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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:34:20 PM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: EricB
But then the point stands that accountability, and the resulting judgment are a script. It's "written" into the story that people "should" respond but don't, yet are treated like they could have when they couldn't. You say a "script", generally it is called God's salvation plan. I prefer salvation plan; but, in any event, the results are the same. Yes, God planned or "scripted" His creation. Frankly, why would anyone assume that God wouldn't plan or "script" that which He created? Then, the whole concept of "accountability" loses it's meaning. It's all as it were, apart of a story.
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It's not so much about Heven per se being an "entitlement", but since the only other place besides Heaven is Hell, then you might as well say that "lack of eternal torment" is also not an entitlement, but that's supposed to be a punishment, yet in this "script" setup, it was God's original intention for most people. God created everything perfectly including Adam and Eve. Adam brought condemnation upon himself, and us, by sinning and man brings further condemnation upon himself with every sin he commits. Still, as you say, it definitely was God's plan to have Adam sin and put into action His salvation plan by which He is glorified through Christ. And that's why the other side is accusing your view of making God the cause of sin
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God does say that His glory is made manifest in the destruction of the wicked. He hardened Pharoah's hard to manifest His glory. Now, these are God's words, should we disagree because they sound disagreeable to us? "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
This passage is discussing Israel, a nation of people God was judging as opposed to Gentiles whom He was spreading His grace to, not individual people or everyone in a particular group being predestined for wrath as opposed to other individual people being elected for grace. No, God is not the "potter" of only Israel. Paul makes this clear in verse 24 of Romans 9 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Still, the particular example being used is that of Israel. quote:
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Paul uses the example of Isaac, Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh to show how the people were chosen ("elected") by God for His purpose and not by their own will in the first place, and how God raised them up to show his power, and then hardens, all according to His will, and chooses others (and once again, individual salvation is not even mentioned. The very context of Jacob and Esau from Malachi 1:1-4, 3:6, and even the original Genesis 25:12 account is discussing nations!). Jacob and Esau were individuals. The election was to the role of fathering the chosen nation. Jacob was individually chosen to that role. Still, they were representing the nations that would come from them. It is not about God personally hating the men, and this used to prove that He has a whole class of people He hates and thus refuses to offer salvation to.quote:
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BTW, I didn't see any indication of anyone having an attitude of "getting theirs".
Nobody puts it that way, but it is implied in the statements many make that particular election is necessary for God to be praised or for "us" to have any hope, and then that some think the damnation of everyone else also seems to be just as much part of the reason to praise of God because He saved them from that. I don't think this implies "getting theirs". To have a theology of particular election doesn't imply an arrogance of any kind. The fact that God is worthy of praise no matter what or how He decides is perfectly biblical. If He condemns people to death - it is just and right - because whatever God does must be just and righteous simply because - He is God. God commands us to love our neighbor, it is not a sign of love to take any joy or consolation from the “death of the wicked”. And the fact that our aim is said to be becoming LIKE HIM should be a big clue that hating someone unconditionally and scripting them to condemn themselves is not compatible with His nature! quote:
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This is kind of semantical. Put the last two statements together: "God illumines their minds...it appears their faith...is not mere pretence". The point is, He makes them believe they are believers, but it's only a misleading. I’m not convinced this “faith” comes from God, at all. In fact, I disagree that it does. We have scriptural evidence that many have some type of faith but not saving faith. Rather, it appears to be a type of faith produced by the human mind and not the faith which God gives. Well, that's what Calvin himself said. If he's right on U, L and reprobation, then he's probably right on that! If he's wrong on one, he's most likely wrong on the other. (Both premises do seem to need each other). quote:
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But still, they realize that a person is not going to be behaviorally transformed at or even before the evangelist's invitation. But that seems to be what Washer and the other Lordship people are demanding. They too use the argument that "'beliving' [salvation] has become 'too easy'" I'm at a disadvantage not knowing these individuals; but, from what you've described I can see a lot of problems. The evangelist's "invitation" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with salvation. But, if one is "truly" saved - there WILL be a change in behavior. Christ is clear in Scripture that a saved individual produces fruit. There's a thread on Washer in the "Church" section. In his view, the evangelist's invitation is basically bringing the "sheep" in, and they are already regenerate. quote:
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Mixing this perfectionism with a monergistic outlook, it now becomes more feasible, hypothetically, as God could instantly transform upon "regeneration", so that they would have all the "fruits" when the evangelist approaches him, so therefore, anyone not having these fruits was just not regenerated. This then naturally leads to judging other's fruits. But where do we draw the line? What exactly is "no fruits"? The "instant" of regeneration is unknown to us and "fruit" has no part in it. As individuals, other people's fruit is not our business. Besides, not all fruit is apparent to others. You ask "what exactly is no fruit". I think that would be the one who continues to live a lifestyle of sin and rebellion against God. I, for one, have been educated on this thread that there are theologies which teach this is quite possible. quote:
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And no preacher is saying "you are saved though you live like the devil". Actually, some are. This is a principle taught by the Free Grace Movement. According to it, all that is necessary to be considered saved is to have "once" believed. Although, they teach a Christian should lead a godly life, if he doesn't he need not worry since he once "believed".
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They say you are saved in spite of it (Rom.5:8), now start to act like it, and grow in Christ. They can't see the end of this process, or where it will be anytime in the future, so they can't declare him not really saved then. Yes, of course, Paul teaches "and such were some of you"; but the operative word is WERE. If a sinful lifestyle continues, you are not one of these and cannot consider yourself saved.quote:
If the person is still living that way years later, then they will probably question his salvation. But to demand it at the time of conversion, with his "not living like the devil" as the determining factor, then salvation is by works, and monergism avoids this implication by simply attributing the ability to do the works to God. No one can "declare" someone to be saved because none of us knows the heart of another. We have only their "actions" to go on. I'm not sure what you mean by "...and monergism avoids this implication by simply attributing the ability to do the works to God.". It's not an implication of a works gospel to understand that if someone doesn't clean-up his act he should not consider himself saved. Scripture teaches that for a true believer all things have been made new; therefore, they should walk in the newness of life(Rom 6:4).
Well, people are deciding that most Christians today have no fruit. This is really a tangent, as I know all Calvinists do not go that far. And again, it is hard to go on actions, because we cannot see inside them, nor again can we see the future.
< Message edited by Eric B -- 8/8/2008 6:17:18 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:37:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
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So, the remnant is chosen according to those who believe, not without any reason that the reformed cannot come up with. To them, it is an arbitrary choice, but this passage says differently
Wrong!! This is a denial of all the scriptures that plainly state that we are chosen before faith.
What am I denying? If your pov of God's "choosing" is not arbitrary, then what is it based on?
I agree that our election is before we believe, because He did His choosing "before the foundation of the world", and believe me, I ain't been around that long. But our difference is you think our election is individual, and the Bible says our eleciton is "in Christ", or corporate. iow, God choose to give savlation to "all believers".
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(Romans 11:7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Called elect before they obtained salvation by faith.
(2 Timothy 2:10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Called the elect before they obtained salvation by faith in Christ Jesus.
None of this proves anything of your pov. I really don't know why you posted these. Of course God chose before anyone believed. That doesn't prove your pov. But what He chose was "those in Christ", or those who would believe in Him.
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(James 2:5) Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Eh, what does this verse prove to you?
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Chose the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom not because of anything in them.
You think that means that God's choosing is arbitrary, then? Well?
I think this verse speaks of the fact that there is nothing inherent in them that warrants being heirs of the kingdom. However, faith is not an "inherent" quality. It's just a response to the presentation of facts, propositions, etc. The verse is speaking of the fact that God hasn't chosen people on the basis of inherent qualities, talents, skills, etc.
If you disagree, then your only point can be that He chooses qite arbitrarily. Does He?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:49:55 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Bottom line is does God have a right to with His own as He pleases or not?
Another bottom line: Does God have the right to renege on any of His promises?
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If man were good or even neutral I could see you having a point. But we aren't.
Man fell. We are not made in the image of a Holy God anymore but of sinful fallen man.
You are quite mistaken. God still considers mankind to be "in His image", for Gen 9:6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man, and 1 Cor 11:7 says, "For a man ought not to have his had covered, since he is the image and glory of God;, and James 3:9 says "With it (our tongue) we bless our Loord and Father; and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;.
Therefore, your pov that man is "created in the image of fallen man" is obviously not Biblical. I recommend more study. 
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(Genesis 5:3) When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
Eh, don't your own children (if you have any) resemble you? What is your point with this verse? You've proven nothing. This verse is about genetic resemblance, for heaven's sake.
The Biblical pov is that murder is wrong because man is the "image and glory of God", whether you know it or not, and we aren't to curse men either, for the same reason.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:54:26 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What am I denying? If your pov of God's "choosing" is not arbitrary, then what is it based on? IOW, On what criteria does God use to choose whom He will elect?
You will never get a correct answer to this question from a Calv/Ref.
I went more than 14 pages trying to get a non-arbitrary answer with no avail.
All they will say is "for His glory and pleasure" and the like.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:54:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
What do I not read that is plainly posted? Is it y'alls interpretation of Scripture, or what you say?
How am I selective?
Your post:#32607
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God can not choose(elect) with out reason & purpose,
He doesn't... Though His choice isn't because someone did something...
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If it is all God & nothing of man, God is not judging us righteously, but only making random arbitrary decisions based on whim.
You are attributing human qualities to God?
You a David Hunt fan?
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You wouldn’t want a god who would step outside the bounds of justice,law, & reality which y'alls interpretation of Scriptures has Him doing.
For what reason did God allow Satan have at Job? What wrong did Job do to have God remove the hedge of protection? Other than to make a point?
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To teach us & to bring us into the truth (John 16:13 & 1John 2:27)
You have man already there prior...
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What is it that I selectively quote?
what was plainly written?Was it what others said, or quoted from Scripture?
Your post:#32607
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That purpose was so God might show His power in Pharaoh. It is not said that God raised him up to destroy him.
Strange, you didn't give this as a reason before...
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God's power might have been shown by Pharaoh yielding to his power.
Nope... Wishful thinking...
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Pharaoh's own conduct made it necessary for God to abase him/judge him.
If there was truly the case God wouldn't have changed Pharaoh's mind we he agreed to let them go...
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That would be God making someone to do what HE does not want them to do.
God did that very thing... Pharaoh said they could go and God changed Pharaoh's mind so that he wouldn't...
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God commanded Pharaoh what God wanted him to do, let HIS people go.Why do you thing that God would Harden Pharaoh's heart for any other reason but out of judgment for hardening his heart first?
Because when Pharaoh said they could go God changed Pharaoh's mind that he wouldn't let them go...
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Do you not know God's mercy is in His judgment?
I wonder if those outside the ark felt His mercy....
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I say that if Pharaoh was set any were else, He would have more accountability than were God did actually set him. For God is infinitely mercy, even in judgment.
I say you're wrong... Those placed in authority are more accountable...
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God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go, Pharaoh resisted God. This is disappointment.
Read again... Pharaoh agreed to let them go and God changed Pharaoh's mind so he wouldn't let them go...
(Exo 4:21 NIV) The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
God harden Pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the people go. Go figure...
Further...
Exo 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
He moved Pharaoh to go after them and God later sent Pharaoh to his watery grave...
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Why not tell her the truth which I put down?
Because it's not the truth...
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That is what you believe from what I've heard from y'all.
You don't read or hear well by your own admission...
John
Proverbs 21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 5:58:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
No, because repentance can not be a gift. IF it is, that would make God fully & directly responsible for the repentance of the world, just because HE didn't want to give it.
If repentance doesn't come from God who gave it to man? I believe the bible says man gets everything from God.... Our daily bread is of God, but not repentance?
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Then comes the question, By what criteria does God use in choosing whom He will give Repentance?
Certainly not those who believe themselves to be righteous enough to deserve it...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 7:36:27 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What is the need to change the mind that is able to repent?
John
I mean God changes his mind based on someone repenting.
Please explain inability when God:
1. Commands men to repent
2. Desires men to repent
3. Waits for men to repent
4. Rejoices when men repent
5. Changes his mind when men repent
I just don't see it.
If, like SureHope, you will agree we are unable because we are unwilling,
then I think I can present to you a different view of sovereignty that
will make more sense and be more consistent by balancing justice and love.
Look forward to your response, John.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 7:44:48 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
You aren't living in the tensions. You have chosen sides
Not really, TDD.
I am quite Calvinistic as to the doctrines of sanctification and perseverance.
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We aren't to pit scripture against scripture but we are to live by every word of God.
Yes, I guess we are all guilty of that, myself included.
But I really do try to see both sides and my thoughts are
to study more when I see contradictions.
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The same God that said He is not the author of sin (which we both agree with)
also said that every good and perfect gift comes from Him.
OK. So how can God decree sinful acts, then?
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When you take credit for your own repentance, you deny the second.
Ouch!
I never thought of "taking credit" for repenting. Post-salvation it is
actually an act of worship for me.
Pre-salvation it is simply me recognizing my condition,
"coming to my senses", if you will.
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To take credit for anything that has been given to us as a gift is to rob Him of glory.
Agree.
But you must balance this with the fact that man must respond.
Do you agree man must respond? If you do, then how is he unable?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 8:25:53 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
You aren't living in the tensions. You have chosen sides
Not really, TDD.
I am quite Calvinistic as to the doctrines of sanctification and perseverance.
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We aren't to pit scripture against scripture but we are to live by every word of God.
Yes, I guess we are all guilty of that, myself included.
But I really do try to see both sides and my thoughts are
to study more when I see contradictions.
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The same God that said He is not the author of sin (which we both agree with)
also said that every good and perfect gift comes from Him.
OK. So how can God decree sinful acts, then?
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When you take credit for your own repentance, you deny the second.
Ouch!
I never thought of "taking credit" for repenting. Post-salvation it is
actually an act of worship for me.
Pre-salvation it is simply me recognizing my condition,
"coming to my senses", if you will.
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To take credit for anything that has been given to us as a gift is to rob Him of glory.
Agree.
But you must balance this with the fact that man must respond.
Do you agree man must respond? If you do, then how is he unable?
If someone hits you over the head and heals you of blindness, how much of a decision did you make for your ability to see?  Zero. And neither did Paul.
So let's give credit where credit is due; it all goes to God. "Everything good comes from above", including our response to God as Ezekiel 36:27 says, "And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and obey my laws." So non-reformists need to refrain from wanting to take credit for what the Spirit does in them. The Spirit causes us to believe God, the devil causes us to reject him. That's why our struggle is no against flesh and blood and the battle belongs to the Lord, not to us because only Jesus has victory over Satan, not us. John 10:28, "...Rather, it is the Father living in me that is doing the work." But only born again Christians know that. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 8:26:26 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Scripture refers to repentance as a gift at least twice that I know
of right of the top of my head. Acts 11:18 and 2 Ti 2:25
What are you going to do with Scripture that says a wicked man can repent?
Isaiah 55:7(NIV)
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and
to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Isn't this a conditional statement?
Jeremiah 36:3(NIV)
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster
I plan to inflict on them, each of them will turn from his wicked way;
then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."
Perhaps they will repent?
Eze 33:11(NASB)
"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure
in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way
and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die,
O house of Israel?'
If God takes no pleasure in the a wicked man's condemnation,
but to the contrary, desires him to turn, how is man unable?
Jonah 3:10(NASB)
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way,
then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He
would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
If God has changed his mind based on man's repenting, how is man unable?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 8:30:43 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Scripture refers to repentance as a gift at least twice that I know
of right of the top of my head. Acts 11:18 and 2 Ti 2:25
What are you going to do with Scripture that says a wicked man can repent?
Isaiah 55:7(NIV)
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and
to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Isn't this a conditional statement?
Jeremiah 36:3(NIV)
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster
I plan to inflict on them, each of them will turn from his wicked way;
then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."
Perhaps they will repent?
Eze 33:11(NASB)
"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure
in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way
and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die,
O house of Israel?'
If God takes no pleasure in the a wicked man's condemnation,
but to the contrary, desires him to turn, how is man unable?
Jonah 3:10(NASB)
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way,
then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He
would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
If God has changed his mind based on man's repenting, how is man unable?
So are you saying that God makes mistakes and reverts to plan B when plan A doesn't work?  Sorry, friend but God doesn't make mistakes. He knows what we will do and more importantly, he knows what will get each of us to repent and believe. That's why he broke Jacob's hip when Jacob wrestled with Him. God is no dummy and he doesn't make mistakes. So when God "changes his mind' He's simply enticing men to turn to Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 9:42:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Please explain inability when God:
1. Commands men to repent
2. Desires men to repent
3. Waits for men to repent
4. Rejoices when men repent
5. Changes his mind when men repent
I just don't see it.
I don't see God changing His mind.... Nor do I see the need for God to change the mind of that which can obey and repent on its own...
quote:
If, like SureHope, you will agree we are unable because we are unwilling,
Man is unable because he can't nor is he willing...
quote:
then I think I can present to you a different view of sovereignty that
will make more sense and be more consistent by balancing justice and love.
That's ok I shed those old beliefs long ago...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 9:44:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Agree.
But you must balance this with the fact that man must respond.
Do you agree man must respond? If you do, then how is he unable?
Man only responds because of God...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 10:57:54 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Please explain inability when God:
1. Commands men to repent
2. Desires men to repent
3. Waits for men to repent
4. Rejoices when men repent
5. Changes his mind when men repent
I just don't see it.
I don't see God changing His mind.... Nor do I see the need for God to change the mind of that which can obey and repent on its own...
quote:
If, like SureHope, you will agree we are unable because we are unwilling,
Man is unable because he can't nor is he willing...
quote:
then I think I can present to you a different view of sovereignty that
will make more sense and be more consistent by balancing justice and love.
That's ok I shed those old beliefs long ago...
John
Right. Non-reformists need to read Romans 7:13-25 because Paul explains beautifully how we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. Only the Holy Spirit can transform our hearts to believe and do God's will.
Romans 5:6 explains that we are God's enemies, not his advocates. And that's why we need a savior.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 11:00:54 PM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline
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Freegrace,
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Your point is moot. He was directly speaking to a group of unbelieving Jews who were going to die in their sins unless they believed in Him. Of course He IS the solution for the whole world, but He gave a specific warning to a specific group of people, along with the specific solution. You haven't explained WHY He did, in light of reformed pov. I suppose you have the answer. And I suppose that the answer is free will. I will accept that if the bible did not tell us that the sinner left to himself will not understand the gospel (1Cor2:14). I will accept that if the bible does not tell us that man is a slave to sin and does only the bidding of his master (Rom 6:16; 2Peter 2:19). I will accept that if the bible did not tell us that they did not listen because they were never enabled by the Father (John 6:44, 65). I will accept that if the bible did not tell me that we found God even when we were not seeking Him (Rom 10:20, Isa 65:1). I will accept that if the bible does not tell us that God prepares the heart (Proverbs 8:35; Phil 2:13). I will accept that if the bible did not tell us that God gives us faith as a gift (Eph 2:8; 1 Cor 12:9). I will accept that if the bible did not tell me that all that I have I received from God (I Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 15:10). I will believe it if the bible did not tell us that even as Christians the Lord is constantly at work with us which apparently for you is all too natural for unbelievers without the amending of the will by the Spirit (Phil 1:6). I will accept that if the bible did not say that our competence does not come from us (John 15:5; 2 Cor 3:5).
You gave this verse:
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John 8:24
"I said therefore to you, that YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS; for UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM HE, YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS."
And accuse me of changing the topic. Because your point was that this is proof text for the docrtine of free will. Funny you should choose the book of John because in this very book, the Lord in many occasion explain why men do not believe and die in their sins.
All you need to do is read the whole book to see that those who do not believe never were given the grace to believe.
I love that verse but it is never a verse telling me of my abilities it simply the verse that reminds me of my dependence on God. That in my inability He is the one the strengthen me. Whether I asked or not.
Just like that verse you may have other verses that show choices and commands but they do not suggest ability either. What we have before us is the comparing of scriptures. The bible is clear that we are unable therefore we choose the wrong one and we disobey. If we are all naturally enlightened, and if our sin does not have that strong a hold in our hearts, man would certainly have been easily convinced and would have chosen to be saved because he would have understood that there no other logical choice. The cost is far too severe to choose death that able men should be definitely choosing the better one. A true illuminated mind and a true free will will make man to definitely choose eternal life.
Let it be known to all that we cannot do anything apart from God and we can not say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
For apart from me you can do nothing John 15:5
No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3
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OK, just explain WHY Jesus warned a group of unregenerates and gave them the solution that they would have to apply in order to avoid the danger if they were unable to apply that solution on their own. Everything is to be done by us if commanded by God. But then again we have a merciful God that in His good, even if we don’t ask, in His good pleasure will strengthen us. In this case God causes men to believe through His Spirit. He sees their need He provides them strength to do His will.
It is God who works in you (us) TO WILL and TO DO His good pleasure. Phil 2:13
For apart from me you can do nothing John 15:5
No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3
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Apparently, you are unable to answer the question, so you just change the subject with this nonsense. Just like a constant drip of water. This is the easiest escape clause for someone who does not want to debate the issue but rather personally attack his opponent.
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And I agree. Our difference is how He chose. You believe He chose randomly; some for heaven and some for hell, without any preconditions at all. Who says about random? Nothing is random with God?
He predestined us to be adobped as his sons. Eph 1:5
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Your post was quite long, and you included many passages that have zero to do with my question. It is obvious that you cannot answer my question. Re: Rom 9:14-16, mercy and compassion are given to those who return to the Lord, per Isa 55:7. What is the "preconditon" in Isa 55:7 for the Lord's compassion? "returning to Him". The Free Will pov answers my question of WHY Jesus gave the solution to the unregenerate Jews, along with the warning to them. In compassion and mercy, which we call "love", He warned them of the danger they were heading for, and gave them the solution, because they were able to apply it to their danger and escape that danger. Please explain to me why my answer to my question is in error, since your pov disagrees with mine. Thanks. Dangerous? Only to those who will not acknowledge that the glory of God is not dependent on man. God depends on God. God does things for His glory. He needs nothing from us that He Himself cannot give. How is that a dangerous thought?
The focus of the gospel is not that man has the ability. The focus of the gospel is that God is merciful and loving. It is true that He provided the solution but it is equally true that He gives the strength to believe which is very much absent from man.
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. John 10:26
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
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Is all you can do is change the subject rather than answer the question? All your questions have already been answered. Do your homework. Can you please answer WHY Jesus warned them and also gave them the solution, if they can't apply the solution? I have answered the way I had to answer with the way scriptures teaches us and with the manner that is glorifying to God. I choose my words carefully to not step over the line and raise man before God. For it is by the grace and mercy of God that poor undeserving stiff-necked sinners he would impart the gift of Faith. I have been truthful with what I believe and have been honest to you what I believe. If you wish for me to bow down to the ever-powerful doctrine of man-centered-self-determining-freewill, you are mistaken. You will need better than an eisegesis of scriptures to convince me. I will not bow because the bible is clear that man is a stiffed-necked-blind-sinner that apart from the enabling of God will not believe and will not understand. I will not bow because the bible is clear that the Sovereign God is not afraid to tell us that He can come and change a person’s heart at His pleasure.
The question has been answered over and over, and this constant badgering is not anymore conducive to a healthy discussion. Unless you tell me your answer so that we may bask on your intellectual glow regarding the vast knowledge of man-centered-self-determining-freewill, I will answer this question no more. Frankly, I feel cheated because no matter how honestly I answer, the only way come back at me is to tell me that I am dishonest. Apparently I have given you too much credit.
Regarding your post that followed, I see more of the same things - more rhetoric and insults. There is no point in responding to your post anymore. It would be a waste of time to think that a fair response will actually be given. I use to gamble a lot and I learned that one must quit while he is ahead. Since I have been trying to be patient in our discussion, and all I get are these, it is a signal for me to pause or quit entirely. Since I do not see any justifiable reason to continue to hope for that a reasonable discussion will be generated with you, I then have to excuse myself from responding to you because through your posts now I am aware that you are not here to argue the issue but the personality.
Honestly, because this site if full of Christians I expected to have a discourse with a little more substance. But I feel short changed. In fact some here even congratulate people for rediculing others. As if they are happy to see people in their camp can unreasonably snarl at the other guy. I have disagreements with unbelievers on other non-Christian sites where the decorum is far better than this. I am sure that you will disagree and take this as a weakness on my part and probably has another comment to make and I can expect it from you. If I will need to suffer more insults, erroneous or another unfair response, so be it. Better that than be un-edified if I let myself be further sucked into your mode of debate. Therefore, this could be my last response to you, unless there is anything of substance and reason.
< Message edited by balbas -- 8/8/2008 11:41:00 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 11:02:07 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
What do I not read that is plainly posted? Is it y'alls interpretation of Scripture, or what you say?
How am I selective? Your post:#32607 I did not understand the Post I responded to..
I am sorry for that
Just don't hold it against me
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God can not choose(elect) with out reason & purpose, He doesn't... Though His choice isn't because someone did something... Tell me then, what the Criteria for God electing?
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If it is all God & nothing of man, God is not judging us righteously, but only making random arbitrary decisions based on whim .You are attributing human qualities to God? I'm not talking about qualities, but mandates.
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You wouldn’t want a god who would step outside the bounds of justice,law, & reality which y'alls interpretation of Scriptures has Him doing. For what reason did God allow Satan have at Job? What wrong did Job do to have God remove the hedge of protection? Other than to make a point? James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials;
:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience.
It was actually to prove to Satan that Job was upright and will not cure God.
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To teach us & to bring us into the truth (John 16:13 & 1John 2:27) You have man already there prior... Prior to this, someone needed to tell you the truth, When you have the Spirit, He tells you.
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God's power might have been shown by Pharaoh yielding to his power. Nope... Wishful thinking... Nope, actual truth.
How wouldn't God's power be shown in Pharaoh yielding?
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God commanded Pharaoh what God wanted him to do, let HIS people go.Why do you think that God would Harden Pharaoh's heart for any other reason but out of judgment for hardening his heart first? Because when Pharaoh said they could go God changed Pharaoh's mind that he wouldn't let them go... Didn't answer my question.
Why do you think that God would Harden Pharaoh's heart for any other reason but out of judgment for hardening his heart first?
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Do you not know God's mercy is in His judgment? I wonder if those outside the ark felt His mercy.... I wonder if those Christians who died in 911 felt that way.
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I say that if Pharaoh was set any were else, He would have more accountability than were God did actually set him. For God is infinitely mercy, even in judgment. I say you're wrong... Those placed in authority are more accountable... You have a warped view of God.
You think that God takes pleasure in putting man where he would have the most accountability just so God will judge more stringently?
Consider:
The Broken Heart of God:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6
"I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me." Eze 6:9
"For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt." Jer 8:21
"Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughters of my people!" Jer 9:1
"What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Isa. 5:4
"Jesus wept." Johnn. 11:35
How do Calvinists/Ref.s reconcile this with their view of "Sovereignty"?
One Calvinists/Ref.s recently said to me, "God is not heartbroken over the world... the Gospel is not a Gospel of a heartbroken God unable to save."
In their view, God gets everything that He wants, man's will cannot resist God's will. Therefore, everyone God wants to saved will be saved, everyone that God doesn't want will not be saved. God does what God wants, and therefore God has no reason to be broken hearted.
Basically, when the god of Calvinists/Ref.s looks at the world, He secretly thinks to Himself, "There is nothing wrong with the world because I am in total control. This is exactly how I want the world to be, everything is going as I planed. It is good. Look at the beautiful world that I have created and control."
But that is not the God of the Bible:
How do you reconcile that with the fact that God is heartbroken over sin.
BEFORE THE FALL:
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Gen. 1:31
AFTER THE FALL:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6
God rejoiced at what His omnipotence created. But God grieved over the sin that man's free will created. God did not create sin, God does not control sinners as far as their moral actions are concerned. They are in rebellion against God's Sovereignty of their own free will.
(Jesse Morrell)
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God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go, Pharaoh resisted God. This is disappointment. Read again... Pharaoh agreed to let them go and God changed Pharaoh's mind so he wouldn't let them go...
(Exo 4:21 NIV) The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. This is God knowing in advanced that He will harden his heart.
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God harden Pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the people go. Go figure...
Further...
Exo 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
He moved Pharaoh to go after them and God later sent Pharaoh to his watery grave... This is after Pharaoh hardened his heart first.
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Why not tell her the truth which I put down? Because it's not the truth... Then why is it in y'alls doctrines?
Here is what Y'all say:
God hated your husband. Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Your husband was created and born as a vessel of wrath. Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
:21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
God did not "elect" him for His own Glory. Rom 9:17 For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Rev 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.
He had no hope even from the beginning of creation.
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not, He would have still ended up in hell no matter what.
God ordained him to hell. The contraposition to Eph 1:4, Rev 13:8, Rev 17:8 & Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Your husband is in hell for a glorious purpose...ect... Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Rev 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.
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That is what you believe from what I've heard from y'all. You don't read or hear well by your own admission... Why are you so cynical?
One mistake.
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No, because repentance can not be a gift. IF it is, that would make God fully & directly responsible for the repentance of the world, just because HE didn't want to give it. If repentance doesn't come from God who gave it to man? I believe the bible says man gets everything from God.... Our daily bread is of God, but not repentance? Okay, I'll admit that repentance is a gift just as one can change his mind is a gift.
My Dad repented the other day of speaking harshly to his wife(my step mom)
My dad ain't even saved.
How'd that happen if it is only for the elect?
Fact is, non-saved people repent all the time, they just refuse to submit to God.
Repentance is not an exclusive gift that only the lucky lotto winners of the elect could have.
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Then comes the question, By what criteria does God use in choosing whom He will give Repentance? Certainly not those who believe themselves to be righteous enough to deserve it You didn't answer the question.
Or is it that you can't?
I know why you can't.
Your theology won't let you.
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That's why I've always maintained that Arminians are secular humanists who pay Jesus lip service. 