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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:28:36 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
God merely "picked and chose" without any obvious reason from among the creatures He created... That is the simplest for of Sovereign grace theology. It is not up to the creature but up to God. Pelagian theology requires God to have an "obvious reason". Pelagian Theology could not stand a reason-less God. A God that does not satisfy man's logical leanings.
By this the Pelagian believer reduces the religion of free grace to a religion of human initiated salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:32:18 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
I think the whole thing boils down to,
a) God is not willing for any to perish, bible quote
b) This means His salvation is sent to all,
c) Some respond to His drawing and wooing,
d) Some deliberately refuse, using their will to say no
e) Some respond but do not fully respond, ie. refuse to repent,etc. refuse
Jesus as their Lord.
f) His ministering angels are only sent to those who will be heirs of sal-
vation.
This means they are sent to help those who God knows will respond,
accept and receive with their free will, It also says God will draw them,
the ones He already knows won't refuse.
g) when it says some are created for destruction, i believe it means that
those He also knows from the beginning will refuse Him, He went
ahead and created anyway, even though He knew before the
beginning they would refuse Him, this is how "He created them for
destruction" by knowing they would refuse Him but going ahead
otherwise everyone created would only be the ones that will not refuse
Him, so He
h) He is an equal and fair creator, not just choosing to create those who
will accept him only.
i) this is what is meant by those he created for destruction, He is not mean, and unjust, the bible says he is not unjust, tht He is unwilling for any to perish, but knows ahead of time, even before they were born, those that are doomed becasue of their own choice to refuse Him.
You forgot one thing. God is just and sovereign. Man does not seek God, a sinner and dead in sin. Try factoring those in.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:38:24 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
Raising them up and forcing them is two different things. He helped them gain power he didn't help them to be evil, they were already rejecting Him. Amen to that, AboundinginHisgrace!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:39:36 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
I, too, am an ex-smoker and I DID quit by my own willpower. I didn't pray about it, I didn't wear a nicotine patch. Just put my last cigarette out and never lit up another one. That's what I chose to do, and I did it! GreatDivide,
Glory to God, nonetheless.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:48:13 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
I'm not arguing any of this. My position is that a man without understanding of his path to freedom from the bondage of slavery may still flee by that road, only to be shown its wonders. The men who were coming to Jesus for the wrong reasons, that is, not to ask Him for freedom, were there for selfish reasons, and Jesus' rebuke touched on this, I believe. I understand now, McFatty. But our bondage is doubly not as simple as being in chains. We are also blind to see any wonders. We are even called dead in sin. All of these are against us to know and understand the writing on the wall. Even if we read it, by our own marred abilities, we could never understand them.
What I am arguing about is our very ability to appraise spiritual things which is clearly explained in 1 Cor. 2:14, John 6:65, Romans 3 - are under the power of sin
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:48:26 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
I don't know why non-reformists try so hard to resist giving the credit to God's power for transforming them instead of giving credit to their own free will for their faith.  I, for one, am so thankful that my life is in God's hands not my own, that I can't understand why some people want it to be the other way around. 
The reason you "don't know why" is because you clearly don't understand, nor have taken the time to actually listen and understand the non-reformists pov.
If you had, you would know that all the non-reformists on this thread readily and happily give God ALL the credit for our regeneration and salvation.
Our differences are that you think God pulled your strings so that you would believe, while the Bible says we were created to seek God and when we believe, God saves.
You give credit to God for some things, but not all.
Since you've never met me, how can you make any claims on what I give credit for? Do you have a crystal ball or something? From your posts, you sure make a lot of claims about others, and you have only just started on this thread.
quote:
After all, you have to find something to boast about even though boasting isn't a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
OK, now you charge me with the sin of boasting. On what basis, may I ask? Are you familiar with Matt 7:1? Jesus said, "Do not judge lest you be judged." What makes you think that I "have to find something to boast about"? Since you do not even know me, you have no basis for making any such statement. What is clear from your posts, though, is your thoroughly biased view of what you think others' views are. So far, you haven't even been close.
btw, do you consider judging others to be fruit of the Spirit, or lust of the flesh?
quote:
So you boast about your faith even though Eph. says that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."
Could you show me even one post where I "boasted" about my faith? If you can't, I think you should consider apologizing for your slanderous and erroneous comment.
quote:
But you don't believe that verse any more than you believe much of the bible.
These kinds of statements demonstrate that you aren't concerned about serious discussion at all, but rather just bashing the views of others with antagonistic statements of which subjects you can't possibly even know. Here, you are telling me that I don't believe "much of the Bible". How can you even possibly know what I don't believe?
quote:
You again show that you don't believe Romans 3:11 that "no one seeks God."
No, what I "show" is that my interpretation is different than yours. And I think yours is wrong, since Rom 3:11 is a direct quote from Psa 14 and 53, of which the subject is FOOLS. Furthermore, IF Rom 3:11 was speaking about everyone in the human race, as you think, then what was the point of Jesus promising that "seek and you shall find" in Luke 11:9? Was Jesus merely teasing us with that promise?
Also, Acts 17:27 is plain enough. God created mankind to seek Him. So, there is NO WAY that Rom 3:11 speaks of everyone.
quote:
Thus you just plain don't believe the bible, but instead, in the power of man which makes you a secular humanist.
Actually, I don't believe any of what you post. All you seem to be able to do is attack the pov's of others with whom you disagree with an antagonistic spirit.
Do you think that an antagonistic spirit is fruit of the Spirit or lust of the flesh?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:51:03 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
God merely "picked and chose" without any obvious reason from among the creatures He created... That is the simplest for of Sovereign grace theology. It is not up to the creature but up to God. Pelagian theology requires God to have an "obvious reason". Pelagian Theology could not stand a reason-less God. A God that does not satisfy man's logical leanings.
By this the Pelagian believer reduces the religion of free grace to a religion of human initiated salvation.
Since the Bible is so clear that salvation comes from God, your statement is meaningless.
btw, do you think that grace is NOT free? What is the "religion of free grace" anyway? If you disagree that grace is free, how much do you think it costs?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:04:44 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
Faith, of course, if foreign to the heart of the unbeliever. That isn't an issue to me. As an unbeliever, I was explained to that I was a slave to sin. It took me a long time to even consider that, but once I did, I eventually asked God to show me the path to get me out of this slump. He did, in the mercy He promised everyone in Romans 11:32...
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
"all" is used both times here, not just once. One can't pick and choose.
Of course I don't believe sinners deserve eternal life. That's folly. Nobody, not you or I or Billy Graham or Jerry Falwell or Charles Manson or Hugh Hefner deserves eternal life. That's where this mercy comes in. I am glad to hear that you prayed despite of who you WERE. I was never a praying man also. I was never even a religious person. Till God made me to get down on my knees.
I know then that the power of God was upon me because I was able to call Him Abba Father.
Phil. 3:3 We have no confidence in the flesh
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:13:52 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
One more thing. OK, Jesus came for the Jews first, correct? He shared with them first and they rejected Him. So you(Calvinist) are saying that Christ came for the Jews first, but willed them to reject him? That just doesn't make sense.
Of course it would not make sense because that is a twisting of the Calvinistic position. We believe that God did not WILL them to reject Him. That is all entirely natural human reaction because we are darkness and He is light.
John 1:1-4.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:21:16 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
God merely "picked and chose" without any obvious reason from among the creatures He created... That is the simplest for of Sovereign grace theology. It is not up to the creature but up to God. Pelagian theology requires God to have an "obvious reason". Pelagian Theology could not stand a reason-less God. A God that does not satisfy man's logical leanings.
By this the Pelagian believer reduces the religion of free grace to a religion of human initiated salvation.
Since the Bible is so clear that salvation comes from God, your statement is meaningless.
btw, do you think that grace is NOT free? What is the "religion of free grace" anyway? If you disagree that grace is free, how much do you think it costs?
You call yourself Freegrace and yet you believe that it was YOUR WILL that made you fit to receive the gift of life.
I believe that I owe everything to God. Even my faith, even the will to break from sin, even the will to believe in Jesus. Because I did not have that will, I was a slave of sin and I hated the Light. My faith was wrought to me by God and not conjured by my own will. I was a rejecter of God. Not an iota in me accepted Him. I was in rebellion but I received mercy. He enabled me. I believe that everything that I have is by grace. Not merited by MY OWN WILL everything is by grace.
Phil. 3:3 We have no confidence in the flesh.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:28:30 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
Oh no. There's that entitlement mentality again that everyone deserves heaven just because he was born. You couldn't be further from the truth. It's the exact opposite. None of us deserves heaven. It's a gift from God to those to whom he is pleased to give it as Matthew 11:25-27 explains perfectly. It's God who does the choosing as He tells us all over the bible. "You did not choose me. I chose you.'
John 15: "If you belonged to the world the world would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world for I have chosen you out of the world. And that's why the world hates you."
Notice that Jesus did not say; "I have chosen the world" as you claim he did.
Once again, God is the one who makes the decisions of the universe, not man because only God is sovereign. So all you are doing is showing man's wisdom which says; "I choose who gets to go into God's kingdom." God says; "Oh no. Only I have the right to make that choice" as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the worker.
So reformists don't make up our own bible to suit our itching ears. When God said; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated," He meant; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
Good Job, Carico.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:33:17 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
Question, If I am not mistaken don't Calvinist believe people are born again then they accept Christ? If that is the case how did people in the old testament chose God? They were not born again. People could not be born again until after the death/resurrection of Christ. So if that is the case how could the old testament saints please God? There sins were not forgiven only postponed until Christ, hence why they didn't go to heaven when they died, but paradise (Abraham's Bosom)(They are in heaven now because Jesus took captivity captive and now when Christians die they go to heave because their sins are forgiving). So they had the free will to chose God. They were not born again and then chose God. They chose by their own freewill. Look at this verse. Deut 35:29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done I know we cannot please God until we become Christians, but to say that you are changed then you accept God doesn't line up with the bible. AIHG,
The word you would like to dig into is Regeneration which Calvinists believe as being Born Again.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:35:36 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
To reject something it has to be offered. To chose something it has to be offered with the option to reject it. To reject something that is as good as eternal life means that the mind is unable to process.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:37:23 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
Actually it is 'many' rejected Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:40:46 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The biggest issue is their limited view of God's sovereignty
which forces them to put their crazy aunt (author of sin)
up in the attic.......
Ah, the alleged Achille's heel...
Been addressed a few times previously.
Not my writing, I believe it is Pink.
If God foreordains reprobation does this not obliterate the distinction between positive-negative and involve a necessity of force? If God foreordains reprobation does this not mean that God forces, compels, or coerces the reprobate to sin? Again the answer must be negative.
If God, when He is decreeing reprobation, does so in consideration of the reprobate's being already fallen, then He does not coerce him to sin. To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin.
Nice work on quoting Pink.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:42:56 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
I am saying it is unfair to hold people responsible for something they can not do. Yes! Aren't we able to reject that is why we are responsible for it?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:50:19 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
No one is arguing that God isnt the source of the new heart and new spirit, He most definitely is. He is pleading with man to come to Him to receive the new heart and spirit. God makes the offer of a new heart and spirit, man can choose to accept or reject the offer.
Where was this offer made, Sola?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:54:46 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
See I think this is where I'm getting confused as to what your beliefs are. You may have to go into more detail for me as to what you believe as far as free will. I know you believe man has a choice between salvation and hell, and I say indeed he does. We obviously know that people choose according to their hearts desire. In John 3:18-19 we see men rejects Christ because they love darkness. However I think God works on some so that they no longer love darkness and they accept Christ. I want to know why and how you think some come to not love darkness and they choose the light instead? Do you believe the difference between us who decided to follow Christ and those who don't is our decision making ability or what? Because we definitely made the better choice. Good question, Contend4Christ!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 9:57:25 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
The question is answered in Romans 1. When God makes evident His existence, power, nature and attributes to man, the fool (atheist) simply rejects the Truth of His existence. It's called "suppression of the Truth". Suppression of truth is from the flesh. Acceptance of it is the work of the Spirit. The natural man cannot understand spiritual things. He calls them foolishness. 1 Cor 2:14.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 10:03:07 PM
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doublecross
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quote:
The very FACT that they rejected the Truth that God made evident to them proves they had free will. Remember, free will means only freedom of choice when faced with options. When God makes His existence evident, man is faced with a choice: to either believe or reject that Truth. The very FACT that they rejected the Truth that God made evident to them is that they have darkened understanding. Darkness hating the light. Sin loving iniquity. Natural man not understanding spiritual things.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 10:19:25 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
Question, If I am not mistaken don't Calvinist believe people are born again then they accept Christ? If that is the case how did people in the old testament chose God? They were not born again. People could not be born again until after the death/resurrection of Christ. So if that is the case how could the old testament saints please God? There sins were not forgiven only postponed until Christ, hence why they didn't go to heaven when they died, but paradise (Abraham's Bosom)(They are in heaven now because Jesus took captivity captive and now when Christians die they go to heave because their sins are forgiving). So they had the free will to chose God. They were not born again and then chose God. They chose by their own freewill. Look at this verse. Deut 35:29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done I know we cannot please God until we become Christians, but to say that you are changed then you accept God doesn't line up with the bible. AIHG,
The word you would like to dig into is Regeneration which Calvinists believe as being Born Again.
If you notice in the OT, God gave the Holy Spirit to people at will. In other words, the Holy Spirit did not permanently dwell inside believers. He came upon them. A good example of this is with Saul. God took away His Spirit from Saul and sent Saul an evil spirit. So it's no coincidence that Saul couldn't be righteous when he had an evil spirit, nor could he be righteous without the Holy Spirit giving him knowledge and understanding. "Everything good comes from above." That means that all righteous behavior comes from God's power, not man's sinful nature.
Arminians simply don't understand the power of God. They think He just sits up in the clouds and watches events.  They couldn't be further from the truth. God is omnipotent as well as omniscient. That means that he controls Satan and everything that happens in the world. He can bind Satan in an instant. So when he doesn't, then Satan is doing what God allows him to do.
God determines where we will live as well as he determines the rulers of the earth. So man isn't as powerful as he likes to think he is. As Jesus says; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."  So whenever anyone is tempted to take credit for what belongs to God, he can only be humbled.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 11:45:28 PM
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doublecross
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Carico,
What do you mean "tempted"? It is already apparent that people here are attributing their faith to their own capable wills. 
Phil 3:3 "put no confidence in the flesh"
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2008 3:33:10 AM
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doublecross
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quote:
Since the Bible is so clear that salvation comes from God, your statement is meaningless. I do not think you know the true meaning of your statement.
Salvation comes from God because God sent His Son.
Salvation comes from God because the Son came to die for sinners.
Salvation comes from God means the Spirit enabling men to understand and believe the gospel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2008 3:53:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
If man truly has no free will choice, then what is the purpose of all the warnings in the Bible ?
Why does God warn man not to do something that man has no freedom to choose either way ?
Makes absolutely no sense ( If Calvinism were true)
God clearly says He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone,and pleads with man to repent and live:
"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live! (Ezek 18:31-32) "
God's very clear man needs a new heart. Equally He is as clear man is unable to give himself a new heart. Can you give yourself a new heart? Can you circumcise your own heart?...nope, you can't. That's why God say HE will do it.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. -Ezekiel 36:26
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. -Deuteronomy 30:6
What makes no sense is man thinking his mind, his will, his spirit, his heart can choose for God without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Many just have no concept of the devastating effects of the Fall on mankind.
No one is arguing that God isnt the source of the new heart and new spirit, He most definitely is. He is pleading with man to come to Him to receive the new heart and spirit. God makes the offer of a new heart and spirit, man can choose to accept or reject the offer.
We see no evidence of God making the offer of a new heart/spirit. He simply says He will perform the action so that man will be able to obey Him(Eze 36:26)....and one command to be obeyed is - to believe.
It is always God who does the "choosing" first, for if He did not we would never choose Him. So, this "freewill" to choose for God people think they have can never be realized apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. IOW, God must first change the heart so that man might freely choose Him with a heart that is now truly free.
Once God regenerates, man is free from the dominion of Satan, he is no longer blinded by the god of this world and is now able to freely choose light over darkness.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2008 3:59:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You seem to be laboring under the impression Cornelius is the ONLY person mentioned in Scripture, or for that matter in the whole world. Not at all. I've noted that Cornelius is an example of a principle. Hopefully that should clear up what you seem to be laboring with concerning my pov.
The "principle" falls flat since there are many "examples" where the result is not the same.
quote:
quote:
The fact remains, a fact which, btw, proves your theories wrong, that many receive and BELIEVE the light given to them but it does them no good - they remain unsaved.
If you had followed my complete thought on this, you would have known that, like Cornelius, God provides "more light" in stages. I'll try one more time. There are many who have believed the "light" God gave them yet have NOT received any "more light". This is why I say your "principle" concerning Cornnelius doesn't hold-up.
quote:
Could you define what you mean by the term "libertarian free will"? I define free will as freedom to choose between options available.
If your definition of "LFW" doesn't equal my definition, you are arguing against a phantom. I don't argue a false definition of FW.
LFW - means "that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections..... One acts freely in a situation if, and only if, one could have done otherwise. "
Does that about sum up your definition?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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