waits for men to repent
4. Rejoices when men repent
5. Changes his mind when men repent
If you can show me how man is unable in light of Scripture that
clearly says 1-5 above, I will definitely re-evaluate my position.
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Right. Non-reformists need to read Romans 7:13-25 because Paul
explains beautifully how we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves.
Only the Holy Spirit can transform our hearts to believe and do God's will.
Since when does man free himself by recognizing his sin?
No more than he grants himself forgiveness by repenting.
No more than he converts himself by believing.
The wicked can repent. Scripture tells us this.
When true repentance occurs, God grants the ability to believe.
When the condition is met, God fulfills his promise.
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Romans 5:6 explains that we are God's enemies, not his advocates.
And that's why we need a savior.
Sure. But it doesn't say we are unable to repent.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:00:40 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
You are quite mistaken. God still considers mankind to be "in His image", for Gen 9:6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man, and 1 Cor 11:7 says, "For a man ought not to have his had covered, since he is the image and glory of God;, and James 3:9 says "With it (our tongue) we bless our Loord and Father; and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;.
Therefore, your pov that man is "created in the image of fallen man" is obviously not Biblical. I recommend more study.
If we are already the image of God then we would have no need of being conformed to the image of Christ who is the very image of God.
AMEN...and disregard 1 Corinthians 15 !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:01:42 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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Permissive will:
If God allows something to happen, how can he be the cause of it?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:14:38 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
God can not choose(elect) with out reason & purpose,
He doesn't... Though His choice isn't because someone did something...
What is His choice based on?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:23:01 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
quote:
God can not choose(elect) with out reason & purpose, He doesn't... Though His choice isn't because someone did something... Tell me then, what the Criteria for God electing?
God does what He wants...
Why must you dictate to The King ?
You know better than God does ?
Then don't read these verses... !!!
Isaiah 14:26-27 (King James Version)
26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isaiah 53:10 (King James Version) 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Matthew 11:25 (New International Version)
25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Luke 12:32 (King James Version)
32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Ephesians 1:5 (King James Version)
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:9 (King James Version)
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Philippians 2:13 (King James Version)
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Revelation 4:11 (King James Version)
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
See the pattern ? God's pleasure !
Will man talk back to God ?
Will man tell God what is right ?
WHATEVER God does is right !!!
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:24:05 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Agree.
But you must balance this with the fact that man must respond.
Do you agree man must respond? If you do, then how is he unable?
Man only responds because of God...
Of course it is because of God. That in no way means that God causes man's response. God created mankind to seek Him. So, man seeks God because of God, the Creator.
Man repents because of God. See rw's excellent post with verses that clearly demonstate that God is behind man's repentance. Jer 36:3, "Perhaps WHEN the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, each of them WILL TURN FROM HIS WICKED WAY, THEN I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."
This verse is clear. God warns man of what He PLANS to do because of their wickedness, and that is for the purpose of getting them to repent.
So much for the reformed theory that God "gives" repentance to those not seeking it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:49:43 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1684
Joined: 12/2/2006
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balbas,
That was another post that was very refreshing to read.
It is pretty cool you use Job. 
I notice in Job that the way things are presented it is told as if even what Satan does (stirring Chaldeans and Sabeans) is what God decrees to be done.
It does not imply that God is actually killing and looting although the text reads;
11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
So even though God has not done it personally.......He has somehow still done it.
If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?
Its as if the secondary cause (evil Satan) is loosed by the primary cause that can and does restrain evil (perfect God) and the secondary cause works on other evil causes (Sabeans, Chaldeans) to bring about the decreed will of a perfect and holy God.
It seems to be quite obvious to me that if God wanted no evil to take place on this earth He has the power to bind Satan or men and actually does.
Job knows that the hand of God is involved and notes it.
20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Even though Job knew God was involved......Job did not charge God with wrongdoing.
Please give me your input on text about God and how He sent a lying spirit to cause people to lie.
Looking forward to reading it.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 8:52:23 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Because God is God - there is no other reason
That is no reason for worship, unless He is worthy. Excuse me? You're saying that because God is God is no reason to worship Him?...surely, you can't mean that. God thinks He's worthy of prayerful worship just because He is God. He is righteous like none other just because He is God.
There it is kelman...
Ocassionally someone declares it !
Questioning the very character of God.
Setting the standards for God- WOW !
Telling God what constitutes worthiness.
Evaluating and measuring God's choices
against what a feeble, sinful man thinks.
The subtle defiance to deny worship...
Will one refuse to worship an unpopular
God, since God conflicts with man's wisdom ?
Sounds like God must earn some people's
submission and obedience. And if God dare
deviate from man's expectations, there will
be consequences ! IOW, shape up God, and
come around to man's way of thinking NOW !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:14:33 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
Freegrace,
quote:
Your point is moot. He was directly speaking to a group of unbelieving Jews who were going to die in their sins unless they believed in Him. Of course He IS the solution for the whole world, but He gave a specific warning to a specific group of people, along with the specific solution. You haven't explained WHY He did, in light of reformed pov.
I suppose you have the answer. And I suppose that the answer is free will.
Please just explain why Jesus would even bother to tell a non-elect that "unless you believe in Me you shall die in your sins". Wasn't that God's point in creating the non-elect, in your pov? So, why did He bother?
Or, why would Jesus bother warning a group of elect, knowing full well that they were going to be regenerated and would not be able to resist believing in Him? Reformed theory is unable to explain why Jesus warned the crowd of unbelievers. They were either non-elect, or elect, or a mixture. But in any case, there is no good explanation from the reformed theory pov as to WHY Jesus said what He said.
Only Free Will explains it adequately. Jesus told them because He died for them and He included the solution to the warning.
quote:
You gave this verse:
quote:
John 8:24
"I said therefore to you, that YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS; for UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM HE, YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS."
And accuse me of changing the topic. Because your point was that this is proof text for the docrtine of free will. Funny you should choose the book of John because in this very book, the Lord in many occasion explain why men do not believe and die in their sins.
Yes, He did. They were of their father the devil. Your response here still doesn't answer the question of WHY Jesus told a group of unbelievers they needed to believe in Him to avoid dying in their sins.
Whether they were non-elect, or elect, you simply have no answer, and what He said actually MAKES NO SENSE in the light of RT theory.
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All you need to do is read the whole book to see that those who do not believe never were given the grace to believe.
And what proof texts do you have for this?
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Just like that verse you may have other verses that show choices and commands but they do not suggest ability either.
One of the blatant errors of reformists is in their failure to understand that choice means ability to do the options. For example, can you really choose to run a mile in 3 minutes if you aren't able? No. So, even if you claim that you choose to do so is irrelevant, in light of your inability to do so. You can only choose between options IF you are able.
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What we have before us is the comparing of scriptures. The bible is clear that we are unable therefore we choose the wrong one and we disobey.
More reformed error. The Bible is very clear that what man is unable to do is save himself. That is why Christ died on the cross and that is why the gospel must be preached to every creature.
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If we are all naturally enlightened, and if our sin does not have that strong a hold in our hearts, man would certainly have been easily convinced and would have chosen to be saved because he would have understood that there no other logical choice. The cost is far too severe to choose death that able men should be definitely choosing the better one. A true illuminated mind and a true free will will make man to definitely choose eternal life.
This is reformist theory. Actually, Romans 1 tells us that we all are naturally enlightened: God has made Himself evident through creation. Yet, many suppress that Truth by claiming that God doesn't exist. So, you have no point.
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quote:
OK, just explain WHY Jesus warned a group of unregenerates and gave them the solution that they would have to apply in order to avoid the danger if they were unable to apply that solution on their own.
Everything is to be done by us if commanded by God. But then again we have a merciful God that in His good, even if we don’t ask, in His good pleasure will strengthen us. In this case God causes men to believe through His Spirit. He sees their need He provides them strength to do His will.
How does this even come close to answering my question of WHY Jesus warned a group and gave them the solution?
Don't you see the contradiction between what Jesus told them and the reformed pov? Why would He bother warning the non-elect, even telling that to avoid the danger they would have to believe in Him, if all faith was a gift from God? What could possibly be His point?
Or, if they were simply pre-faith elect, again, WHY bother warning them, since He would have known that they were absolutely going to believe in Him. Reformed theory just cannot answer the question that is demanded in light of rerformed theory.
quote:
It is God who works in you (us) TO WILL and TO DO His good pleasure. Phil 2:13
True, and it doesn't answer the question created by your pov.
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For apart from me you can do nothing John 15:5
True, but this doesn't answer the question created by your pov.
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No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3
True, but this doesn't answer the question created by your pov.
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Apparently, you are unable to answer the question, so you just change the subject with this nonsense.
Just like a constant drip of water. This is the easiest escape clause for someone who does not want to debate the issue but rather personally attack his opponent.
Why don't you just answer the question, then?
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And I agree. Our difference is how He chose. You believe He chose randomly; some for heaven and some for hell, without any preconditions at all.
Who says about random? Nothing is random with God?
Free Will pov has the answer as to how He chooses. What is your answer, if not random?
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He predestined us to be adobped as his sons. Eph 1:5
True, but that doesn't answer the question created by your pov.
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Your post was quite long, and you included many passages that have zero to do with my question. It is obvious that you cannot answer my question. Re: Rom 9:14-16, mercy and compassion are given to those who return to the Lord, per Isa 55:7. What is the "preconditon" in Isa 55:7 for the Lord's compassion? "returning to Him". The Free Will pov answers my question of WHY Jesus gave the solution to the unregenerate Jews, along with the warning to them. In compassion and mercy, which we call "love", He warned them of the danger they were heading for, and gave them the solution, because they were able to apply it to their danger and escape that danger. Please explain to me why my answer to my question is in error, since your pov disagrees with mine. Thanks.
Dangerous?
I never said "dangerous". Jesus warned that crowd of the danger of what they faced IF they didn't believe in Him.
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Only to those who will not acknowledge that the glory of God is not dependent on man. God depends on God. God does things for His glory. He needs nothing from us that He Himself cannot give. How is that a dangerous thought?
I have no idea what you mean by "dangerous thought"? Where do you get that from? Certainly not from anything I posted. Why can't you answer the question of WHY Jesus bothered warning a group of men to believe in Him or they would die in their sins?
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The focus of the gospel is not that man has the ability.
The focus is that man is unable to save himself, and needs to believe in Christ for salvation\, which he is able to do.
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The focus of the gospel is that God is merciful and loving.
Please tell that to your "non-elect". Again, why would Jesus bother warning the non-elect, who have no say in the matter. Why did Jesus even go so far as to give them the solution, which is to believe in Him, if reformed theory were true? Why can't you answer this question?
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It is true that He provided the solution but it is equally true that He gives the strength to believe which is very much absent from man.
This doesn't answer the question, though. If they were non-elect, are you suggesting He "might" give the strength to believe? Explain that.
If they were pre-faith elect, again, why warn them, knowing full well that they were going to get the faith, guaranteed?
In either case, your theological theory cannot answer WHY Jesus said what He did. Only Free Will pov does so, and quite adequately.
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but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. John 10:26
True, and doesn't answer the question, does it.
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My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
True, and still doesn't answer the question.
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Is all you can do is change the subject rather than answer the question? All your questions have already been answered. Do your homework. Can you please answer WHY Jesus warned them and also gave them the solution, if they can't apply the solution?
I have answered the way I had to answer with the way scriptures teaches us and with the manner that is glorifying to God.
Your "answers" neither answered my question, nor did they glorify God, if you were attempting to answer the question. The Free Will pov DOES answer the question AND glorifies God, who is all loving and all gracious and all merciful to everyone, not just a limited few.
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I choose my words carefully to not step over the line and raise man before God.
No, you chose your words carefully so as to avoid answering the question of WHY Jesus warned either the non-elect or the elect. In either case, His warning is meaningless, silly, or absurd, in light of reformed pov. Why have NOT answered WHY He did.
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For it is by the grace and mercy of God that poor undeserving stiff-necked sinners he would impart the gift of Faith. I have been truthful with what I believe and have been honest to you what I believe.
I don't doubt that at all. But, none of what you post answers the question, nor even comes close to explaining why Jesus would bother warning the non-elect, or warning the elect. Can you?
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If you wish for me to bow down to the ever-powerful doctrine of man-centered-self-determining-freewill, you are mistaken.
What you "describe" here is only in your imagination. The doctrine of free will says only that God created mankind to seek Him, and gave him the ability to do so, and holds him accountable and responsible for doing so, and that man has no excuse for not doing so. How is any of this wrong, in your opinion?
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You will need better than an eisegesis of scriptures to convince me.
I haven't even tried to convince you. I have just asked you WHY Jesus bothered warning the non-elect, since there is no point in doing. The FACT that He did so indicates He did so in taunting them. Explain how that wasn't a taunt, to warn someone of a danger that they were created for, according to your pov?
Or, explain why He bothered warning the pre-faith elect, since, according to your pov, they were guaranteed to believe anyway?
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I will not bow because the bible is clear that man is a stiffed-necked-blind-sinner that apart from the enabling of God will not believe and will not understand.
"enabled"? When Jesus gave the solution to that crowd, how is that not an enabling? Please explain.
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I will not bow because the bible is clear that the Sovereign God is not afraid to tell us that He can come and change a person’s heart at His pleasure.
He has promised to change the hearts of all believers. But that doesn't explain why Jesus warned either non-elect or elect. Can you?
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The question has been answered over and over, and this constant badgering is not anymore conducive to a healthy discussion.
Nonsense. The question has been dodged over and over. You have failed to answer WHY Jesus bothered warning the non-elect or the elect. Can you? Just tell me what His point was? Free Will pov CAN tell you.
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Unless you tell me your answer so that we may bask on your intellectual glow regarding the vast knowledge of man-centered-self-determining-freewill, I will answer this question no more.
Since you haven't answered it at all, your comment is irrelevant.
The answer is clear: Jesus died for everyone, and He was warning them to believe in Him in order to avoid dying in their sins.
You not only don't have a better answer, you have no answer.
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Frankly, I feel cheated because no matter how honestly I answer, the only way come back at me is to tell me that I am dishonest. Apparently I have given you too much credit.
You feel cheated?? You haven't answered my question, though you claim you have. What about me? I didn't get my question answered. Did I say you were dishonest?
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Regarding your post that followed, I see more of the same things - more rhetoric and insults. There is no point in responding to your post anymore. It would be a waste of time to think that a fair response will actually be given. I use to gamble a lot and I learned that one must quit while he is ahead. Since I have been trying to be patient in our discussion, and all I get are these, it is a signal for me to pause or quit entirely. Since I do not see any justifiable reason to continue to hope for that a reasonable discussion will be generated with you, I then have to excuse myself from responding to you because through your posts now I am aware that you are not here to argue the issue but the personality.
Why can't you just answer the question directly? If Jesus was warning the non-elect, why did He do so? For what purpose, given your pov?
If Jesus was warning the elect, again, why did He do so? For what purpose?
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Honestly, because this site if full of Christians I expected to have a discourse with a little more substance.
Substance comes with answers, which you haven't provided.
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But I feel short changed.
I feel so sorry for you. But you haven't answered my question.
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In fact some here even congratulate people for rediculing others. As if they are happy to see people in their camp can unreasonably snarl at the other guy. I have disagreements with unbelievers on other non-Christian sites where the decorum is far better than this. I am sure that you will disagree and take this as a weakness on my part and probably has another comment to make and I can expect it from you. If I will need to suffer more insults, erroneous or another unfair response, so be it. Better that than be un-edified if I let myself be further sucked into your mode of debate. Therefore, this could be my last response to you, unless there is anything of substance and reason.
If, instead of whining, you just answered the question, or at least dealt with the issue of Jesus warning either the non-elect or the elect, we could have moved on. But, you haven't answered the question, nor even discussed the issue at all. Sad.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:18:16 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: tdd1975
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You are quite mistaken. God still considers mankind to be "in His image", for Gen 9:6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man, and 1 Cor 11:7 says, "For a man ought not to have his had covered, since he is the image and glory of God;, and James 3:9 says "With it (our tongue) we bless our Loord and Father; and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;.
Therefore, your pov that man is "created in the image of fallen man" is obviously not Biblical. I recommend more study.
If we are already the image of God then we would have no need of being conformed to the image of Christ who is the very image of God.
Are you disagreeing with what these Scriptures are saying? I never said we "are the image of God", as you think. We are created in the image of God. Do you see the difference? It's fairly important to distinguish the difference.
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(Romans 8:29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(John 14:8) Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
(John 14:9) Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Once again, the reformed answer questions by simply quoting verses, thinking that answers the question, or maybe trumps the other poster's verses. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:20:35 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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