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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 10:25:55 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
So why do you think that atheists deny that God exists? So they can go to a hell that they know exists because they prefer eternal agony over eternal bliss? 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 10:33:45 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Odeliya:
Dear Carico and Contend,
That is what i was talking about , what FG said- it would be unfair to hold some responsible for not believing.
Carico:
Who said it would be unfair to hold people responsible for unbelieving?
FG:
That isn't the question now, is it. The question dealt with the "inability" to believe, and being held accountable for that inability. Can you address that please?
Thanks, that is what i am asking you, Carico. I am saying it is unfair to hold people responsible for something they can not do.
Calvinistic view of God is a tough sell - it states ,as you just said above,that God considers it fair to ask people to do something they are unable to, and send them to hell for not being able to . It is similar to sending a person born crippled to hell for not being able to obey command to jump off his wheelchair and run.
BTW, not all calvinists agree on this evidently. Priceless held a different opinion from Carico's as i just recently quoted.
But no problem,we are debating here. Of course everyone thinks that his version of God is the right one 
I know what you're saying. But I don't think you know what you're saying. What you're actually saying is that God's plan to create some for noble purposes and others for common use is unfair. Once again, all men who want to be the boss think they know better what's fair and what isn't than their bosses do as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the worker. But as Paul tells us in Romans 9:19, "Who are you O man to talk back to God?' Shall the clay say to the one who formed it, 'why did you make me like this? No, the clay is at the mercy of the potter.
So once again,the whole key is that no one knows if he has been chosen. Therefore all men are completely responsible for their actions attitudes and beliefs. Thus, no one can say; "God didn't choose me." So men will be held accountable for their actions, attitudes and beliefs.
So the beauty of God's plan is that only He knows who His elect are. That makes Him sovereign and also makes men responsible at the same time. So it's the only plan that can work. It's also biblical. Otherwise, if God gave the decision to man, every man would think he deserves heaven. So man isn't honest or humble enough to decide what God wants, only God is. 
And versions have to reconcile the whole bible together to be correct. Mine does.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:27:24 PM
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Sola37
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God is not far from each one of us
Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:34:04 PM
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Sola37
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So when a Calvinist sins , did the Calvinist make the choice to sin, or did God make it for you ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:38:30 PM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
So why do you think that atheists deny that God exists? So they can go to a hell that they know exists because they prefer eternal agony over eternal bliss?
Read Romans 1 about why people reject the knowledge God
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
< Message edited by Sola37 -- 7/19/2008 11:45:22 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:43:01 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That's it? From everything I've written, you give me verses where all may not mean all, so you assume all doesn't mean all on the ones which would otherwise be devastating to limited atonement?
You are "free" to interpret as you wish.
All is not always all.
World is not always world.
This is not my teaching or my creation.
These are literary devices, figures of speech.
These mandatory literary devices are applicable.
The Arminian is interpreting and inserting his own
subjective, individual interpretation into the language.
So do these literary devices count only for the verses which teach free will and not for those which teach calivinistic points?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:45:47 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Carico, I replied to your post earlier, asking for contextual analysis of the verses I previously quoted, since I looked at each of your quoted verses in context. Would you be kind enough to do this for me?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:57:10 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
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OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 11:59:51 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
God is not far from each one of us
Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
Wow those verses are pretty hard to argue. I do not know how it could be anymore Black and White.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:14:17 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Carico answer my noah question.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:17:59 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Carico answer my noah question.
It bothers God that man is evil at least as much as it bother parents when their children do evil things. But good parents won't allow their children to continue to commit evil and neither will God. It's that simple. God will not be mocked. If he allowed himself to be mocked, he would be a wimp and not to be respected. But he's not. So once again, the bible is about God, not the righteousness and goodness of man and how much man deserves heaven for the evil he commits.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:21:57 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Carico answer my noah question.
It bothers God that man is evil at least as much as it bother parents when their children do evil things. But good parents won't allow their children to continue to commit evil and neither will God. It's that simple. God will not be mocked. If he allowed himself to be mocked, he would be a wimp and not to be respected. But he's not. So once again, the bible is about God, not the righteousness and goodness of man and how much man deserves heaven for the evil he commits.
Why would it bother you if your child was evil if you forced him to be that way?
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:27:00 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Carico answer my noah question.
It bothers God that man is evil at least as much as it bother parents when their children do evil things. But good parents won't allow their children to continue to commit evil and neither will God. It's that simple. God will not be mocked. If he allowed himself to be mocked, he would be a wimp and not to be respected. But he's not. So once again, the bible is about God, not the righteousness and goodness of man and how much man deserves heaven for the evil he commits.
Why would it bother you if your child was evil if you forced him to be that way?
Again, my children don't know the future any more than any of us knows the future. They only respond out of their least stressful option. If God is drawing them, they will resist evil, regardless of my actions. If God is not drawing them, then they won't see anything wrong with the evil they commit. All you have to do is talk to atheists to see how proud they are of rejecting God. And since they don't believe that God exists, then they don't blame God for their behavior.
Also, God doesn't force anyone to be evil. He uses Satan to blind our eyes so we'll turn to God for help, not to ourselves. And since none of us knows if God is drawing us, then we think our choices are coming from us instead of what God has ordained. But again, those whom he is not drawing, see nothing wrong with evil so from their perspective, they're doing nothing wrong and prefer to keep doing the evil they do.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:31:48 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1784
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Does the following sound to you like God forced mankind to be evil?
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. (Rom 1:20-24) NLT
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:35:07 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK explain this to me. I am going to link a passage from gen during noah's life. Gen 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Carico answer my noah question.
It bothers God that man is evil at least as much as it bother parents when their children do evil things. But good parents won't allow their children to continue to commit evil and neither will God. It's that simple. God will not be mocked. If he allowed himself to be mocked, he would be a wimp and not to be respected. But he's not. So once again, the bible is about God, not the righteousness and goodness of man and how much man deserves heaven for the evil he commits.
Why would it bother you if your child was evil if you forced him to be that way?
Again, my children don't know the future any more than any of us knows the future. They only respond out of their least stressful option. If God is drawing them, they will resist evil, regardless of my actions. If God is not drawing them, then they won't see anything wrong with the evil they commit. All you have to do is talk to atheists to see how proud they are of rejecting God. And since they don't believe that God exists, then they don't blame God for their behavior.
Also, God doesn't force anyone to be evil. He uses Satan to blind our eyes so we'll turn to God for help, not to ourselves. And since none of us knows if God is drawing us, then we think our choices are coming from us instead of what God has ordained. But again, those whom he is not drawing, see nothing wrong with evil so from their perspective, they're doing nothing wrong and prefer to keep doing the evil they do.
OK God created Satan. God also created Adam and Eve. If Satan did not have free will, then God willed Satan to sin. OK if that is case. Then God created Adam and Eve, then He will Satan to blind their eyes so that they would sin. Then He willed Adam and Eve to sin. In turn that would make God the author of sin and evil wouldn't it. If that is what you believe you do not interpret the bible the way I do.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:36:30 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Does the following sound to you like God forced mankind to be evil?
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. (Rom 1:20-24) NLT
Bob
I am not saying God forced them Calvinism does.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:37:15 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Does the following sound to you like God forced mankind to be evil?
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. (Rom 1:20-24) NLT
Bob
As usual, non-reformists never reconcile all scripture together.  So again, put those verses together with Romans 11:8,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so they could not see and ears so they could not hear, to this very day." Notice that it says, "God gave them..."
Then put your verses together with; Matthew 11:25-27, Matthew 22:14, and romans 9:11-25. And until you put scripture together instead of try to make it contradict itself, you will never understand God.
Romans 1:18-31 is explaining the wrath of God on mankind. So God is in control. But again since man doesn't know if he's being called, then he's still responsible for his actions.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 12:42:05 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Does the following sound to you like God forced mankind to be evil?
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the ea | | |
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